[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[slashz]

The fact a character has become better doesn't always mean people like the changes they made to do that.

Yeah, but that's beside the point. He's buffed up regardless. Even if his BHB was more useful in slash, I can live without it considering all the other changes for the better. And this.. people.. not liking the changes for the better are probably not OS-players.

The fact OS has a leveling system simply puts him bottom tier by default, his character construction puts him bottom tier by default. Unless they change both he will probably remain bottom tier.

C'mon, man. Do you mean that a leveling system always puts characters in the bottom (not just low - but the BOTTOM, ie. basically worse than the rest of the cast) just because they level? Does this apply to Jam, Johnny, Rky (think #R) or Zappa as well?

Could you be more specific about his character construction? (And why it should make him worse than everyone else?) I can't argue against OS having trouble with zoning chars - but what chars are without bad matchups? Being an OS/Rky-player I can't say that I have any complaints about how OS turned out in Accent Core.

Though what I really don't get is that he still has fucking high proration, if they'd change that his worst matchups would easily turn into his best.

Fafnir!

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

reaVer: There is nothing that says HOS's character design is going to make him bottom by default. He is a very strong character with a lot going for him and his charge system does not slow him down much at all. If it weren't for his charge system, he wouldn't even have charge cancel, which gives him hella options. And I seriously don't know what game you're playing when you say he still has "high proration" and that his average combo damage has only gone up by about 10-20 points. It's gone up by a lot more than that, even basic shit that did weak damage in Slash does much more in AC.

[reaVer]

high proration -> proration on a lot of moves, even those that are used to actually hit zoners, with fafnir this problem is indeed avoided for the most part. And yeah, damage has risen, but in my opinion it's still not enough. To be more specific: I think the proration from 5K and 2S should be removed. Slashz: I want his / BHB back, except for the hilt gayness, outside the hilt gayness it could be used as a staple move. The thing that turns OS's leveling system bottom tier is not because it's bad or w/e, I actually prefer OS's over Jam, Johnny, Rky and Zappa's. The thing is however, OS's leveling system(if you wish to level fast) is simply hard to keep solid; again made easier in AC, but where OS needs to pay up 25% of his tension other characters simply won't have too. Character construction: pretty much that most characters have and arrow shaped region on ground game, while his is inverted, this was in slash primarily, in AC they modified the S(f) and gave him sort of an arrow shaped region, but to me that S(f) still remains an hassle and it really won't make zoners shit their pants or anything. If they returned the BHB from / with this however it would be a lot more interesting. While there's nothing that says OS's character design is going to make him bottom by default, there's really no way around it. This however has more to do with the fact he's relatively new rather then his normals or specials. And this is just matchup charts, I think real OS players could easily yield better results then the matchups would imply.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

high proration -> proration on a lot of moves, even those that are used to actually hit zoners, with fafnir this problem is indeed avoided for the most part. And yeah, damage has risen, but in my opinion it's still not enough. To be more specific: I think the proration from 5K and 2S should be removed.

Ok, I have to wonder how damage of 170+ on random-ass hits is considered "not enough". You want him to do Slayer-level no-meter damage but still be almost as fast as Jam? You might wanna clarify what goes as high damage for you.

Second of all, 5K has a measly 90% proration on it which doesn't prevent HOS from doing damn near half-life combos or more with some lazy shit like 5K-5S-5HS into a level 2 or level 3 Rock It combo. Also, 2S has NO PRORATION whatsoever, so you just pulled that one out of your ass. If you're gonna complain about something, try to do your research.

Let's examine this whole proration thing:

5P: 80%

5K: 90%

6P: 90%

DAA: 50%

2P: 80%

2K: 70%

2HS: 90%

2D: 90% forced

j.S: 90% forced

j.D: 90% forced

Throw (ground and air): 50% forced

That's just his normals. Seems like a lot, right? Well, that's pretty typical. Fast moves like punches and kicks always have proration attached to them, especially crouching kicks. Overheads also usually have proration attached, as well as moves that give juggle/bounce states for "free" (ie they don't use meter). Look at the data for most of the other characters and you will find similar circumstances. So all this grandstanding about "high proration" is nothing special for HOS, everyone has to deal with it. When you have the fastest normal in the game, 90% proration is nothing to cry over.

