[CSE] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[VR-Raiden]

Alright I'm probably gonna ask a stupid question but I just can't seem to find the thread I'm looking for.

If there is, can you guys point me to where I can learn option selects or at least Ragna's OS? I suppose while I'm at it, wasn't there a thread to learn everyone's gattlings or has that just all been completely moved to the Frame data/engine wiki part?

Sorry for the dumb question, but I'd really appreciate the help guys!

The Funny Things I Do with Ragna thread has a couple OS's in the first post. Speaking of I'll add what I found on the recent things I was messing with.

I dunno about the gatlings but you could always use the wiki or training mode to figure that out.

[Arvoyea]

Alright I'm probably gonna ask a stupid question but I just can't seem to find the thread I'm looking for.

If there is, can you guys point me to where I can learn option selects or at least Ragna's OS? I suppose while I'm at it, wasn't there a thread to learn everyone's gattlings or has that just all been completely moved to the Frame data/engine wiki part?

Sorry for the dumb question, but I'd really appreciate the help guys!

Gatlings were moved to the Frame data section. http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/ragna.html

[SolheartStud]

Alright thanks guys! By any chance is there one thread that has a list of general option selects? I remember a while back there was one. I believe it had a list of stuff everyone could do and even some things that only each specific character could only do but I can't seem to find it anymore.

[LuminAbyss]

You might wanna check the Beginner Forums or BB Gameplay discussion boards for that, I can't tell you right off the top of my head where it is.

Also VR-Raiden, I'll update the Gimmicks thread when I get home from work tonight.

[LuminAbyss]

Also, what would you guys think if we decided to compile a pressure and neutral guide/thread thing? I know that was one of (and still is probably) my weakest points learning to play him, and I'm sure it would help out a lot of other players, as well as refresh some info in our own minds.

I know the tutorial vid already kind of does this, but I was thinking more in-depth, like recommended strings against specific characters, things to go/not go for in certain match-ups, what kind of strings are good for what situations/set-ups, that kind of stuff. Again, the match-up threads kind of serve this purpose, but that information can get lost REALLY REALLY easily amidst all of the discussion. I was thinking of maybe centralizing it into one thing. Yay/Nay?

[VR-Raiden]

Well we did used to have a blockstrings/mix-up thread, so I don't see a problem with it. I think mix-ups are fine in the Funny Things thread but we don't have a specific thread for blockstrings or neutral game. If match up threads were more organized and useful info was compiled in the first post a lot of that could be covered there since it is often specific to who you're fighting. But it couldn't hurt imo.

[LuminAbyss]

I feel the same way, but I don't blame the match-up threads for being the way they are, they are mainly for discussion, it's hard to organize that stuff.

I just want this board to be more accessible to newer players to help them avoid the hurdles of bad info/not enough info/etc.

I don't care if our character is the most beginner friendly, or if he's S-tier, he still takes knowledge and strategy to play properly and beat people who can actually block and know how to beat his tools.

I'll wait on a few more opinions before I start anything though.

[Arvoyea]

I say yay. We need this stuff to be put into something more accessible. Maybe a video would be good, if someone's willing to do that. I can do that now, but I think someone better than me should do that.

[-Seo]

You'd be better off making a write-up about things like safe/un-safe strings, burst safe moves and etc first, then making a video to go along with it for visual reference and junk, afterwards. Either way, I don't mind this idea all that much, it'll be a nice thread to direct people to and junk.

[Tong]

These come naturally as you get better in the game imo.

We could make a topic about Ragna's option selects and gimmicks as this is the sort of thing that even an advanced player wouldn't know easily.

How and why to use them? Brief explanations are the best, since most beginners hate to read anyway.

This thread is excellent for beginners, and any player, to learn mixups, the core of Ragna's gameplay.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?8423-A-primer-on-mixups

Burst safe moves? Well, I'd rather to see them learning combos, blocking, pressuring and spacing first.

