[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[fatewalker]

do any of you know if Lv2BHB still builds the Garud Gauge the same?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

OK, I understand the generations thing.

Anyways: Kinda stupid question.....

Since Hos can keep D down and do a lvl.1 move while on lv.2/3, can he do a lvl.1 OD while on lv.2/3?

Haven't seen anyone do this yet.

fatewalker: I doubt level 2 BHB builds guard gauge the same, doesn't do as many hits.

[Hatred Edge]

That's what I thought. I think it isn't necessary but it would be a nice trick for HOS to have up his sleeve... To be able to do 5S>2D>Lvl.1SF and still be at lv.2/3. Besides, no one ever mentioned how good the damage is off of an 5S,2D, lv.1Sf is. Makes for one good 50% tension corner combo:eng101: Anyway,few questions: 1.In the Tougeki Dameshii(can't recall how to spell it right) combo vid, HOS jumped and air dashed in between ground normals one combo. Cuz of the new CC system this is possible? Cuz I've never seen anyone do this in Slash... 2.Do any of you think that people will start to hate on HOS like they hate on Sol? Many people state how much of a pain in the ass Sol is...hate for Proto-Badguy coming soon? 3.BHB...no more FRCs, I don't see many players use BHB anymore(but then again I only saw bout 2/3players),BHB was a decent for pressure and a way to get in like GF FRC. Does BHB w/less range and hits still provide HOS with a way in? Or is BHB just a keep away tool now?

[WUT]

Anyway,few questions:

1.In the Tougeki Dameshii(can't recall how to spell it right) combo vid, HOS jumped and air dashed in between ground normals one combo. Cuz of the new CC system this is possible? Cuz I've never seen anyone do this in Slash...

2.Do any of you think that people will start to hate on HOS like they hate on Sol? Many people state how much of a pain in the ass Sol is...hate for Proto-Badguy coming soon?

3.BHB...no more FRCs, I don't see many players use BHB anymore(but then again I only saw bout 2/3players),BHB was a decent for pressure and a way to get in like GF FRC. Does BHB w/less range and hits still provide HOS with a way in? Or is BHB just a keep away tool now?

1. The combo in question (first one in the Tougeki Damashii 'preview') is possible due to 5HS being a Lvl5 move now. Actually, it's possible in Slash; just more difficult. That's why you only see it in combo vids, specifically the loopy IAD combos on Pot and Slayer. CC has nothing to do with it.

In fact, I'm seeing CC used less and less in vids. HOS' are only really using it for 6K, 5HS (especially as an anti-air) and sometimes 2D. 2D apparently gives you a nice launch with CC on some of the floatier characters; CH 2D CC gives you a 5S©, 5HS on everyone.

2. Sol was considered a "pain in the ass" because:

- 1: VV was/is retarded, Slash especially thanks to the damage increase which made his already awesome dragon punch even scarier and gave him so much control.

- 2: #R Sol had Dust Loop, easy damage off of almost everything as long as he had tension to set it up. Slash Sol doesn't have as *much* versatility or damage, but still picks up high damage off of numerous hit-confirmable setups (2K, 6K anyone?).

- 3: Almost everyone and their brother plays Sol (at least in the US). There's always a high margin of entrants in tournies that will play Sol or switch to him if it's double elimination due to his ease of use and ability to generate high damage easier than most of the cast off of simple mixup. Seeing all that Sol can get annoying.

Whew. Glad I got that rant out of my system. Now, how does any of that apply to HOS? In Slash, specifically tournies, no one wants to touch HOS. It's a tourny setting after all, can't blame them. And half the others that play HOS had Sol as a Main before or as a Second now. Everyone that's "serious" about HOS, or the people that try to tier whore, have been waiting for ^C to make the switch. He looks much more solid in ^C, so it makes sense that more people will pick him up. All aboard the HOS bandwagon!

3. Any BHB that isn't Lvl3 is pretty much not worth it. Lvl1 has the same (little) use it did in Slash: AC'ing it and as a crappy counterpoke/keep away tool. Lvl2 has decent frame advantage, but the lack of range makes it mediocre for pressure. Lvl3 has potential to be good for mixup, since it covers your movements and has good frame advantage. I don't see it used much, as Lvl3 is usually spent on something else (Bandit Revolver Prototype, Gun Blaze, Rock It). Still, the option is there.

