[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[LM_Akira]

I'm pretty sure j.S isnt burst safe, I've been knocked back loads of times when someone bursts from a GB combo and I did hj.S (for example).

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Yeah, when using j.S, if you think they'll Burst, the main threat will be that you potentially can JC the j.S and block or throw a quick move like j.P that is safer. j.S by itself is NOT Burst-safe.

[Hatred Edge]

l1BRP is potbusterable of potemkin impact guards the hit, so in theory that move is punishable. But generally you shouldn't forget to jump/backdash when you're in a situation like that.

Reaver.. I wanted to ask what the hell you mean by this. Are you saying I should opt to backdash or jump after a blocked BRP lv.1? And what is Impact Guard? IB?

[reaVer]

Impact Guard is IB yeah. So unless your BRP gets IGed, which would mean attempting anything would be pointless, you should jump/backdash on standard guard to prevent pot from pbing you. If he FDs you should end up outside range, but I wouldn't be too sure on that.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Well if he FDs, you're at +1, so you're actually in a slightly better position. Unless you did the BRP from far out, he won't be out of Pot Buster range. You can take an aggressive position by jumping with j.P or j.HS as soon as you recover from a blocked BRP (unless you got IBed, which means you're fucked). Against most characters, if a throw is attempted in this situation, they will eat a CH; off of CH j.P, chain to j.HS-D for knockdown. Off of CH j.HS, just go for your best combo.

[Hatred Edge]

Question about BHB lvl.1/2 AC FRC... So HOS is supposed to gain frame advantage from this on block correct? However FRCing the AC leaves HOS open to attack if done at close range. It's like giving your opponent control. So why would it be a good idea to do BHB AC FRC in a block string if it greatly puts HOS at risk? Say why not opt for Rock It instead? Or is all character specific? Like against Johnny BHB works but against Potemkin chances are you'll be in Pot buster range since Potemkin can grab everyone in the game out of their graound normals because of Pot Buster and BHB moves HOS foward.

[reaVer]

Because you aren't reading the framedata I guess-_- BHB gives disadvantage on guard normally. But if you AC FRC it at the shortest timing possible, it actually gives you advantage. The AC point for BHB is before the end of the recovery unlike all his other moves where the AC point is after recovery.

[Hatred Edge]

Because you aren't reading the framedata I guess-_- BHB gives disadvantage on guard normally. But if you AC FRC it at the shortest timing possible, it actually gives you advantage. The AC point for BHB is before the end of the recovery unlike all his other moves where the AC point is after recovery.

I knew it was -F normally which is why you AC FRC it to gain +F. Everyone knew that since last year.

[reaVer]

ok, what was your question again?

[Hintalove]

If you do it close enough to them/with running momentum your opponent wont leave blockstun, even from lv1 bhb as long as you follow it up fast enough. I think you are probably just doing too long of block strings and ending up too far away when you bhb frc and getting hit as you try to make up ground. To change topics, does any one use the whole AC FRC fafnir move? It seems like a waste of tension, because it's just as fast to do fafnir following a non-frced ri. Is it just when your sitting on purple meter and getting that extra lvl makes it worth it?

[reaVer]

I barely use l2/l3 and me using AC to get to that level is even rarer. So no, I don't use it:P Though, what would be the point of fafnir if you don't have l3BRP ready to do the counter mixup? People are already (supposedly) guarding so fafnir is rather pointless there, unless they try shit of course. And in combos l1BHB still reduces damage too much I think.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Question about BHB lvl.1/2 AC FRC...

So HOS is supposed to gain frame advantage from this on block correct? However FRCing the AC leaves HOS open to attack if done at close range. It's like giving your opponent control. So why would it be a good idea to do BHB AC FRC in a block string if it greatly puts HOS at risk? Say why not opt for Rock It instead?

Or is all character specific? Like against Johnny BHB works but against Potemkin chances are you'll be in Pot buster range since Potemkin can grab everyone in the game out of their graound normals because of Pot Buster and BHB moves HOS foward.

Ok, something tells me you don't know what frame advantage means. If you have frame advantage, it means you get to move before your opponent does. So if you attack with the correct move, you will beat out any move they do, even if it is the same speed as the move you did (or even if it's faster, sometimes). For example, at level 1 BHB AC FRC gives you at least +2 frames and that's if you do the FRC as late as possible, it can be up to +7 if you do it as early as possible. So in either case, say you are fighting Ky and you do your 2P, he sees you AC FRC and does his 2P. Both moves are 4 frames, but you are moving 2 frames before him, so your 2P will come out before his and beat it out.

In this situation, how on earth are you giving your opponent control? You get to move first, you get to attack first. Rock It only gives +3 advantage on block and it pushes you out of your effective range. BHB can give you a much larger advantage and you stay close, which is where you want to be.

The Potemkin example is character-specific and not even correct. Potemkin needs a two-frame window to Pot Buster you. The grab doesn't become invincible until the third frame. What this means is that say, in the above example, if you do 2P after a super-late AC FRC, there is a two-frame gap before your attack hits. If his execution is super-sharp, he can PB you out of this attack. However, in the same situation, if you did 5K instead (which is a 3 frame move) and he attempted to PB, he would get hit because you would hit him before he reaches the invincible window of his grab.

Again, this is assuming you did the slowest FRC, most of the time you will have more advantage, so more attacks become available to you. This is also off of level 1 BHB, if you have level 2 then you have huge frame advantage and there's really nothing they can do to attack you.