This is even advanced for us... not to mention kinda hard to pull off in the real thing. But yeah, we should compile everthing like a combo thread.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Tong

[VR-Raiden]

We could make a topic about Ragna's option selects and gimmicks as this is the sort of thing that even an advanced player wouldn't know easily.

How and why to use them? Brief explanations are the best, since most beginners hate to read anyway.

That topic already exists, though the title doesn't explicitly indicate it.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12309-The-Funny-Things-I-Do-With-Ragna

[-Seo]

Brief explanations are the best, since most beginners hate to read anyway.

I agree that explanations shouldn't be too lengthy, but they should also by no means be short and brief explanations unless it really is something that simple. I don't think this is something we should cater to people who don't want to read and, in the long run, learn.

[LuminAbyss]

These come naturally as you get better in the game imo.

This is true, that's why I know some people wouldn't be all for the idea. But we'd be facilitating that process and helping make smarter players faster. And if we get better, people have to work harder to beat us. And when they do, we got to work harder to beat them. Everyone levels up, everyone wins.

I'll edit the title to the Funny Things thread to make it more noticable for mix-ups/gimmicks/OSes. I just couldn't resist that title.

I'm glad you're all okay with the idea. How I'd like to kinda organize it would be something like

General Primer on Ragna's pressure

General Strings

[ The String Here ]: Explanation, how safe is it, what range is it best for, what mix-ups can be inserted into it, etc.

Character Specific Strings

[ The String Here ]: Explanation, same as above, but also explain how it's useful against that character, and what to do if that character has meter. For example, anyone will tell you whiffing things is horrible against Tager when he has 50 heat. That's just asking to be 720'd.

I don't mean to try and compile EVERY POSSIBILITY. Just enough examples so the players can know what to generally do against characters, and then make even more things up and switch it up as they go. Any more ideas to add?

[Callisto]

That would be immensely helpful, I've been trying to pick up my play in several games but I'm having a pretty hard time with footsies/pressure as I get back into BB. My execution is picking back up(I'm landing CID > dashunder 3C for the first time like, ever lol) but I'm having a hard time with things like mixups and baiting bursts so that I don't eat one right after using a RC.

[Arvoyea]

Can anyone give me help on how to do dash under 3C in combos? I can barely do it, and when I do it's invalid. I also found a combo.

at midscreen

5B 3C HF RC 6B 5C 5D DC 6A hjc J.C J.D jc J.D 214C dash forward 5D 623D 236C 214D or 623C 236C 236C crossunder 3C HF+followup.

damage is 3109 for DID ender.

[LuminAbyss]

Do you mean like, in the corner? That just takes serious grinding and practice, is all.

BE CAREFUL THOUGH, as proration will often invalidate it. Only go for it in combos you know prorate well. If you use 2 5Ds or 2 ID Straight Punches, or even 2 6As (or if your starter wasn't that great), then just use the drop kick, or don't even launch and just end with grounded Hell's Fang.

Anything specific about the cross-under 3C being difficult, or is it just in general?

[Callisto]

Can anyone give me help on how to do dash under 3C in combos? I can barely do it, and when I do it's invalid. I also found a combo.

I had a hell of a time learning it myself, I literally got it down maybe two weeks ago. You have to dash the second you hit the ground and immediately 3C after inputting the dash, I can tell you almost for certain that you just aren't inputting it quickly enough. As far as the 'invalid' part, it's probably just you're doing it too late, you can tell if it's not possible by when they tech, if they reach the ground, or close to it, it was possible, if they tech in mid-air well off the ground it was not possible within that specific combo.

[LuminAbyss]

There are combos where the proration allow them to tech near the ground (but too high to get hit by 3C). When in doubt, Drop Kick or Hell's Fang it.

[VR-Raiden]

but I'm having a hard time with things like mixups and baiting bursts so that I don't eat one right after using a RC.

There isn't much you can do to bait bursts if the opponent is doing them at the right times. If you have 50 heat you can bait one any time with a RC but that's usually taking guess. Common times you can bait bursts without meter are after doing anything that's jump cancelable, such as 5C, since you can jump cancel then block instantly. Also 2C and DS are burst safe, so if those hit and they burst from it, you can block in time.

