[CSE] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[WolfCrimson]

I mean I wouldn't be against it (MOAR RAGNA BUFFS), but I'm sure people would see it as unnecessary and something else they would have to worry about. I don't think there is a way to avoid anymore Ragna hate than there already is, plus i would like to use 2D more.

I agree with you, Ragna as he currently is does not need any more buffs.

[xlolxlolx]

if anything, it should have low invincibility like fafnir not head and body cuz that would just be retarded as you could just throw it out and rape standing overhead attempts for free

[Dont_Explain]

Oh god wakeup 2D on overheads would give us a CH 2D into 3k-4k. I can only imagine the salt.

[Godlike Assault]

2D as counter is like a fatal counter,they can't buff Ragna anymore,not now IMO

[LuminAbyss]

I actually hate 2D counter hit because I keep forgetting it doesn't give you OTG state unless you let them touch the ground after the bounce.

I HATE IT.

[Tong]

6B after it for good measure.

[Lucalibur]

6B after it for good measure.

Forever using as many 6Bs as i can in a combo in fear of the next patch giving it repeat proration, so i never suffered from 2D CH stopping me from 22C.

Edit: Ops, forgot about combo thread.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Lucalibur

[KayEff]

BBCSEX hitboxes are released. the only noticeable hitbox change is j.C (obviously). here is a comparison:

OLD

NEW

OVERLAP

my god that hitbox is beautiful

[Lucalibur]

Still smaller than CS1 Bang's 5A, but nevertheless a beautiful hitbox.

[WolfCrimson]

BBCSEX hitboxes are released. the only noticeable hitbox change is j.C (obviously). here is a comparison:

hitboxes.jpgs

my god that hitbox is beautiful

While I agree that this buff makes jC a strong normal, I don't like how it doesn't fit with the animation of the move. It seems like Ragna's sword is hitting at Ragna's 3 o'clock, rather than in front of him (aka 12 o'clock), which is weird.

BTW, are all new hitboxes posted on the wiki?

[KayEff]

yeah, they should be updated to their CSEX hitboxes.

[WolfCrimson]

So... I noticed that 6D has been nerfed and buffed in Extend:

Buffs: Floats opponent on normal hit.

Nerfs: P1 from 100 to 90. Foot invul duration decreased from being active during frame 1-28 in CS2 to being active during frame 10-25 in CSEX.

What does everyone think of the new 6D?

The foot invul nerf makes it so you cannot anticipate lows and beat them with one of Ragna's best starters, which lead into huge damage, and can trade or be beat before becoming active (since 6D has 26 frames of startup, while foot invul stops at frame 25). It launches, which is pretty nice, but old 6D hitting them means they were crouching to begin with, which enabled 5C > 6C to work. I personally like old 6D more. Had more use.

PS Thank GOD that KayEff changed his avi. The previous one was freaky.

Edited April 30, 2012 by WolfCrimson

[VR-Raiden]

What does everyone think of the new 6D?

The foot invul nerf makes it so you cannot anticipate lows and beat them with one of Ragna's best starters, which lead into huge damage, and can trade or be beat before becoming active (since 6D has 26 frames of startup, while foot invul stops at frame 25). It launches, which is pretty nice, but old 6D hitting them means they were crouching to begin with, which enabled 5C > 6C to work. I personally like old 6D more. Had more use.

I definitely preferred 6D when it didn't launch the opponent, at least for the fact that it makes the combo more annoying.

However I noticed a while back it seems they made the invulnerable area reach much higher, so for dodging "low" attacks it it seems better to me. It can now dodge any 2A except Tager's. The situation I tested it was Ragna doing 2A blocked > 6D, and the other character trying to 2A after Ragna's.

[WolfCrimson]

I definitely preferred 6D when it didn't launch the opponent, at least for the fact that it makes the combo more annoying.

However I noticed a while back it seems they made the invulnerable area reach much higher, so for dodging "low" attacks it it seems better to me. It can now dodge any 2A except Tager's. The situation I tested it was Ragna doing 2A blocked > 6D, and the other character trying to 2A after Ragna's.

OK, something's off.

I just checked the hitboxes for both CS2 6D and CSEX 6D.

I also did some tests in a Ragna mirror in training mode. I made the dummy Ragna do both 2A and 2B, and I tested 6D against those 2 moves, in both CS2 and CSEX.

In CS2, Ragna's hurtbox does not cover his feet during 6D, and the move description in the frame data states that it has foot attribute invul from frame 1-28. In practice, 2A beats 6D (which according to the frame data, is a foot attribute only move), but 2B will whiff (no matter how late I do 6D).

In CSEX, Ragna's hurtbox does cover his feet during 6D, and the move description in the frame data states that it has foot attribute invul from frame 10-25. In practice though, 2A will whiff, but it can hit Ragna out of start-up, and it can trade with 6D. 2B also whiffs, and it can hit Ragna out of start-up (though something feels off), and I do not know if it trades.

