kirbster Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 I wish I could casually say I was going to test shit at Spark's orz
Herbal Grey Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Should be fine. I did all my testing on CS2 as well. Pretty sure no one's crouching hitbox changed in CSX (though it would be nice if Litchi got fatter). i could SWEAR it doesnt work on hazama -_- i can perform 5a j.a (which i'd never tried before) on plat and rachel (5b j.a is a no-go), but that doesnt seem to work on hazama. how are you doing it? technically, my input is 5a JC 2d j.a ... is this incorrect?
Kuuhaku Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Try 5B 9 2D j.A it should work fine on all of those characters.
Kuuhaku Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) No... jump cancel is usually 8 for 5B 2D j.A. You need to jump forward when jump cancelling the 5B to hit short characters. Still won't work on Litchi though because of how her hitbox is shaped. Edited January 23, 2012 by Bohemian Polka
Chazmobile Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 I'm still amazed how many people I hit with a deep winded down j.B, you would think it would be the most telegraphed but apparently it hits far more than it should do. Plus it sets up for that delicious fuzzy if it's blocked.
Herbal Grey Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 ok, sorry, i should have said 9... i always jump forward anyway. but yea, i can't get it to work (and 5b 9 2d j.a is what i've been doing)
Kuuhaku Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) It's because it can easily convert into 2B and by the time they see j.B, it's too late. The way people "react" to things that aren't 4B are 1) you do 5B into overhead in the same spot so they just react to the 5B and stand up or 2) They stand up when they see wind spent. They actually have no idea what you're going to do which is why stuff like 5B jc 2D 2B and 5B 2D 2B is dirty. ok, sorry, i should have said 9... i always jump forward anyway. but yea, i can't get it to work (and 5b 9 2d j.a is what i've been doing) Do you have a means to record what you're doing? Or... if the PVR is there, I'll try to get a video up or find a video of it being done. Edited January 23, 2012 by Bohemian Polka
kotokot Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Try 5B 9 2D j.A it should work fine on all of those characters. NO you must delay on Rachel, Noel, Litchy, Hazama. On Rachel 5A>j.A is instant overhead(no blockstun>higher hitbox). On 5B hit j.A instant overhead whiffs on Tsubaka and Squirrel. Tested in cs2. All stuff tested with 9 jc.
Herbal Grey Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) i can try it online and record the replay? then record it on a flip or something ? lol i've watched vids of matsu doing j.a overheads on hazama, but it always looks delayed to me @koto what about plat? also, lol that noel is invuln to ioh but i never have to worry about that cuz noels don't know how to block. and that 5a j.a trick on rachel... wow... why didn't i know that? lol Edited January 23, 2012 by Herbal Grey
Kuuhaku Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Uh... I just tested it now. j.A doesn't work period on Litchi because of how her crouching hitbox is shaped. I'll do a recording of what I'm doing, but jump cancelling forward causes it to hit at the very top of their hitbox. http://youtu.be/OICPPhUGjek First version is gapless (5B delay jc 2D j.A). Second version there's a couple frames gap (maybe 1-2) and this is done by 5B 9 2D j.A. Tested this by mashing 1AAAAAA while in block stun. If I got a counter hit, then it has a gap. No counter hit and it's gapless. Also did testing on Tsubaki and Noel. Noel I can't seem to get a gapless version on, so in CSX this might pose a problem with her being able to 4D through it. Tsubaki you can do it normally and it's gapless. Re-did testing on Rachel. She is the same as Hazama. I'll check out Makoto and Platinum at Spark's. kotoko- 5A 2D j.A works, but it is not gapless because 5A's blockstun is not high enough. The point of gapless instant overhead is you can't reversal through it. Edited January 23, 2012 by Bohemian Polka
Herbal Grey Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 it still "looks" to me like that's delayed. maybe i'll post a vid where mine whiffs maybe
Kuuhaku Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Even if at worst it's 1-2 frames slower, no one's reacting to that. It's called an instant overhead because it's beyond the ability of people to reasonably react and thus you must guess if it's coming or not. It's a 50/50 because in that same situation Rachel can do a low.
