[CSE] Iron Tager CS2 -> CSE Changelog

[Manta]

one thing I'd like to know:

5A > 5B > 5C > 6A > 2C > AC, Egadget

Is this possible without the corner?

[A.X.I.S.]

That is a standard BnB.

[Manta]

but there's surely a maximum range it will work without magnetism. I've seen people forced to go 5A > 5B > 5C > 6A > 3C > 236A > 236A due to range issues.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Manta

[TagerTime]

Wow Tager is god like right now.

J.B>j.A>2C works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=h-8Owss2w_c#t=251s

Looks like j.A got a level buff as well, probably a level 2 or 3 poke now or they changed the untech time, either way that's neat!

that jumping B was a counter hit.

However this combo is from non counter hit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-44Lu8tRNXY#t=8m44s

i love how Tager has air to ground combos now

So far Tager is winning the large majority of his matches in all the Japanese csx videos and his losses are mainly due to timeouts. And as time goes on he seems to be getting better not worse. When the console versions is released and we have training mode we will see his true power unleashed! i cant wait to hear orions and osunas hands on report.

Edited November 14, 2011 by TagerTime

[Isorropia]

that jumping B was a counter hit.

However this combo is from non counter hit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-44Lu8tRNXY#t=8m44s

i love how Tager has air to ground combos now

So far Tager is winning the large majority of his matches in all the Japanese csx videos and his losses are mainly due to timeouts. And as time goes on he seems to be getting better not worse. When the console versions is released and we have training mode we will see his true power unleashed! i cant wait to hear orions and osunas hands on report.

Unless j.B has counter hit carry (which, unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't), it's irrelevant that it was a counterhit to start that combo. Also j.C > collider has worked since like...CS1.

And tager has NOT been winning the 'large majority' of his matches. He's winning more than he used to, that much is certain, but by no means is he winning the 'large majority' of matches that we're seeing in CSX videos. It's still clear tager has major issues fighting zoning chars, and you don't have to watch many videos before you see tager losing and the opponent with 80%+ hp remaining.

[TagerTime]

Unless j.B has counter hit carry (which, unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't), it's irrelevant that it was a counterhit to start that combo. Also j.C > collider has worked since like...CS1.

And tager has NOT been winning the 'large majority' of his matches. He's winning more than he used to, that much is certain, but by no means is he winning the 'large majority' of matches that we're seeing in CSX videos. It's still clear tager has major issues fighting zoning chars, and you don't have to watch many videos before you see tager losing and the opponent with 80%+ hp remaining.

im pretty sure ive seen just about every csx tager video. Certain tager players haven't been winning much but many others have been winning most of thier matches. many losses were close or due to lame timeouts.

[Isorropia]

And many of the wins were also close. I'm sorry if I'm being a bit of a downer here, but I just feel that you're setting up unrealistic expectations for tager in CSX. Yes, he's much improved, but it doesn't mean he'll just start steamrolling, you still have to work for your wins and if your opponent guesses right more often than you they will still likely win. Hype for new tager changes is good, but rose coloured glasses are not.

[Manta]

Going back to te jump in thing. It looks like we're going to be able to do many more damaging combos that start off with a jump in. Mostly due to the 5B > 5C gatling. And if j.A has been upgraded to a level 3 (as j.A, 2C suggests, but does not confirm) then we also have: j.B (from really high up) > j.A x n, 5B > 5C....

[Osuna]

but there's surely a maximum range it will work without magnetism. I've seen people forced to go 5A > 5B > 5C > 6A > 3C > 236A > 236A due to range issues.

There is pretty much no reason to ever do that combo without the intention of following up the hammer with something. I've gone for the the Egadget quite a few times this weekend and I'm reasonably confident at least once was against Makoto and if it works on Makoto it works on everyone.

Another reason why that combo makes no sense is that you could have just as easily done 5A 5B 5C 6A 2C AC 236B>236A or 2D for more damage/heat if there was such a problem. It sounds more to me like he was trying to push someone into a corner.

Also info dump.

J.A has for sure had a level increase and it Feels huge. I for the life of me could not tick throw off it and it was easy to combo off of. In all honesty I personally miss having a level 0 move, but the numbers don't lie I was getting decent damage and great meter off of it. Sometime in wonky air to air situations too. I take back everything I said about 5A 5B being meaningless versus air. I've tagged people low enough for that to get me a collider several times. The 5B launches enough on its own that it'll make 5C whiff a lot on certain characters (Hakumen get's so horizontal so fast!), but you can go straight from 5B to AC so it's fine.