The thing that turns OS's leveling system bottom tier is not because it's bad or w/e, I actually prefer OS's over Jam, Johnny, Rky and Zappa's. The thing is however, OS's leveling system(if you wish to level fast) is simply hard to keep solid; again made easier in AC, but where OS needs to pay up 25% of his tension other characters simply won't have too.

With the combination of faster charging and the Charge Keep system, it is actually pretty easy to keep your level high. And since when do people bitch about having to use 25% Tension? Never mind the fact that Tension grows on trees in AC.

Character construction: pretty much that most characters have and arrow shaped region on ground game, while his is inverted, this was in slash primarily, in AC they modified the S(f) and gave him sort of an arrow shaped region, but to me that S(f) still remains an hassle and it really won't make zoners shit their pants or anything. If they returned the BHB from / with this however it would be a lot more interesting.

You mean a lot more broken. HOS can have level 2 ALL THE TIME in AC if he wants. Constant level 2 BHB would mean that he could get into his ideal range whenever he wanted to, and with the increase his damage dealing ability has received, this wouldn't really be reasonable. Shit is give and take, you can't have everything.

As far as the S(f), it's not godly by any means, but it has huge fucking range. Timed correctly, you can CH a LOT of stuff from zoning characters and you can still combo to 6HS from it. On block you can just CC it to get back to neutral or JC it or cancel it to a special, almost anything you want. The slow speed means that you have to space it correctly and time your poke, but it's actually pretty useful.

While there's nothing that says OS's character design is going to make him bottom by default, there's really no way around it. This however has more to do with the fact he's relatively new rather then his normals or specials. And this is just matchup charts, I think real OS players could easily yield better results then the matchups would imply.

You just contradicted yourself within your first sentence! How is it that HOS's character design doesn't make him bottom by default but there is "no way around it"? Wouldn't that imply that the design is bunk since it can't be fixed?

HOS's newness has little or nothing to do with his position in the tiers at this point, IMO. And I'm pretty sure the matchup charts would take "real" HOS players into account, just as I would expect them to take real players into account in general.

Bottom line is that HOS plays differently now. I can understand if players are disappointed, but hey, nothing preventing you from playing a different character.

[reaVer]

2S used to have forced proration in / and your changes list has no mention of that being removed. There's nothing that says/shows that HOS's design makes him bottom tier by default, but he simply is:P It's kinda 3s Ken, try to tell why he's toptier, there's nothing you can mention, cuz everything about him is really just so-so. The S(f) has a weird catch about it, it's for one very slow and it doesn't always hit crouchers, but sometimes it does @_@ It's behavior strikes really odd to me, I'd stil rather use 2S then 5S(f) to CH people. On the other hand I'd rather use S for AA now, since it option selects to the right one 90% of the time.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

2S used to have forced proration in / and your changes list has no mention of that being removed.

Wrong. 2S never had forced proration.

There's nothing that says/shows that HOS's design makes him bottom tier by default, but he simply is:P It's kinda 3s Ken, try to tell why he's toptier, there's nothing you can mention, cuz everything about him is really just so-so.

Try to come up with a better explanation, this is just blowing hot wind and shows you don't know what you are trying to say.

The S(f) has a weird catch about it, it's for one very slow and it doesn't always hit crouchers, but sometimes it does @_@ It's behavior strikes really odd to me, I'd stil rather use 2S then 5S(f) to CH people. On the other hand I'd rather use S for AA now, since it option selects to the right one 90% of the time.

I didn't say to use S(f) strictly for counter hit, it functions as a ranged poke and just happens to give you a decent reward on a CH. It's 10 frames, same speed as his Force Break, it just feels slow. You're not always going to be in range for 2S, this move functions pretty well as long as it's done at or near its max range.

