[CSE] Noel Vermillion Beginner Question Thread

[Arcknight]

Took me 5 minutes to learn.

It's just a timing thing, you need to get used to when Assault through recovers, because if you input the 44 too early, you wont get a dash, and thus 5C will come out and fuck your combo. It's better to input late when you're first learning it, because you actually have a lot of time to input the 44. Basically, what it all comes down to is just making sure you don't do it too early.

@Luna: Just an odd thought here: Can you convert the 5C(done through error) into a cross-over j.D > corner combo somehow? I just shut the game off so I can't try it. Not sure if you have ever done it though. /curious

[LunaKage]

@Luna: Just an odd thought here: Can you convert the 5C(done through error) into a cross-over j.D > corner combo somehow? I just shut the game off so I can't try it. Not sure if you have ever done it though. /curious

Well I guess it really just depends.

If the combo proration isn't too bad, you may be able to 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.6D etc

But that would depend on the starter.

[Arcknight]

Well I guess it really just depends.

If the combo proration isn't too bad, you may be able to 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.6D etc

But that would depend on the starter.

For sure. I will play around with it a bit later today if I remember. Out of curiosity if anything.

[HexaNoid]

It works off of most good starters.

6A > 6C(2) > 66C > 4D > d.6C > d.214D > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > d.236D works.

Doesn't work after 5A > 5A, but you can hit-confirm the 5C into Fenrir if you have the heat

and the balls :3

.

[Arcknight]

It works off of most good starters.

6A > 6C(2) > 66C > 4D > d.6C > d.214D > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > d.236D works.

Doesn't work after 5A > 5A, but you can hit-confirm the 5C into Fenrir if you have the heat

and the balls :3

.

Well that saves me some time. Thanks Hex. 5C > Fenrir is something I would never dare try personally. >.> I do 6C > Fenrir all the time though. People expect run-in throws but get that instead.

[Elochai]

Just a quick question. I'm trying to get into Noel, but I'm not sure what some of her good pressure options are. Can someone give me some basic block strings/frame traps? Thanks.

[Sahgren]

Just a quick question. I'm trying to get into Noel, but I'm not sure what some of her good pressure options are. Can someone give me some basic block strings/frame traps? Thanks.

You can find a list of her frame traps in this post.

Noel's 5A, 2A, 2B, and 2C are all good pressure tools thanks to them being either plus or very close to neutral on block. Mixing up staggering after any of them and frame trapping to prevent mashing should let you keep pressuring and force the opponent to take a risk to get out.

[Elochai]

You can find a list of her frame traps in this post.

Noel's 5A, 2A, 2B, and 2C are all good pressure tools thanks to them being either plus or very close to neutral on block. Mixing up staggering after any of them and frame trapping to prevent mashing should let you keep pressuring and force the opponent to take a risk to get out.

Thanks! I totally didn't see that post, lol.

[Bääx]

Mixing up staggering after any of them and frame trapping to prevent mashing should let you keep pressuring and force the opponent to take a risk to get out.

I've come across several posts saying how staggering is an important technique with Noel, but I haven't been able to figure out exactly what that is. My searching so far has only come across info on the Guilty Gear stagger state, but this seems to be different.

Help?

[HexaNoid]

Stagger pressure or staggering refers to using pressure strings that have small gaps in them. The idea is that these gaps are large enough to prompt your opponent into attempting to escape in some way (pressing buttons etc.), but small enough that whatever they attempt will usually be beaten out by what you're doing or force them to carry on blocking if they know they won't win.

In Noel's case, things like 5A > 5A > 665A or 2A > 2A > 665A are the kind of things that you'll want to use for staggering, but you can experiment in training mode to find others normals and traps to throw into the mix. Like Sahgren pointed out, you'll want too mix this up with her frame traps and some tick throws to keep your opponent honest and don't forget that staggers can easily be beaten out by DPs.

[Bääx]

Thanks! Though now I may be a bit fuzzy on the difference between a stagger and a frame trap...

Damn. I just tried to refresh my memory on what a tick throw is and I can't find that either. Is there a way to get the search option to bring up specific posts instead of entire threads?

[HexaNoid]

Think of stagger pressure as a way of creating a frame trap; whereas 5A > 5A > 5A isn't a frame trap, 5A > 5A > 665A is. Tick throws are when you throw out an attack, wait for your opponent to leave blockstun and then throw them. It's a good form of mix-up used correctly and can catch your opponent off-guard if they aren't paying attention.

Is there a way to get the search option to bring up specific posts instead of entire threads?

Use the 'Search Thread' bar underneath the page selector of a thread instead of the search bar at the top.

[Bääx]

Thanks Hex! The morning sun of understanding is starting to peek over my horizon.

[Arcknight]

Aside from DPs be careful doing that against Hakumen and Tager. Frame 1 counters and possible command grabs can make you regret trying it. Try and keep that in mind.

I personally use tick-throws a LOT. They are amazingly fun.

[LunaKage]

Actually, keep in mind that 5A > 5A > 665A is not a frame trap, 5A is -1 on normal block, so if you let it recover all the way then you give your opponent 6 frames between 5As, which is even longer if you dash, which would even give Tager plenty of time to 5A you, despite the fact that his 5A is 7 frames of startup.

The reason why 5A > Recover 5A or 5A > 665A works as a stagger is because the window is so small that if your opponent tries to REACT to 5A's recovery and poke out, they will get hit, simply because human reaction isn't nearly fast enough to get away with it. The only way someone can get out of a stagger like that is if they yomi it with a poke, yomi it or react(which is still difficult) with a reversal, or are just fucking hammering on the A button with reckless abandon(but this is a dumb move, since if you use an actual frame trap, you get a free CH).