[POscrub]

Haven't seen anyone do this yet.

fatewalker: I doubt level 2 BHB builds guard gauge the same, doesn't do as many hits.

Order Sol's frame data page is up, so you could check yourself. Only the 1st hit of any level BHB raises the guard bar (all by 14), rest of the hits don't raise it at all. So it kinda sucks now for that purpose.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

3. Any BHB that isn't Lvl3 is pretty much not worth it. Lvl1 has the same (little) use it did in Slash: AC'ing it and as a crappy counterpoke/keep away tool. Lvl2 has decent frame advantage, but the lack of range makes it mediocre for pressure. Lvl3 has potential to be good for mixup, since it covers your movements and has good frame advantage. I don't see it used much, as Lvl3 is usually spent on something else (Bandit Revolver Prototype, Gun Blaze, Rock It). Still, the option is there.

I still see people use BHB in pressure. Since AC FRC is still possible (and your only option for cancelling the move now), along with the ability to actually calculate how much frame advantage/disadvantage the AC FRC gives since we know what point in each move you can AC, it will still have uses in frametraps, even at level 1. To illustrate:

Normally level 1 BHB is -2 in Accent Core. The move is 42 frames total. ACing is possible on the 26th frame. ACs are FRCable from the 7th to the 12th frame. So assuming that the opponent hits Dust before the AC point is reached (ensuring fastest AC), then even with the slowest FRC (12th frame), the total frames of the move go from 42 to 38 (26+12 = 38). This immediately takes the move to +2 with slowest FRC timing; most players will FRC much earlier than this. With fastest FRC timing, you can make a level 1 BHB +7 on block, which is GREAT for frametraps.

We can apply this to each version of BHB in turn. Level 2 BHB with fastest AC has frame advantages of +15 (slowest) and +20 (fastest). Level 3 is +41 (slowest) and +46 (fastest). With these versions, it's not as critical to AC and FRC, but if done outside of the corner, it makes your frametraps stronger since you won't waste frames running up to the opponent to get into your mixup range.

Regarding CC, it's not being whored much these days, but I can still see some decent usage of it. 6K CC is used a lot because it eliminates the problem of being pigeonholed into certain options when you use the move as okizeme. 2D CC is one of the few moves that gives decent frame advantage when CCed(+3) and can lead to great damage on normal or counterhit. 5H CC is the same from the anti-air perspective (MASSIVE damage on CH), plus it gives the best frame advantage of any CCed move (+5 IIRC).

Other moves that aren't CCed as much but are still useful this way are: 5S©(goes from -3 to 0, can be used as a throw setup), 5S(f)(again, -3 to 0, good if you are poking just for the sake of poking) and 2S (goes from -1 to 0, pretty insignificant but still recovers faster and makes it OK as a poke again). These don't get used much because they are not abuseable in the same manner as the moves listed above. 5S© pushes out a lot, so after a while the throw setup becomes easy to see and the non-existant frame advantage doesn't really allow you to force a mixup with it. 5S(f) doesn't get used as much as it did initially (likely due to its slow startup) and the times that it does get used, people are usually aiming for the counterhit, so they tend to go for the 6H instead of CCing it. Of course, a CH 5S(f) that gets CCed gives a decent +5 frame advantage, but at the ranges you use the move, you can't really take advantage of it. As for 2S...well, it speaks for itself, I guess. If you really want frame advantage, you would be better off cancelling to a special like Rock It or Blockhead AC FRC.

[Diveman]

question: What´s the best follow-up after a Lv3 Rock it in and outside the corner?

[WUT]

question:

What´s the best follow-up after a Lv3 Rock it in and outside the corner?

Wrong place to ask; the Combo thread is where this should be.

I'll attempt an answer there.

[Ceirnian]

Two things I wanted to report because I remember it coming up. HOS can't do level 3 bhb into dragon install, just not quite enough time to do it (on that note though Dragon install is easy to do now, pulled it off a few times just for the hell of it in matches). The second thing is, you can indeed hold dust and do a level 1 overdrive.

[LM_Akira]

The second thing is, you can indeed hold dust and do a level 1 overdrive.

That's awesome.

I don't think I've come across it in matches (or I've been too lazy at looking at his Lv gauge) but being able to do Lv1 overdrives at Lv3 could open up some nice possibilities...

corner sweep into Lv1 savage fang > high jump xx in Lv 2/3 moves???