[Ceirnian]

What exactly is your point reaver? So far I'm hearing complaining about bhb (who the hell cares, HOS is so much better now) and a few random things thrown in.

[Doomscyther]

AC HOS is better, end of discussion.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I can understand being upset over the BHB change as it removed a really useful tool from HOS's arsenal, but I think he'd just be too good with the Slash version and the AC charge system. It'd be too easy to lock people down and build their guard gauge (with his damage already being high in AC, this would be overkill), way too easy to get inside as well. Just learn how to use the new one, it's still good at close-range. Like I've said before, HOS is played a little differently now. Some players will not be happy with that. Totally understandable. Just don't use that as an excuse to go off on weird tangents and make wild assumptions like "HOS is bottom tier because of his design".

[LM_Akira]

One randonm thing I thought I'd post...a while back I asked the question if you can (when at Lv2) hold down D, do Lv1 BHB and negative edge D for the AC to Lv3. After a little testing I couldn't get the AC to come from negative edge but the trick is still do-able: At Lv2, hold down D and whiff Lv 1 BHB, release then press D again for the AC as BHB is recovering. You've essentially gone from a Lv1 move to Lv3. And if you want, FRC the AC of course in order to start a rushdown with Lv3 ready. Nothing major but perhaps it could prove useful for something in the future. Another use of this is in doing Lv1 GB (when at Lv2) and hit confirming the AC FRC when it is blocked. Or would this be too risky as a general strategy? If you did this from a CH Lv1 GB you'd be able to follow up with dash j.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D, ender... where the ender could involve a Lv3 move (or if you're back was in the corner to start with, additional stuff). You could even do this trick after a combo ending in j.D, Lv1 SV (when at Lv2) AC FRC to land with Lv3 after a combo. Just a few ideas.

[Hatred Edge]

No homo but I love /\Core Hos. He gains meter so fast! Plus his forcebreak is badass... Now that that's out...I'm having some trouble comboing after j.D. Any tips??? BTW I was trying to do the Rock It lvl2 RC combo.

[Jet Set Dizzy]

the new 236p is great! lvl 1 combod into grab with wallstick! lvl 2.25(needs a little more than 2) you can followup D and then lvl2 236s and air combo and it combos! damage is not that great but it looks really cool.

[reaVer]

No homo but I love /\Core Hos. He gains meter so fast! Plus his forcebreak is badass...

Now that that's out...I'm having some trouble comboing after j.D. Any tips??? BTW I was trying to do the Rock It lvl2 RC combo.

So far j.D means instant knockdown on someone on the ground, I've had a few cases where I actually managed to combo after it, but it's rare.

[fatewalker]

near corner: j.HS, j.D, lv2SV, land, k, c.S, air combo. no need to RC lv2RK. Untechable time is long enough to run up and 5K.

[zer0kage]

I don't know if this should be in the combo thread or not but 2D 214D combos sometimes I wonder what causes the 5K 5S followup to whiff even at pointblank range.

[Hatred Edge]

Check this out. I was practicing CCing and charge-keep against CPU Johnny. So after knockdown and starting charging right in his face then he tries to hit me and I THROW HIM from charge stance! Is there possible mind games with this? Cuz I have never seen anyone use this a match. I thought it could give HOS a bit more options from charge stance since it recovers so fast.

[LM_Akira]

Almost no strat talk for AC HOS? Come on guys, there must be loads to discuss!

Hatred Edge, I've tried setting up what you said happened but I've been unable to throw anyone from Charge stance. I've been thrown from Charge stance but I've never been able to throw someone from it.

So what are players using for HOS Okizeme then? CC opens up some new options but 2HS has lost it's throw invincibility [EDIT - no it hasn't, see later in thead] so I find it less useful. Here are a few oki options I've been looking into:

Lv1 Gun Blaze

Getting a bit stale now I find. Using it on it's own is too obvious (almost everyone I play against blocks it) but you can occasionally get a combo from it if your opponent isn't paying attention. In fact I find quite a few people going for a throw if I do it alone. Gun Blaze crossup is still useful as you can mix up your oki from the rest of the stuff I'll put here.

