LuminAbyss Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Relentless;1245583']Polka' date=' attacks with different levels cause different blockstun animation.[/quote'] This is the first I've heard of it. I always just thought it was different levels of blockstun, I can't imagine how it would change the animation if it's just keeping them guarding longer. EDIT: Unless the fact that they're kept in the position they blocked in longer has something to do with it, which I feel it shouldn't. Edited January 24, 2012 by LuminAbyss
Kuuhaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 yes IB have less blockstun. And i have sad experience with Hazamas legs to say this) 13F green throws are pretty breakable. block switching at this speed is not that hard. I tested on Bang how to get out of his command throw with Hakumen, and "mashing" hotaru with proper timing after 2A/5A gave me ib for 2A, standing ib for 5B and fatal hotaru for grab. This haven't solved problem at all, because bang can delay something or do other things. Chars with dp can do 6236 after 5B ib and if you delay overhead, you will eat dp, though delayed 2B will beat this. i don't have much people to play and some of them can ib Rachel blockstrings 5 of 10 times) though 1-2F gap does not affects most people, they even doesn't know matchup at good level. You have to also take into account the start up animation which is seven frames. Throws are a total of 20 frames. So green throws are within reasonable reaction time. SPA- Pretty sure this is a no. It's the first I've heard of it. Nothing in the system or even sprite sheets would suggest this. Finished testing with Spark. 5B 2D j.A is gapless on everyone but Noel and Litchi (doesn't work on Litchi). This is assuming normal block. It is not gapless on IB.
gli Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) So to summarize: 5B 2D jc j.A is gapless for those that it works on (i.e not Noel or Litchi) but on some characters you need to delay the jump-cancel? @luf: Yeah. It's finally getting somewhere. I think I would have dropped Another on this episode had it not been for the last half. Edited January 24, 2012 by glirandly
Kuuhaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 It will hit Noel too, but you have to delay it more so gapless is impossible. Delaying the jump cancel will make it easier to hit shorter characters, but even with the delay it is still gapless. On IB though, it's not gapless no matter what.
Herbal Grey Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 so what i've been doing is delaying the j.a to hit chars like haz / noel, but if you delay the JUMP and do 2d before the jump then you can do the j.a right away. is that a correct statement? side note: i also do a gimmick of 2d jump ( 9 ) then 2b for a cross up . i get a super jump and rachel literally falls on top and then on the other side. obviously, if i'm going for overhead, i have to do 2d earlier, but this super jump gimmick works at least sometimes.
LuminAbyss Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Iori is imparting Rachel knowledge onto me. I feel empowered.
gli Posted January 24, 2012 Author Posted January 24, 2012 It will hit Noel too, but you have to delay it more so gapless is impossible. Delaying the jump cancel will make it easier to hit shorter characters, but even with the delay it is still gapless. On IB though, it's not gapless no matter what. Cool. With the IB issue... I wonder how feasible it would be to confirm an IB and switch up with 2B instead.
tofurr Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 What the eff do I do against an incredibly aggressive Hakumen?
kotokot Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Finished testing with Spark. 5B 2D j.A is gapless on everyone but Noel and Litchi (doesn't work on Litchi). This is assuming normal block. It is not gapless on IB. this it's gapless on most chars, except Hazama, Rachel, Noel and Litchy
Kuuhaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 this it's gapless on most chars, except Hazama, Rachel, Noel and Litchy No. Our testing showed that Hazama and Rachel are also gapless.
[SpA]Relentless Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) If it's not gapless on IB, then it's not gapless -__- For example on Ragna you can do 5B j.2DA with no delay, and he can't reversal it even on IB. If it has a gap on IB on those chars you mentioned, then j.A was delayed. And if you have to use 2D before you jumpcancel 5B, then it gets even easier to react to the jump (sure you can do 5B 2D 2B without jc inbetween, but most of the time this will be a waste of wind). Edited January 24, 2012 by [SpA]Relentless
kotokot Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 No. Our testing showed that Hazama and Rachel are also gapless. holy shit! Read Rele: Relentless;1246171']If it's not gapless on IB, then it's not gapless -__- For example on Ragna you can do 5B j.2DA with no delay, and he can't reversal it even on IB. If it has a gap on IB on those chars you mentioned, then j.A was delayed. And if you have to use 2D before you jumpcancel 5B, then it gets even easier to react to the jump (sure you can do 5B 2D 2B without jc inbetween, but most of the time this will be a waste of wind). I already wrote that i ate houtenjins while i did this on hazama on IB.
Kuuhaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) That's because it's not gapless on IB. Any character with a reversal can IB 5B and hit you before j.A comes out. At the same time this is extremely unsafe because you could also block as you jump cancel 5B. The only exceptions may be Hakumen and Tager because j.A hits them much sooner since their hitboxes are extremely tall. Hazama having a reversal is nothing special in this case. It does not make the string somehow magically work differently on him than it would with any other character that has a reversal. Spa- I'm sorry, but you're going to have to get some correct information. Gapless simply means that there are 0 frames gap, therefore you can't mash out, back dash, whatever because you're still in block stun. IBing is a mechanic that's meant to create gaps to give characters opportunities to get out. Both gapless and strings with gaps have their uses depending on the situation and what you're trying to do. Having a gapless and safe string into an extremely fast overhead that works on just about everyone is something that only Rachel has though. Edited January 24, 2012 by Bohemian Polka
tofurr Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 I have a noob question regarding this whole frame data discussion. SO, since 5b is -8 on block and IOH j.a is 8F start-up, with the difference between those two number being 0. This is what makes it gapless, correct? So if the 5b gets IB that makes the frame advantage on it -11 and that leaves a 3F gap inbetween 5b and IOH j.a? So would that make it hard to punish inbetween unless the move countering is Invisible on start-up? I'm just trying to understand what y'all are talking about. Also, does the frame data have the info on the frames for each characters back dash on whether or not that character has invisibility frames to a certain point and what not?
Sakaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Also, does the frame data have the info on the frames for each characters back dash on whether or not that character has invisibility frames to a certain point and what not? Too lazy to write anything useful right now, so I just leave this here: http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/systemGuide/systemData.html Scroll down a bit.
Kuuhaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 I have a noob question regarding this whole frame data discussion. SO, since 5b is -8 on block and IOH j.a is 8F start-up, with the difference between those two number being 0. This is what makes it gapless, correct? So if the 5b gets IB that makes the frame advantage on it -11 and that leaves a 3F gap inbetween 5b and IOH j.a? So would that make it hard to punish inbetween unless the move countering is Invisible on start-up? I'm just trying to understand what y'all are talking about. Also, does the frame data have the info on the frames for each characters back dash on whether or not that character has invisibility frames to a certain point and what not? That -8 is only if you allow 5B to recover without doing anything else. Since you jump cancel the move (assuming first active frame), you only take into account it's blockstun which is determined by it's level of attack. Since 5B is a level 3 attack, it's total blockstun is 16 frames. You also have to take into account jump start up which is 4 for Rachel. On IB, it would look something like this: (5B Block stun) 16 - 3 (IBed) = 13 - 4 (jump start up) = 9 - 8 (j.A start up) = 1 On not IB, it would look something like this: (5B block stun) 16 = 16 - 4 (jump start up) = 12 - 8 (j.A start up) = 4 This is assuming j.A hits them rising, which I think only occurs on Tager (maybe Hakumen) and also assuming that you jump cancel on the first active frame. On most characters, I'm assuming on IB the gap is like 1 frame. So yes, on IB you can DP or backdash.
tofurr Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Ah, I got it, thank you Polka. So if assuming you don't hit while rising, would that be the 'delay' you're all talking about?
Kuuhaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Ah, I got it, thank you Polka. So if assuming you don't hit while rising, would that be the 'delay' you're all talking about? Yes. If j.A doesn't hit them rising, there will always be some sort of delay because j.A won't hit them right away. That being said, I have kind of a weird theory that wind timing is why you have to delay for shorter characters. Delaying the jump cancel seems to make it more consistent because wind effects Rachel less (Rachel's momentum is different depend on when she starts moving during wind which is something I noticed when messing with level 3 j.2C timings). At the same time it's kind of weird because Rachel moves fastest at the beginning of wind. This is also something I'll mess around with. Or if anyone else wants to try, they're more than welcome to. As for why 5B 9 2D j.A is more consistent, Rachel moves forward and will hit the top of their hitbox. At the same time, because she travels more, there's even more of a delay. In most situations it won't matter unless they're really fishing for an IB DP to get out, in which case you can try to read it and block after you jump cancel 5B. Then they'll feel stupid because you air blocked their DP and you're about to kill them. Edited January 24, 2012 by Bohemian Polka
kotokot Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 hitting with j.A rising and j.A 2D is different, because 2D makes you lower even in j.A startup. If someone isn't lazy you can test setting dummy on ib and blocking only first hit. I think it will be still same as i said before, but on some chars can be 1F gap because j.A have 3 active frames.
Kuuhaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) It still ultimately comes down to hitboxes and I'm pretty sure that with most characters that j.A doesn't hit them on the first active frame because Rachel has to travel downwards. We did some preliminary testing with the CPU performing gapless 5B 2D j.A and Spark doing IB DP to get out with different characters. Because of Tager and (maybe Hakumen's) hitboxes, they might not even be able to get out on IB. Though we didn't go as far to test this because we decided to play iDOLM@STER instead. If you really want, I can also put that on my to-do list. Oh yeah. Some characters are noticeably taller or shorter during their blocking animations. Ragna would be an example of a character that gets taller and Noel would be an example of a character that becomes shorter. I was told a list of characters that get taller at one point, but I forgot. The only other character I remember is Carl (taller). This is more or less the explanation of why Noel specifically is a pain in the butt to hit with j.A. Edited January 24, 2012 by Bohemian Polka
tofurr Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 In regards to Hakumen, I was playing Skeletal Minion last night, and he was able to D counter my j.a after my 5b going into 2d j.a I saved a couple replays, I'll see if it happened in any of those to see if he IB the 5b or if I screwed up some how.
Kuuhaku Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 If it was netplay, also keep in mind lag. While you do have some time to mess up with it, it's not much so that could equally be a factor.
kotokot Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 In regards to Hakumen, I was playing Skeletal Minion last night, and he was able to D counter my j.a after my 5b going into 2d j.a I saved a couple replays, I'll see if it happened in any of those to see if he IB the 5b or if I screwed up some how. you just failing at this=( use the advanced input, Luke
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