Charged Bsledge has only 2 levels uncharged and fully charged. You'll get a normal Bsledge if you hold it for anything less than the max time (Your welcome darlos McGrumpy-person). It's also an incredibly stupid move which like its predecessors does nothing in the only match ups it is supposed to matter in. To top it all off, the frame advantage nerf makes it generally worse as a move. Good for corner combos though. The freakiest and most confusing thing about the whole weekend is that people were bursting 5A combos out of GF. It is a strange feeling.

VC 236A to punish a burst was kinda meh. You have to rapid it to get much damage out of it, but I landed a counterhit of a meaty hammer in the corner against an air neutral tech and got 4.8k improvising. There was a MTW in there somewhere, but still 4.8k on the first try is pretty crazy. It makes me want to do ghetto corner mix ups.

I found myself going for GF a lot now. Not just because of the 5A buff, but because it was the only time I knew for sure I'd get to finish my combo without magnetism running out. You have to pay close attention sometimes and cut it short or change it mid way to not let them get full screen on you because mag ran out. 5D's range buff is pretty big. The max range seems to be the edge of the little ball that appears in front of his fist, similar to but not the same as with 4D.

6B is almost 100% meaningless in combos now. It doesn't combo into Asledge, and the proration nerf puts it below 6A in comboability. The 6A armor buff was completely meaningless the whole weekend. MTW got so much use. I won more than a few matchs with Terra break, but off of air hits with MTW you can usually 3C afterward.

Also AC 4D whiff 3C MTW on Valk is hilarious. It looks like it is Way too far away to hit, but it does. It even feels wrong when you know it should work. I remember someone asked whether J.2C was easier to combo from and the answer is yes it is. But not to the point where you always can, but I definitely manage pick ups from heights I normally could not and it's not even just an issue of 5B being faster than 2B, which it is. You have more time to follow up. Though I did have 1 weird experience where I hit a latest J.2C and went for 2B out of habit and it did not pick up. Makes me wonder if the buff was to the way they fall (or maybe how fast tager falls?) or something, but in the end I didn't do it a second time so coulda been anything or nothing.

I now know why all of those Tagers keeps 5Cing after SB still. The fact that SB Sometimes gets the full wall bounce messes with my head. Especially when the reward is very noticable damage/heat wise- it just messes with your head. Getting a raw collider was kinda frustrating when I had mag since I couldn't figure out how to get more damage and GF. In the end I went for ACwhiff 5B 5C 6A 2C for a tech trap. I never got the hang of proper combo applications for 6C besides the 1 bnb.

I can't remember what this note was about specifically, but I seems to have done a lot of damage with a 5A? Like more than the projected amounts? I don't know.

GF whiff is kinda awesome. I find myself wishing I could do it after every collider, but I think once I know what to do after a magged collider I'll feel better about things in general. Also I get the feeling that 360B 3C MTW doesn't work on everyone. Also I couldn't punish Hazama's kick super with 720 anymore. Oh and barrier push back is Huge. I instant barriered 2 normals and my 360A whiffed completely and so did what they were trying to do. 360B feels like it got a range nerf, but I might be crazy.

Well, that's the best I could do, I hadn't kept up on videos so I'm sure a lot of this is old news/embarassing.

[Manta]

There is pretty much no reason to ever do that combo without the intention of following up the hammer with something. I've gone for the the Egadget quite a few times this weekend and I'm reasonably confident at least once was against Makoto and if it works on Makoto it works on everyone.

Another reason why that combo makes no sense is that you could have just as easily done 5A 5B 5C 6A 2C AC 236B>236A or 2D for more damage/heat if there was such a problem. It sounds more to me like he was trying to push someone into a corner.

So is it now the case that even if you hit 6A at max range, you can hit with 2C afterwards? The reason I said the 5A > 5B > 5C > 6A > 3C > 236A > 236A combo was if they were pushed too far away by the initial attacks to get that 2C in. Also, doesn't 6B > 5D > 236A work? Also, Raw magged collider surely goes into.. GF whiff, 6C > j.2C, 3CAC fling, j2.C 5B, > j.A > j.C > j.D. That fling might cause a side switch too.

I'm also noticing a general reversal of the trend for Tager from CS2. Tager's changes to CS2 focused around reducing his damage from normals and piling it onto his 360B combos. in CSX we seem to have lost much of our command throw damage in exchange for being able to get similar damage (And much more heat) from a good combo starter like 5C and in general getting MUCH better abare.