Blocked

If you have bar you can AC FRC a blocked Gun Blaze and run back into a little string or something (you have more advantage on block from a Lv1 Gun Blaze than Slash, +9, but you're not really in a position to capitalise on it). Otherwise you can just Charge or AC the blocked Gun Blaze and see what your opponent goes for.

Hit / CH

On hit you can get in a solid combo, doing great damage if you're taking them into the corner for a re-launch. Same on CH (where you can go for JI combos more easily and have more time to think about your followup).

6K

6K is great to use for oki as it has throw invincibility for almost it's entire startup and active time (startup is 12F, it's active for 10F and it has throw inv for the first 21Fs).

Blocked

On block you really only have 2 options;

a) 6K (blocked) 2D

b) 6K (blocked) 214D (CC)

Doing a) will work well until people start blocking low straight after a blocked 6K. If 2D is bocked you can CC and go from there. If 2D hits the oki situation is reset. Option b) is an alternative that I personally don't use that often but I think it has some uses (any input anyone?)

Hit

The main option on hit is pretty much a) from above. You can gatling into 2D to reset the situation. Note 6K, 2D also gives the perfect distance for a Gun Blaze crossup.

CH

Lots of options from a CH 6K, especially if you have Lv2/3 or 25% or more Tension;

a) 6K (CH) Lv2/3 Rock It or Lv3 BRP combo

b) 6K (CH) Lv2 BRP

c) 6K (CH) 6HS if you have the bar, 6K (CH) 6HS RC into combo

d) 6K (CH) dashing Fafnir

e) 6K (CH) 214D (CC) dash short gatling (5K, 5S©) into Lv2/3 Rock It combo

Options a) and e) are just standard combo options. On CH, 6K can be combo'd into Lv2 Rock It or Lv3 Rock It or BRP directly so just go for a combo from there. You can also CC the 6K and gatling into a special.

Option b) will give knockdown and reset the oki situation again.

Option c) is probably only best to do with 50% Tension. Doing the 6K (CH) 6HS gatling doesn't leave you in a particularly advantageous state and pushes your opponent right back. If you have the Tension for an RC you have some good options afterwards:

6K (CH) 6HS RC dash into...

i) short gatling (5K, 5S©, 5HS or 5S©, 5HS or 5K, 2S, 5HS whatever) Lv2 Rock It or Lv3 Rock It / BRP combo.

ii) short gatling into knockdown (if you don't have resources). Resets the oki options.

iii) IAD j.HS, 5K, 5S©, 2D. Resets the oki options.

Option d) is for when you have at least 25%. You do the dashing Fafnir as 412366D (see WUT's post in the combo thread).

2HS

Similar exactly the same as in Slash has lower body inv during later part of startup (14th-22nd F) as well as throw inv (17th-22nd F). It's overhead so it's good to mixup with 6K (which can be blocked high or low).

Block

On block this move is even so you're in a neutral situation right in their face generally. Not sure what is best to do afterwards, Kaqn will occasionally throw 2 of these out in a row when the first one is blocked.

Hit

If you hit with 2HS you really need 50% Tension in order to RC into a standard combo. It was possible to connect a 5K if you hit super-meaty with this in Slash I can't quite seem to time it in AC.

CH

On CH you get floor bounce and a free combo. Check the combo thread for options.

Dust

The other overhead move Order-So has at his disposal, probably best used in conjunction with Lv1 Gun Blaze crossups as it may be too obvious simply running in with it. On hit or CH follow with a dust combo. Not sure what is best to do on block as you're -7.

j.S

Only really to be used as a setup for fuzzy guard. Using it on someone with an invincible uppercut or super is probably suicide. You opponent needs to be afraid of the low followup as this in turn will allow you to go for the fuzzy guard j.HS, j.D mixup (you need to make them fear the low attack so that they will be cautious about guarding high and at some point they should be caught by fuzzy guard if you go for the j.HS, j.D followup instead). A few examples are:

j.S, 2K, 2S, Lv1 BHB (AC FRC if you have the bar or depending on who you're against)

j.S, 2K, 2S, 2D (if you land j.S deep/meaty or if you're near the corner, resets oki options)

j.S, 2K, 2S, (5HS) Lv2/3 Rock It combo or Lv3 BRP combo (follow with a standard combo, put in 5HS if you want to combo into BRP or more for damage depending on your Level etc).