[Juicy G]

Man I have mixed feelings about AC hos. on one hand his normals are way better but on the other his specials are way toned down. His ground offense is thru the roof now with Ac cancel but he doesn't get easy mode damage like slash. any thoughts? Opinions?

[Ceirnian]

I feel his damage is much easier to get in AC compared to slash,in fact I feel his everything is better than slash (except level 2 bandit revolver).

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Man I have mixed feelings about AC hos. on one hand his normals are way better but on the other his specials are way toned down. His ground offense is thru the roof now with Ac cancel but he doesn't get easy mode damage like slash. any thoughts? Opinions?

I am in (almost) total disagreement.

Some of his specials were toned slightly. Level 1 Rock It was toned; it's slower now. On the plus side, it's a knockdown on counter hit. Alter its application and you get something useful. Level 2 and Level 3 versions are better, they are faster than the old versions. Level 2 BR is toned, which kind of sucks since it is a lot easier to combo during juggles than Storm Viper, even though they greatly increased level 2 Storm Viper's untechable time. Gun Blaze no longer trades for free launch, but the followups are better.

The most toned special is Block Head Buster, though. No longer a "get in for free" card, this move is relegated to in-close usage in frame traps only. This hurts his flexibility greatly, but it's a trade-off that we'll have to put up with.

My number 1 biggest disagreement with your post, though, is the damage. HOS has easy mode damage through the ROOF now. He no longer relies on trick shot setups and trying to force a counterhit on the opponent in order to get his big damage. New combo options like CH j.HS and Fafnir lead to ridiculous damage for no real reason; I was able to get 200+ damage off of CH j.HS Tensionless for a braindead-easy combo. This with his easier levelling turns him into a total powerhouse; EVERYTHING leads to damage, one way or the other, and HOS still has a ton of options. Now they hurt a fuckload.

I dunno, the playstyle is slightly different now so your mileage may vary. If you are used to playing oldschool HOS and getting all your damage from CH blah into 6HS RC combos and fuzzy guard/other CH setups, then there will be an awkward period as you transfer over. I personally think HOS is a much better character now, he flows better and is just hella strong.

[reaVer]

TB: the disturbing part of your post is first you claim that you don't require CH setups anymore to do damage, and right after you give an example of a CH combo. One way I too have mixed feelings about OS's new game, they in fact did keep a lot of the old stuff, so if you played a leveler in slash you can continue here, it's even gotten easier now. Heck you can still use GB setup/crossup and what not. Though his worst case scenario with highest damage attempt hasn't really changed, at worst he still can't get beyond the 100 damage. On average case his combo damage his been upped by 10-20. My major problem is the BHB's adjustments, the only one really useful now is l1 version to AC. The l2 version from slash could be used to poke through a lot of things really, and now it's gone it's kinda sad. Another problem is that I've found his combos being inconsistent now, what used to work all the time now only works half the time, it's really odd. What I'm really happy about is that his AA has been improved thanks to the new S(f), it works a lot like Sol's K and it option selects to the right version depending on character distance.

[LM_Akira]

TB: the disturbing part of your post is first you claim that you don't require CH setups anymore to do damage, and right after you give an example of a CH combo.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Titanium Beast is talking about not having to rely on Slash style tricky CH set ups and mind games to score big damage...I think anyone who's seen more than 1 AC HOS vid has seen j.HS counter more than once without any need of "setting it up" as a CH.

Oh yeah, the game's been available on PS2 for about 3 days or something. I'm pretty sure AC HOS isn't a closed book just yet :P

[reaVer]

I've been fooling around with him for 5 days(being on IRC does pay off once in a while). You're right, but in it's context it still looks disturbing:P

[LM_Akira]

After watching god knows how many AC HOS matches I don't think I've ever seen anyone pull out a Lv2/Lv3 BHB before...and now I know why I have to agree that it feels disapointing to lose the "fireball eating" Lv2/3 BHBs to have them replaced with a short ranged hilt explosions but I guess we'll have to see what comes from it. Also I did about 5 mins testing with 6P last night to see if it can nulify projectiles (like it seemed to in a couple of revent vids) but it defininitely doesn't stop stun edges. Didn't test venom's balls tho, will do tonight. 6 frame FRC window on AC rocks tho.

[reaVer]

You can 6P venom's balls, I-no's projectiles, Johnny's coin, possibly Anji's projectiles and some others from the top of my head. All you need is the timing, you can even use it as a defensive weapon against anyone that's going high against you and it works better then the regular 6Ps.