[A.X.I.S.]

Interesting report Osuna.

j.A may be a level 2 or 3 air normal meaning air to ground combos are gonna be so much easier, I am gonna try to take advantage of this.

[Osuna]

So is it now the case that even if you hit 6A at max range, you can hit with 2C afterwards? The reason I said the 5A > 5B > 5C > 6A > 3C > 236A > 236A combo was if they were pushed too far away by the initial attacks to get that 2C in. Also, doesn't 6B > 5D > 236A work? Also, Raw magged collider surely goes into.. GF whiff, 6C > j.2C, 3CAC fling, j2.C 5B, > j.A > j.C > j.D. That fling might cause a side switch too.

I'm also noticing a general reversal of the trend for Tager from CS2. Tager's changes to CS2 focused around reducing his damage from normals and piling it onto his 360B combos. in CSX we seem to have lost much of our command throw damage in exchange for being able to get similar damage (And much more heat) from a good combo starter like 5C and in general getting MUCH better abare.

Ah I misunderstood. You'd normally go for a gadget finger at that distance mag is good again. At super long distance 6A 3C 22D did not work though, so it might be worthwhile to sledge (or SB) at times like that. At least I remember it that way. The 6A 2C combos are sometimes necessary when they are magnetised and close to you since 3C AC will make them cross up too far to catch if you do it too close.

And you cannot GF whiff without a knock down before the collider. Well, you can, but so late it wouldn't be worth it. As for 6B 5D asledge, Iunno. I haven't kept up with videos and no one did it at the convention space as far as I could tell, so I don't have anything I can say about that, but duely noted. I take back my comments about 6B.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Osuna
I sounded insane

[A.X.I.S.]

Don't forget that you can jump back j.2C if they are close...or let them fling to the corner for shits.

[Osuna]

I actually tried Jump back J.2C once and couldn't catch them. They flew pretty fast and our jump isn't very good, but I heard other people were getting it. If it isn't an issue of timing then it was an issue of distance before the fling.

EDIT: Could I have ACx2 6C J.2C 3C maybe? Does ACwhiff 6C still work?

Edited November 14, 2011 by Osuna

[A.X.I.S.]

Yes ACx2C 6C still works.

With colliders added untech time it's even easier.

It's about as easy as j.D whiff>j.2C.

[Manta]

So that leads us to the question of what does GF actually need to see to count as a knockdown? It seems that 3C inherently has this property since 3C > GF works in isolation, even though they never actually touch the ground. The floorbounce part of AC does not count. Does that mean sparkbolt's wall bound counts as a knockdown (Because that's very similar to a 3C fall)?

[A.X.I.S.]

I imagine spark bolt wall bound property and sledges new air hit properties would count as down.

[tjtj012]

I imagine spark bolt wall bound property and sledges new air hit properties would count as down.

I can't really see the downside to the new sledge but I do think the new SB will be a major downfall

Sent from my Comet using Tapatalk

[Manta]

I can't really see the downside to the new sledge but I do think the new SB will be a major downfall

Sent from my Comet using Tapatalk

Wrong way around mate. The new tumble from sledge has killed Bgadget, but the new sparkbolt has mad amounts of untechable time and can be used to add MTW very late in the combo. Or fling people around for the lols.

[A.X.I.S.]

Spark's p1 is considerably worse so don't expect a lot out of it.

[tjtj012]

Wrong way around mate. The new tumble from sledge has killed Bgadget, but the new sparkbolt has mad amounts of untechable time and can be used to add MTW very late in the combo. Or fling people around for the lols.

Yea but isn't the wall bounce shorter and when it counter hit it returns to CS2 SB so the tech times are different right?

[Manta]

The rebounding distance is shorter, but the untech time is more, so you can always drag them into collider. Counterhit sparkbolt always was untechable until they hit the ground as far as I know. The shorter rebound is sometimes desirable as previously your opponent might bounce right over your head.

[A.X.I.S.]

At least counter hit spark bolt is the same as previous games.

But I like the new spark bolt.

Just give it better p2 and I'll be happier.

[Manta]

You can also charge them up much more quickly with VC iirc. Incidentally, if you break a VC with hammer or 720, do you still get the charge added to your bolt guage?

[A.X.I.S.]

You actually don't.

This was confirmed awhile back.

Edit: Some of you should really join the Skype chat.