[CSE] Tsubaki vs Valkenhayn

[pktazn]

Discuss the match-up here.

lol Valkenhayn in Extend.

[Shruikon]

Okay so I've had the rather frustrating experience of only encountering Valks tonight.

I have no idea how to approach this matchup. Valk has silly damage, silly range, silly pressure, silly mixup, silly safe-ness. What can we actually do to Valk?

[pktazn]

In CS2 I remember Guardian telling me we can use 5A to stop one of his moves when he's in wolf form if he's using that to approach... Unfortunately I don't remember exactly what move it was (I think it was the one where Valkenhayn charges at you straight on). I'm pretty sure it still works but I'm not positive since I haven't been able to go against his Valk yet in Extend.

Kiba will probably know more since he actually plays Valk too haha.

[Shruikon]

Yeah that's kind of what I'm counting on. I know I'm pretty bad at this game but this matchup seems ridiculously one-sided to me.

I know in CS2 that Nacht Jager was punishable on block, but now it's +0 so that isn't an easy punish option against weaker players anymore and I haven't been able to stop them from just using 6C all day to take primers because it's +2 on block and has ridiculous range.

[Kiba]

Lol oh haha.

If Valk is in the air, the first thing you'd want to do is to AA him, but you've got remember that Valk can cancel movements with 4C/7C. He could potentially bait your AA and then punish the recovery, which usually sends you to the corner. What I'm saying is, be careful with AA'ing, you've gotta adapt pretty well to that specific player in order to learn theri movement habits. Also, don't try to go air to air with Valk because you will most likely lose, but in the case that you do, use j.B(B).

If he's pressuring you, 5A stops any further wolf dash attacks he may try, so for example, he could do, w[5A > 5B > 5CA]. Your 5A should beat the dash. Usually I hear that it's good to mash 5A during the wolf's blockstrings, but I don't think that's particularly a good idea since the risk and reward is pretty skewed depending on the type of player and the spacing. If he's far from you, then you know it may be a good time to counter with 5A because he will have to dash in to deliver further pressure. He also has a command grab, so watch the spacing. If you're blocking against him in human form, I suggest blocking low, and reacting to the 6C, which you can beat out with a 5A/2C. Don't try any low attacks as it has foot invulnerability. 236A is not safe on block, so IB and change the momentum of the match so you have him blocking. Note that if you get mashy, he can score a throw reject/counter with this on hit. Even if he wolf cancels it, each one can be beaten with a 5A (or dash 5A/5B if he uses 7DC). The problem with Valk's pressure however is that he can so ridiculous stuff with heat, such as 2C > j.C > RC > j.C instant overhead, which is extremely hard to see, and he could do something like 5B > jcd > w[5A] which usually catches players because they attempt to block high. I can't really give advise here as Valk's pressure is really hard to deal with and there are too many ways for him to get around stuff. Though, use barrier to push him out. Many of his normals have a really strong knockback, which could potentially allow his followups to whiff. Try IB'ing too. W/o heat, most of his mixup is DP'able.

When you're pressuring him, do whatever you want really haha. Just be careful using 6A, as Valkenhayn can 6A that on reaction and send you to the corner. Be careful with charge cancels too as it's not hard for him top outpoke you with 2A > combo. Frame traps, kara throws, they're all useful here. Remember he only has 4 primers too, and doesn't prove a threat when blocking unless he has at least 50%.

At neutral or when you're far, Valk will be looking for ways to get in on you. If you sit there and charge, you're making it easy for him. You need to keep moving in this matchup and use quick charge cancels because he can get to you extremely quickly. You can then proceed to using stuff like 236C or 236C > 214D to catch him in the air or something, but try to not be reckless. Of course though, if the player is moving around in human mode more then you can approach him like you would any character, by simply running in and stuff. It's usually a big mistake to let Valk come to you.

W[5B] and 2C usually stuffs your jump in options so don't try any of that stuff. If Valk hits you with anything, he'll hit you hard, and you're gonna get sent to the corner.

Oh and the 22A CH trick doesn't work on Valk here. He could do j.B > combo and have you in the corner in a matter of seconds.

Tsu's normals < Valk's normals. Don't play the poking game with him.

It'll probably be better to watch some vids though and get a real idea, because I know some things that work against him, but I've yet to play a really good Valk to fully understand things.

Hope it helps to an extent.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Kiba

[Airk]

Mashing 5A (or even 2A, but 5A is better now) will stuff wolf-shenanigans if he keeps trying to do weird dash cancels and stuff to maintain momentum. Once he starts playing for real though, mashing is a bad idea. x.x

Sometimes you can surprise him with 623C if he's flying around as a high altitude wolf, which they sometimes do.

This is another character IIRC, like Rachel, where you can extend combos with 236C>214B>22B after a 22C ender. (Assuming you haven't prorated too much) This means you can get good corner carry even with ghetto no charge stuff - 5BB > 5CC > 22C > 236C > 214B > 22B style.