[Brak Legacy X]

I have a few questions:

1st question:

For midscreen combo enders, what is the difference between j.5D > d.6B > d.6C > d.5B > d.5C > BT and j.5D > d.6B > d.6C > d.5D > d.5C > BT?

I know that the former works on everyone but Arakune and that the latter doesn't work on some characters like Litchi and Valkenhayn, but is that really the only difference? Like, does one grant more heat or does more damage than the other?

2nd question:

Is j.5D a reliable counter?

3rd question:

While lurking around here, I came across this combo:

Noel with back to the corner

4D (FC) > d.6A > d.6C > AT > 66A > 6C > j,5D > d.4D > BT > 66C > 22B~C > 66C > j,5D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > BT

Now, is this combo character-specific? I always seem to mess up on Silencer when using it on Ragna, but when I tried it on Bang, it worked fine. It could always be an issue with hitboxes, but then again, I had trouble pulling off some SR combos before because I messed up on timing. So do I have to time Silencer right or something on characters like Ragna in order to get it? Or is the combo character-specific and will not ever work on Ragna?

[Alpha152]

I can answer the first two questions. There is really no difference between d.5D and d.5B in that string. d.5D does 1 more damage and has 1 point higher of P2 than d.5B, a very minimal difference. Corner carry is another difference but I'm not sure which one is better for that. d.5B is also much easier to use since there is no timing involved so aside from character specific combos d.5B is generally preferred.

j.D is not a reliable counter(assuming you're talking about air-ground) because of the punish you can receive if blocked but if you have meter or know your opponent is going to anti-air you then it is a good counter, high risk/high reward.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Alpha152

[LunaKage]

1. The main difference between those two combos is that the d.5D variation pretty much disallows you to use Assault Through whiff oki. Which combined with corner carry is the d.5B variations main strength. However just as Alpha said, the d.5D variation does s light bit more damage, as it also allows both hits of Bloom Trigger to connect as well.

2. j.D is not a reliable counter, but should still be used as a counter in certain situations. For example if you're sure your opponent is going to try and anti-air you, then go for a j.D, on CH you can j.D > Reload > 3C for a big combo, and in the corner you can get anywhere from 5k-6k meterless off of CH j.D, so the risk is well worth the reward. If you have 50 heat to Rapid cancel j.D on block, then there is almost no risk in that situation.

3. That combo is not character specific, however Silencer Reps are always character specific, for example you can get about 6 shots off on Ragna in an optimal position, but you can get 7 off on Tager and Bang, while you're limited to 5 for Rachel, and about 4 for Arakune. So get used to the timing for when to pop off your C silencer in Midscreen and corner combos for every character. I can't tell you how many times getting greedy with silencer caused me to lose against an Arakune because my combo dropped.

[Brak Legacy X]

Thanks for the input guys. (:

So, j.D is only a good counter if you can expect your opponent is going to anti-air, right? But other than that, is it completely useless other than being used in combos?

I can sorta see using j.D when you're in the corner being pressured to get a CH on the opponent for free 3C into stuff, but I've never actually tried it before so I don't know if it would work.

[LunaKage]

Don't use it while being pressured, it's not really a good idea.

Normally it's only good as an anti-anti-air, or as a throw bait. These ways get you a nice CH. If your opponent is in the corner and is afraid of getting grabbed, that's the best time to use j.D.

Again though, it's very unsafe, so if you have meter to rapid it, that would be best.

[Alpha152]

j.D is awesome for throw baits and is one of her better damaging options. Another place where I use j.D is against wolf Valk. If he does w[C > j.A/j.B] or w[236A] to get in for pressure j.D will beat it most of the time and can be followed up with SR or any other combo, but it won't work so well against the 236B version. It's still a risky option because he can punish easily if it whiffs but gimmicks like j.D > AT/SR can sometimes catch them off guard when they try to punish. Gimmicks work sometimes and if the payoff is good enough it's worth the risk, just like TK RB at the start of a round :3 just don't become reliant on it.

[LunaKage]

Well said Alpha. j.D is always a risk, even if you have meter to rapid it, because there's always a chance that they could move ever so slightly and make it whiff, j.D's hitbox is surprisingly thin.

[Brak Legacy X]

So, besides for throw baiting, it'd be best to avoid using it due to how punishable/unsafe it is, right?

And one last question:

Besides Challenge Mission 15, are there any better combos that incorporate Thor in the corner?

Hope I'm not asking for too much >< but I've been really appreciating the advice!

[LunaKage]

So, besides for throw baiting, it'd be best to avoid using it due to how punishable/unsafe it is, right?

And one last question:

Besides Challenge Mission 15, are there any better combos that incorporate Thor in the corner?

Hope I'm not asking for too much >< but I've been really appreciating the advice!

no problem, we're here to help :3

Thor > 66 > 2A 6C(2) > 6C > 4D > d.6C > d.214D > 446C > 5D > d.4D > d.236D > 66C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > d.236D > 6C > Fenrir

or

5B > 5C > TK Thor > 66 > 2A > 6C(2) > 66C > 4D > d.6C > d.214D > 446C > 236A > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5B > d.6B > d.5C > d.236D > 6C > Fenrir

[Brak Legacy X]

OH GOD, YES.

THOR COMBOS THAT DON'T REQUIRE j.4D. (I keep forgetting to delay j.4D when doing the Thor combo from mission 15 lol)

Thanks x 1213910328.

If DL had a karma or rating function, I'd +1 the shit out of you Luna. (And Alpha too for also being extremely helpful, especially on XBL)

Once again, I really don't know what to say to express the amount of appreciation for your guys' help. ^^