I've stopped using quick pokes like 2P and 2K as oki as I get thrown way to often when using them. 2K is great to tick into his throw as well as 5S© CC on block, they might work better when mixed up with Gun Blaze crossup tho, I've not experimented much.

Does anyone have any more things to add to this list?

[Hatred Edge]

Nice! I haven't been using 6K AT ALL. A fellow HOS player told me it was good. Thanks for this info. Question: Titanium Beast said that BHB is good for frame traps. What I have been doing is blocked strings into CC or lvl.1 BHB. Got anything to maximize the use of BHB in strings?

[reaVer]

Don't CC 6K, you'll lengthen it's recovery rather then shorten it. You should look at the frame data, the shortest CC is 11 frames, every move that goes below it will only get longer recovery when you CC it and perhaps even put you at disadvantage. There's also no need to cancel into 6H since the fafnir is there, it doesn't really matter what you do with fafnir, you pretty much always end up doing more damage then you can do with 6H RC. As for okizime, if you're doing both gunblazes really early, he won't be able to use normal throws against you(and if they like to wakeup throw they'll be eating counter hits). Once they finally start blocking you always have the delayed GB to fool them again. The delayed GB as a few properties which opponents should get aware of eventually, they'll only succesfully guard it as a crossup with every type of guard and normally only when in standard crouch defense or IG. So if they are standing or FDing GB will cross them up. So they will be using this as a sort of option select guard to prevent you playing tricks on them the easy way. This is where dust comes in and remember that the opponent must have realised the above to have dust work. Something I've found with air attacks is that if you do P on rising, you'll be doing air attacks at extremely low heights avoiding getting your ass thrown and what not. Japanese have been using it for a while. It might be that they doubletap that punch, so that if the opponent were to jump along they get j.PP which they then follow up with K,dj.S,SV

[Hatred Edge]

Thanks Reaver. I didn't know that. Alright for jump ins all I've been hearing is j.HS but that gets countered so easily by the CPU so I started doing j.K for jumpins instead and I haven't been getting countered as much. I mean I have been having a higher success rate with j.K than j.HS and you can combo after it.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