Can anyone give me help on how to do dash under 3C in combos? I can barely do it, and when I do it's invalid. I also found a combo.

at midscreen

5B 3C HF RC 6B 5C 5D DC 6A hjc J.C J.D jc J.D 214C dash forward 5D 623D 236C 214D or 623C 236C 236C crossunder 3C HF+followup.

damage is 3109 for DID ender.

For dash under 3C you pretty much want to do it as fast as possible. Once you land from the ID, dash back and 3C toward the corner immediately. 3C hits pretty high up so doing it earlier is better than later. If they're teching too high when you do it really fast, it just doesn't work in that combo.

I'm not getting the CU 3C in that combo. Also if you land a 5B at that range midscreen, might as well do 2D RC combo, or 22C RC if you hit close enough for that. They do a lot more damage. That one works fine for when you already did 3C and aren't in 22C range though.

Edited April 4, 2012 by VR-Raiden

[BladeOfJustice7]

Am I the only player who thinks Ragna's high damage output is justified, since he has the second lowest health coupled with sub-par mixup, and a shitty super (carnage scissor)?

I don't get why he's bashed so much for having such a high damage output.

[YukiBlue]

Most of it is salt, But if I had to say---

Godlike Pokes

Damage/and/or carry from pretty much any of these pokes

5B (It's not a poke it is a way of life. A Religous symbol of everything evil)

Very high damage output from a lot of his slower moves such as 6B

It's Ragna. It's natural to hate the posterboy.

[Callisto]

There isn't much you can do to bait bursts if the opponent is doing them at the right times. If you have 50 heat you can bait one any time with a RC but that's usually taking guess. Common times you can bait bursts without meter are after doing anything that's jump cancelable, such as 5C, since you can jump cancel then block instantly. Also 2C and DS are burst safe, so if those hit and they burst from it, you can block in time.

Yeah so far I get them after the RC, it's just tough spending the meter simply to bait it when I need that to really get in there and kick some ass, lol. The only other thing that consistently baits them for me is corner throws, but it's not like I can just walk up and do those at will.

Am I the only player who thinks Ragna's high damage output is justified, since he has the second lowest health coupled with sub-par mixup, and a shitty super (carnage scissor)?

I don't get why he's bashed so much for having such a high damage output.

It's probably a temporary thing, I'd say the complaints are based less on his actual balance and more on the fact that the people complaining are seeing waves upon waves of Ragnas online and are losing to 5B > 5C > HF spam often.

It's Ragna. It's natural to hate the posterboy.

This too, not sure if any of you play SFxTK, but Ryu is legitimately busted in it and the salt is multiplied by the fact that it's fucking Ryu, lol.

[LuminAbyss]

Ragna is a strong character overall, that's why. He has good neutral, solid pressure, and a DP. To be honest, I don't see this ridiculous high damage output everyone complains about. He gets what he needs, because it is harder to get hits on opponents who block and play neutral well. I see most other characters hit the same damage as well (outside of a few), so I don't get it either.

So no, you aren't Blade, I agree with you as well. Except about Carnage Scissors, nigga, what are you doing.

[VR-Raiden]

I don't get why he's bashed so much for having such a high damage output.

Might have to do with how easy most of his high damage combos are (compared to some other characters). But it shouldn't bother you, he's nowhere near being broken, just let the haters hate.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Glad to hear that, sorry for hurting your feelings Lumin, I forgot how you felt about carnage scissors. I find his pressure is the least autopilot thing about him, maybe because I use hakumen and if I catch them doing b>c>gauntlet hades/death spike I get free damage from that.

Anyways, hakumen/ragna need high damage output to compensate for their terrible mixup game (I speak of hakumens mixup game without meter though).

EDIT:

Might have to do with how easy most of his high damage combos are (compared to some other characters). But it shouldn't bother you, he's nowhere near being broken, just let the haters hate.

I agree his combo execution isn't like rachel/valkenhayn. But like I said mixup with Ragna isn't easy either.