Hintalove: AC FRC into Fafnir off of level 1 RI? The only use for this I could think of is as a bait. Sometimes, when you make someone block a RI at a long range and know that you have no guaranteed way to attack, you can get some free level by ACing. This is punishable by a lot of things, but not always on reaction. So if your opponent sees you do this and decides to attack you next time, you can AC FRC and then Fafnir: they see the AC startup and go to attack, then eat the Fafnir on CH. Overall, not really a solid strat, just a trick.

reaVer: lvl1BHB in combos reduces damage less than lvl2BHB and it also gives you a way to get some good damage if you happen to connect with a hit and you don't have any Charge but you have a little Tension (string into lvl1BHB, link Fafnir, juggle). You can also do this combo even if you have level 2 by using Charge Keep and this means you can use your level 2 to get a knockdown after you juggle from the Fafnir.

[Sesshyru]

Staying close is the key!

[Hatred Edge]

Okay.... Now further on frame advantage... IMO it's rather easy for Order-Sol to gain frame advantage no matter how small. Now how important is it for him to gain +Fs? Cleary he gets +Fs alot easier than Sol and has many more options as well. ASW did this for a reason.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

In order to maintain good pressure, positive advantage is important. The ability to get frame advantage is what leads to pressure, lockdown and mixup, as well as allowing you to set up frame traps to score counterhits. Thing is, HOS's frame advantages are pretty ho-hum with a few exceptions, and almost all of them require that you actually get close first. This is why characters with good range and strong ground games can rape HOS free sometimes (Axl, Johnny, Slayer).

[Hintalove]

Okay....

Now further on frame advantage...

IMO it's rather easy for Order-Sol to gain frame advantage no matter how small. Now how important is it for him to gain +Fs? Cleary he gets +Fs alot easier than Sol and has many more options as well. ASW did this for a reason.

Ever heard of gunflame?

As for hos frame advantage, it's true you can make most of your moves even or + on block, but to really take advantage of those frames you're going to have to make your opponent afraid of frame traps, so they block for a few extra frames before trying to poke out in a hole. For example, blockstring > rock it is a pretty basc frame trap, but if you abuse it allday expect reversals to sneak their way in. It doesn't really matter if you're at +2 if you're like more than a character length away from some one >.>

[Hatred Edge]

Uhh... You do know that the ENTIRE cast can heavily punish Sol's GF is he doesn't FRC it. Which is why I said OS can gain +F's easier since his methods are safer and easier than Sol's.

And I not only just use Rock It. 2D, 5HS I use as well and BHB AC FRC. So OS has a multiple options to get +F's.

In order to maintain good pressure, positive advantage is important. The ability to get frame advantage is what leads to pressure, lockdown and mixup, as well as allowing you to set up frame traps to score counterhits.

Thing is, HOS's frame advantages are pretty ho-hum with a few exceptions, and almost all of them require that you actually get close first. This is why characters with good range and strong ground games can rape HOS free sometimes (Axl, Johnny, Slayer).

+F's is something I aim to use/gain when I'm in. The trouble I'm having is utilizing it when I'm in. I guess lack of experience is to blame.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Yeah, advantage is important, but just understanding situations from experience is more important IMO. You can turn a situation to your advantage even if you don't have +frames, simply by knowledge of the options and other subtle things like spacing and knowing move properties.

[Hintalove]

You talk about gf frc like it's rare. I wish hos could blow 25% tension for a blanket to run in under.

[LM_Akira]

You talk about gf frc like it's rare. I wish hos could blow 25% tension for a blanket to run in under.

Well, he does have Lv3 BHB.

It doesn't function in the same way as GF FRC and you have to be closer for it to be useful but it does give you "blanket coverage" and a free mixup if they block it. Sol's mixup from GF FRC is stronger as he has a command throw to utilise but yeah, HOS still has something he can use and run in behind to put opponents under pressure.

[excelence]

rarely blow lvl3 moves on BHB block string for mix up, shouldn't it been better for the opponent which to block Fafnir/BRP all day? note: i blow the moves if i'm went to predictable with BRP/Fafnir games and sometimes Tyrrant Rave/SF reversal

[Hintalove]

Am I going out on a limb in thinking that lv3 charge is a little harder to obtain than 25% tension? Sort of related... How often do you guys reach lv3? I tend to hover in lv2 all the time because I like l2 RI and BRP more than 3 for most purposes combo wise, and I like the kd on lv2 brp better than lv3. I just have a hard time getting charge in general though, and probably do way too many lv2 SVs.

[excelence]

at least 1 or twice in a round, lv3 charge keep brp frc feint is a very solid mind games XD

[LM_Akira]

Am I going out on a limb in thinking that lv3 charge is a little harder to obtain than 25% tension?

Yes but I wasnt saying these 2 moves have the exact same function, produce the same results and are obtainable in the same way, was I?

You basicaly said HOS can't cover himself with anything as he rushes down when in fact he can, Lv3 BHB (orr Lv3 BHB AC FRC even). Now, whether or not you actually want to use Lv3 in that way is up to you.

If I want to reach Lv3 in a round, I generally can. It's only if your opponent is being super aggressive or you keep losing to an oki mixup (e.g. Millia, I-No, Dizzy...) that I find charging up Gauge to be difficult.

[Hatred Edge]

How often I reach level 3 has alot to do with the matchup/opponent. If it's against Faust or Slayer or Potemkin... around 2 times a round. Against Sol, Ky, Johnny, Testament, 1 time per round. It's not like HOS can't wreck someone's face at lvl.1...