HOS oki is mostly based around using tools like Gun Blaze, 6K and 2HS to punish your opponent for trying to throw/hit/reverse you on wakeup and basically making them want to always block, at which point you run up and start pressure strings for free or do shenanigans to break their guard. For example, you do Gun Blaze when you have the opportunity to make the opponent focus on guarding the crossup instead of trying to throw or get out of your oki. Once they start guarding all the time, you do the sneaky run up 2K(blocked) into Gun Blaze and cross them up anyway. If you're getting thrown out of these kinds of pokes, it means you aren't working your other options well enough to make the opponent sit still. reaVer, your 6K info is a bit misleading. First of all, the shortest CC is 13 frames, not 11. However, 6K's base recovery is 16 frames (10 frames active, 7 frames recovery, remove 1 from the active and add the two numbers together and you get 16). 6K is a level 3 move, so it normally inflicts 13 frames of guardstun on a normal guarding opponent. So take 13 and subtract a recovery of 16 and you'll see that 6K is normally -3 on block. If you CC, the recovery goes from 16 to 13, so when you take the 13 frames of guard stun and subtract the new 13 frames of recovery, it becomes 0. So CCing 6K does not increase your recovery normally, it reduces your recovery and still leaves you in a position to do something. If you're doing 6K meaty on wakeup, the situation changes a bit since you get to skip some of the active frames that add to the recovery of the move, but doing 6K meaty on wakeup eliminates the mixup aspect of the move because you telegraph what you are going to do and leave yourself open to invincible reversals like VV or Starship. What you want to do is run up in your opponent's face and do 6K at the last possible moment. This makes it more ambiguous as to what you are actually trying to do and will cause your opponent to guess more and make more mistakes. They may think you are trying to start a regular blockstring and attempt to throw you only to get 6K CH in the face. If you do 6K too early, there's no reason for the opponent to guess at what you are doing and they can freely reverse you if they have the ability to do so or simply block. Another option when using 6K on wakeup is to do a slightly delayed cancel into BHB (any version is fine since they all give advantage if you AC FRC). This is nice because you can use visual confirmation to see if 6K connected or not and act accordingly to maximize your offense in any situation. If it was blocked, do the BHB and start pressure again. If it normal hits, you can still combo into the BHB and then do combos from there (you can link a Fafnir from any version of BHB) or you can combo to 2D and do oki (or even CC 2D and do a short aircombo). If it CHs, you can just straight Fafnir them after you recover. You can still CH people with 2HS if they try to throw you out of it on wakeup, you simply have to be a little more clever about your setup. Space yourself just outside of the opponent's throw range and do 2HS and they will get CH if they try to throw you or poke you out of the move. Key thing to remember about 2HS is that if the opponent IBs, you are at slight disadvantage of -4, so be careful when you use it. I tend not to use this move on wakeup as much anymore because it isn't very hard to block in that situation once you get used to it; better to do it at unexpected points in strings where the chance of blocking it is much lower. Honestly, HOS's oki hasn't changed a whole lot from Slash, the options simply pay off in different ways.

[reaVer]

13 frames, my mistake. But somehow you'll be doing fafnir from further away if you CC it. I also get timing issues that are not there without CC.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

You're further away because if you CC immediately, you skip the part of 6K that has the forward sliding momentum. You can see this with other moves as well, this is why I said above to slightly delay when you cancel 6K into BHB; the sliding movement of 6K will carry over to the BHB and you will slide forward as if you had just done a dash-buffered BHB. Cancel into BHB immediately and you won't move forward at all. I would say the only reason you would have timing issues with CC would be because you are not accustomed to the recovery so you don't know exactly when you can move.

[LM_Akira]

Awesome stuff, I never thought about using BHB as part of a hit confirm after 6K. I also forgot to mention I occasionally run up and throw out Fafnir as oki too. I don't know if it's actually a reliable strategy in the long run but it can work against most of the guys I play because they more often than not block high on wakeup (they're sick of getting hit by May's dust, Ky's Greed Sever, Testament's 6P etc... lol). I guess I need to get a better feel for character's throw distances to use 2HS more successfully.

[WUT]

Oki and traditional high/low mixup are not HOS' strong points. HOS excels at punishing people for trying to escape/punish his assault and forcing them to fear and guard. As such, I find myself trying to stay active during oki in an attempt to lull my opponent into the sense that they can punish something I'm doing, and then punish their mistake. Movement and whiffed normals can score you a surprising number of hits. You'd be amazed at how often you can do a simple 5P/5K (whiff), then nail an immediate 6K/Gun Blaze into big damage. I also go with an early 2HS or out of throw range 2HS; the former will leave you with frame advantage if they guard (up to +3 if you hit on the last frame, -1 if they IB it), and the former to keep them honest or score a CH for being silly and thinking they could throw. All this means that, eventually, your opponent will just sit there and guard, opening up HOS' solid close-range ground game. I still do fuzzy guard j.S setups occasionally as well, but I find myself leaning more towards a meaty late j.HS for oki if I want to do some while landing shenanigans. I feel like a real jerk when I do it, too. Late j.HS will let you whiff and guard reversal shoryus and most (but not all) reversal supers. Your options after j.HS are hard to predict (low, throw, 6K throw bait, 2S poke punish, a hilarious 5D that hits way too often) thanks to its guardstun. And you're neutral if they do a reversal backdash, but close enough to close the gap easily and start your offense again.