[LM_Akira]

In that case, can Potemkin FDB Order-Sol's 6P? Have you tested that at all?

[Hatred Edge]

Alas I must admit I too have mixed feelingd about /\Core HOS. It's the BHB. I didn't use it much in slash and I don't see myself using much of it in Accent Core outside of lvl.1 I get that Ishi doesn't want a broken HOS but lvl.3 down from 7 hits to 4? And even less range on a lvl.1 BHB? No KD on lvl.2 BRP? I wish HOS had a new move that gave him more mixup... no wild throw proto?? FB: air Bandit Bringer proto?? Anyways..hooray for charge keep! Haha! Now I end many a combo with lvl.1 moves to my hearts content! And DI Sakkai... if only I could combo after the last hit...oh what glorious suffering HOS could bring on many an opponent. And 5HS being 1 hit only helps me out. Even on normal block the CPU can block the 1st hit and punish HOS before the 2nd hit. Currently working SB into FB Fafnir.

[LM_Akira]

Ok, after some testing, Order-Sol can nullify the following projectiles with his 6P: Venom's balls Sol's Gun Flame Ky's Stun Edges (S and HS ground, D tho you will eat the 2 remaining hits if you nullify the first hit. S and HS air tho for the S the angle is awkward so you may take a low hit) ABA's fireball and the 1st part of her FB fireball, the second hit you can block tho timing is harder than for normal fireball. Johnny's Coin I-No's Note (but, you can only nullify the 1st hit, you will take the following 3/4 hits on follow up. On the other hand you can use 6P to make the note go right thru you. If it's too low you can't use 6P) Dizzy's Sycthe Anji's butterflies (normal and FB, tho they will always transform after being nullified) Mini Eddies's fireball from the ground. Could it possibly be used to stop one of his unblockables? Millia's S, HS and D rings. Her FB ring you can nullify the first hit and block the following 2 hits. You can also nullify her ring super too, just the first hit but you can block the other two follow up hits. Baiken's ground tatami mat (quite hard to time tho, probably useless) AND her air tatami mat. Robo-Ky's ground and air missiles. Higher levels and you can just nullify the first hit and block the rest. Zappa's P, S and high Ghost toss. All versions of Darkness Anthem (on doing so the fireball simply passes right through you). He can't nullify Zappa's vomit (his new 5S(f) now has it's own hitbox in flight and on the floor) CPU Potemkin flicked back my 6P the other night so I need to try and test this again properly. I'll add more to the list as and when I test them.

[Hatred Edge]

HA HA HA HA HA HA. Excellent. BHB may have been lowered but HOS has FIST OF THE DRAGON KING to fall back on.

[Juicy G]

TB:Bhb was probably his 2nd best move next to Gunblaze. at lvl 2/3 it helped out sooo much against midrange zoners like testament and potemkin. Now it's by far his worst move.That and savage fang was practically the only reasons to ever charge because he did so much damage without meter. now he NEEDS meter and NEEDS to charge in order to be effective. This is probably the reason his stock is dropping in Japan.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

When you say "did so much damage without meter" exactly what are you citing? I seem to remember him not doing much damage at all and usually needing meter anyway. The only good Tensionless damage I remember HOS having originated from successful fuzzy-guard mixups, specifically the high option that could lead to a long juggle in the corner. Other than that and Gun Blaze combos, HOS did pretty shitty damage unless he had meter AND a counterhit or level charged. HOS is dropping in Japan because there are other characters in AC that do more damage than him and don't necessarily need meter to do it, plus he still has a weakness to zoners. Due to the weakening of BHB, he cannot deal with zoners the same way; he mus wait them out. On the other hand, due to his huge damage output from certain moves like CH anti-air 5HS CC and Fafnir, he can actually play this way and be far more intimidating than he was in Slash. You have some points, but that doesn't change the fact that he is way better in AC than he was in Slash. Right now the lowest I've seen him in AC is A tier, whereas he was C or worse in Slash.

[reaVer]

The fact a character has become better doesn't always mean people like the changes they made to do that. The fact OS has a leveling system simply puts him bottom tier by default, his character construction puts him bottom tier by default. Unless they change both he will probably remain bottom tier. Though what I really don't get is that he still has fucking high proration, if they'd change that his worst matchups would easily turn into his best.