As Kiba more or less said, Valk is pretty bad on defense - and actually Kiba - does Valk 6A WORK vs our 6A? It says it only has guard point against Head/Body and Tsu 6A also has foot. Or maybe guardpoints are backwards from invulnerability, where if you have guardpoint vs an attribute, it doesn't matter what other attributes the attack has? That'd make guardpoint pretty strong. But anyway, that nonsense aside, Valk has an average jab and a weak anti-air (2C has no head invulnerability anymore, so it's comparatively harder for him to AA you. I guess he could use 6A as well, but if you can bait that it's -17) so you can afford to be relatively free with your pressure. If you're above him in the air, you should be relatively okay for air-to-air as well, but you probably won't be able to get there unless you've already got him on the defensive.

Anything he does while in wolf-dash is considered an air normal, and therefore only has Head attribute, so stuff like 2C and 214X will beat these options, but watch for the ol' "land right in front of you and go for [w]5A" trick.

It's probably also still beneficial to try to occasionally use 236C/D to remind him that he can't block in wolf form and can't just run around at ground level, but apparently he can use some kind of wolf cancel to dodge this (see about 7:22 here); Not sure WTF that's about, because it looks like 236C went into recovery as if it had made contact, but it didn't? o.O Can probably use 236C>214D to stuff this though, because he'll be airborne. (That's a pretty good reference vid overall, actually)

[Shruikon]

Thanks both of you. That vid was a nice reference, yeah. I think I need to go back and study loads of Kuresu's matches actually~

[Kiba]

As Kiba more or less said, Valk is pretty bad on defense - and actually Kiba - does Valk 6A WORK vs our 6A? It says it only has guard point against Head/Body and Tsu 6A also has foot. Or maybe guardpoints are backwards from invulnerability, where if you have guardpoint vs an attribute, it doesn't matter what other attributes the attack has? That'd make guardpoint pretty strong.

I haven't ignored you. =D

Ima get this double checked and then get back to you. I'm sure this happened to me a while back though...

Edit: Yea Valk's 6A beats Tsubaki's 6A before it hits. If done late though, Tsubaki gets FC.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Kiba

[Airk]

Huh, so it guard points the attack? Interesting. >files that away for future reference<

[EXonestar]

Im having so much trouble in this match up its unreal ._. .........he baits everything............ i try to be safe he just wolf pressures me.........all can say is.....i know his mix up but can't easily punish. as for his wake up , i try not to get wake up DD or wake up 6A but he just manages to get out......

and people just don't respect tsubaki's pressure... 5a 5a , 6a , 6c(delay)c all just get disrepected ._. .... can't even use my Install gauge ...

[Kiba]

6A should be the least of your worries because it's not a very good reversal anyway. It doesn't have any foot invulnerability and it loses to throws.

It's just too easy to disrespect Tsubaki's pressure, and Valk gets decent damage and corner carry countering Tsubaki's 6A for example. You're probably better with some sort of stagger pressure (5A/2A stuff), because you want to do everything you can to stay on top of it and not let him get away.

Also, don't let him come to you, because if that happens, most likely you're gonna get hit. You need to keep moving using 236C, 214D, and making use of 2C where necessary.

[EXonestar]

6A should be the least of your worries because it's not a very good reversal anyway. It doesn't have any foot invulnerability and it loses to throws.

It's just too easy to disrespect Tsubaki's pressure, and Valk gets decent damage and corner carry countering Tsubaki's 6A for example. You're probably better with some sort of stagger pressure (5A/2A stuff), because you want to do everything you can to stay on top of it and not let him get away.

Also, don't let him come to you, because if that happens, most likely you're gonna get hit. You need to keep moving using 236C, 214D, and making use of 2C where necessary.

He baits 2CC way to easily with 7C . i do use the 5a 2a pressure , but its a risk to keep at it at times but in terms of stays on him with 236c / 214D isn't that punishable?

[Kiba]

He baits 2CC way to easily with 7C . i do use the 5a 2a pressure , but its a risk to keep at it at times but in terms of stays on him with 236c / 214D isn't that punishable?

It's not a good idea to use 2CC unless you can actually hitconfirm it. You're just giving him more opportunities to punish your whiffs. If the player baits it with 7C, you could just wait until he does 7C then retaliate, or move.

I do not mean stay on top of him with 236C/214D. I was actually talking about in neutral or when you're far range, considering Valk can get to you pretty quickly. And yes they are both punishable but you need to show the Valk that you have options against his nonsense and he shouldnt be able to get away with that much.

[Airk]

Yeah; Do not mash 2C; One press only. Do not go into 2CC unless it's a deliberate late chain or something.

Also, Valk 6A doesn't have guardpoint until frame 5, so if you are timing your meaties correctly, 6A won't work., This is actually EASIER now because 5B has more active frames, so you can be less exact about your timing. My stupid sig is actually less of a bad joke now.