Now here are the problems that I see:

1. 2A did not change in terms of physical hit properties. It is a Foot only attribute move. Theoretically, it should whiff on both CS2 and CSEX 6Ds, yet it didn't. So I concluded that there's a problem with the CS2 frame data, in that EITHER 6D did not have true foot invul, but a lack of hurtbox over Ragna's feet which caused 2B to whiff but 2A to hit, OR, 2A had Body and Foot attribute. BUT, that's kinda not important now, since CS2's over and done with,

2. CSEX 6D framedata states that foot invul starts at frame 10. 2B has 9 frames of startup. So, theoretically there's not much leeway to when you can do a 6D to avoid 2B's hit; at most, Ragna can do 6D when the dummy's 2B is at it's frame 1. Yet it felt that I could do 6D later than that, which makes me doubt that the frame data is correct. Can someone confirm this?

Edited April 30, 2012 by WolfCrimson

[VR-Raiden]

Hmmm I messed with it a bit, I think it's really invul from frame 10 on but it's hard to say exactly. Did find that apparently 6D can even dodge Ragna's 2C as well. I'm dodging stuff when it looks like the 2nd of those CSEX 6D pics.

Edited May 1, 2012 by VR-Raiden

[WolfCrimson]

That's more of a change to Ragna's 2C than 6D, 2C is now Foot attribute only. So it whiffs againstRagna's 6D, Haku's 6B, and other foot invul moves as well.

[LuminAbyss]

Which makes no sense, since 2C hits in the middle part of the body. LOL GOOD WORK ARC SYS.

[KayEff]

you can use noel's 2B to see if ragna's foot invul starts at an earlier frame. it has a 7 frame startup and hits low, so it should whiff in 6D's foot invul.

i guess i'll experiment with it myself when i get back to my consoles.

[WolfCrimson]

So... anyone else bored by this version of Ragna?

He can combo everything into everything and get good damage off of it... feels like I don't even have to think about what combo route I should take, because it's always gonna include most of Ragna's specials (DS, ID, BE, HF/22C) and do around 4k damage, and get good amount of meter, so why bother? His combos are braindead. I don't mind his zoning footsies being good, just not THIS GOOD, I'd rather have ArcSys nerf his footsies a bit in favor of better mixup (like, seriously, make GH safe on normal block, make 6B a bit faster). He can keep his max damage potential, just let it not be accessible from every starter Ragna has (*exaggerating a bit*), only off of his good starters.

I didn't get this feeling of 'braindead' with CS2 Ragna, I had to work hard to do well with him. Hope ArcSys balances Ragna in BB3 in such a way that I get the same satisfaction I used to have in CS2 when using Ragna. Also, while we're at it, if they ever introduce Force Breaks or FRCs in BB3, Ragna should have one related to Deadspike. Either a Deadspike FRC (pretty much like Sol's Gunflame FRC), or a force break (I just had a brilliant idea where Ragna would have a force break that is a follow-up to Deadspike, where during the startup frames the force break would make Ragna very quickly pass through the opponent while the projectile comes out from the original side, so that they have to block it by pressing forward. Functions as a cross-up basically.)

Edited May 2, 2012 by WolfCrimson

[xlolxlolx]

the 6b shit is pretty stupid, guarenteed 40-60 meter with like no work at all.....at least cs1 combos still made you work for it by actually have to time BE somewhat

[WolfCrimson]

Agreed, it looks retarded.

[xlolxlolx]

the game's pace isnt fast enough to make fbs and frcs work effectively, the meter gain is just too slow overall

[WolfCrimson]

Slower meter gain than GG is not a reason why it won't work. Jin technically has forcebreaks, and he's fine.

[Tong]

Even Ragna players are saying he's braindead, wow...

Been playing Bang, and most of his combos are as "hard" as Ragna's.

That's how he plays, that's the point of the character... getting good rewards off anything and spending heat just to get it back in the same combo.

Not sure why you had that "hard work" feeling in CS2, the only thing that basically changed was for how long Ragna can extend his combos. Maybe you don't enjoy winning your matches quickly.

[WolfCrimson]

Well, it was harder to win with Ragna in CS2 since he did less damage overall, couldn't combo everything into everything (so less corner carry), and he didn't have the current jC, and his mixup was the same as now, so you had to be creative with what you do in order to win. Now, it's all "confirm jC, 5B or 5C into 4k, with corner carry and good amount of heat.". But, I could have a skewed opinion since towards the end of CS2 I was always playing against StarGazer, who has a really good Makoto (and Makoto was superpowered back then).

PS Bang can't combo everything into everything.

Edited May 2, 2012 by WolfCrimson