Herbal Grey Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 i think mayyybe in this situation, those extra 1-2 frames make a big difference on how blockable it is, but let me know when you test it out on spark ;P most people i try a delayed overhead on are reacting to the wind, so maybe i could do that 2d 2b dirty-ness you were suggesting on chars like haz, noel. unrelated, in a 3c frog oki situation, if you KNOW they're gonna roll, what do you do? mostly i tend to 2a to bait inward roll and if they roll away, honestly, all i've thought of against chars like lambda is to reset pressure with something like dash 5b/2a, but i would have had a reset pressure if they had simply emergency teched, so i'm not happy with the way i'm dealing with this situation.
kotokot Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) First version is gapless (5B delay jc 2D j.A). Second version there's a couple frames gap (maybe 1-2) and this is done by 5B 9 2D j.A. Tested this by mashing 1AAAAAA while in block stun. If I got a counter hit, then it has a gap. No counter hit and it's gapless. kotoko- 5A 2D j.A works, but it is not gapless because 5A's blockstun is not high enough. The point of gapless instant overhead is you can't reversal through it. this is bad way to test gaps>< you must set dummy to instant blocking and blocking only first hit. Mashing does not helps, lol. The point of 5A 2D j.A is that this is Rachel specific for having gap to have fastest possible j.A, not delayed. Or you must delay j.A if it's done during blockstun. The only thing she can do is backdash and you can punish it. If you delay it is easier to block. And your opponent can just switch blocking low to high after ~10F(like blocking jumpins/empty jumps), so if you don't delay 2B things are even worse. @koto what about plat? also, lol that noel is invuln to ioh but i never have to worry about that cuz noels don't know how to block. and that 5a j.a trick on rachel... wow... why didn't i know that? lol it was tested in cs2, this is the only chars that immune to ioh. So platinum is ok. I can give the all char specific shit that i tested with this. Edited January 23, 2012 by kotokot
Herbal Grey Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) it was tested in cs2, this is the only chars that immune to ioh. So platinum is ok. I can give the all char specific shit that i tested with this. so just to clarify... 5b 9 2d j.a should work on plat ? EDIT: ok, yeah, i need to spend more time in training mode -_- also, didn't know there was a gap between j.a and j.b, but no gap between j.a and j.c Edited January 23, 2012 by Herbal Grey
Kuuhaku Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Why that setting though? IB by default has less blockstun. The reason for counter hit and not counter hit as a test is because if you don't land a counter hit that means they never even left block stun. Where as if you do land counter hit they left block stun and thus their move started up. I tested it multiple times too and got consistent results. If you're talking in sheer speed, yes 5A jc 2D j.A will always be faster because of numbers- 5A's 6F start up versus 5B's 8F start up. The reason why 5B is used more is because 5B into j.A overhead is gapless. If it's gapless, she has nothing she backdash because she's stuck in block stun. Also, as I stated earlier, even if you delay it 1-2 frames, it won't matter much at that speed. Still beyond react-able time. Keep in mind reasonable reaction is around 20 frames and we're talking between 12-15 frames. You're much more likely to run into someone mashing inputs because they want out than run into someone who can consistently react (not guess) and block switch at that speed. Edited January 23, 2012 by Bohemian Polka
Deikan Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Anyone here on the Rachel aka The Dark Queen of the Night forum a Megumi Nakajima fan? If so, check out this cool anime song/opening. Been listening to it the whole day and been raping the replay button on Youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCuHZwP1DB0&list=FLIWN-jPcLnJskq2Lsv91DXQ&index=1&feature=plpp_video Come on full version please run on by quickly:keke:
tofurr Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Full version comes out on the first of February.
Deikan Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Really, next week? I seriously can't wait, thanks !.
kotokot Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 yes IB have less blockstun. And i have sad experience with Hazamas legs to say this) 13F green throws are pretty breakable. block switching at this speed is not that hard. I tested on Bang how to get out of his command throw with Hakumen, and "mashing" hotaru with proper timing after 2A/5A gave me ib for 2A, standing ib for 5B and fatal hotaru for grab. This haven't solved problem at all, because bang can delay something or do other things. Chars with dp can do 6236 after 5B ib and if you delay overhead, you will eat dp, though delayed 2B will beat this. i don't have much people to play and some of them can ib Rachel blockstrings 5 of 10 times) though 1-2F gap does not affects most people, they even doesn't know matchup at good level.
[SpA]Relentless Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Polka, attacks with different levels cause different blockstun animation. If I'm not mistaken that's the reason why kotokot says 5A j.2DA is a faster overhead on Rachel than 5B j.2DA (not because 5A starts up faster). It doesn't matter that it's not gapless because Rachel can't reversal it. I believe something similar happens with Tao's hitbox too (iirc you can use 5B j.2DA but not 5A j.2DA because of the way her hitbox changes in blockstun). I don't think this discussion about reaction time will lead anywhere though. Knowledge of your opponent will always play a role. Blocking overheads is neither pure guessing nor pure reacting (except Rachel 4B ). But playing games with faster mixups will definitely help overall (seriously, you should all play HnK. I can't stress enough how much I love it :D). Unless it gets unfair (try blocking Yeti's high/low mixups in Vsav ) Edited January 23, 2012 by [SpA]Relentless
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