[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[DerQ]

I don't think you guys could have said it better. If we collaborate to find a solution like this over the idea of imposing rules or switching things around, there's an authority imposing itself onto others. I'm not saying that the authority shouldn't but if we can find a solution before that happens, nobody will ever worry about going the ways they were going and it will still remain most likely the environment everyone enjoys ATM.

That said, gameplay thread worked for other boards and solves the issue quite perfectly IMO. If you want the raw input on the character, you don't need to go through the steps of navigating this 50+ page thread and we get to be as friendly and motivated towards each other as always.

[Rorshock520]

Just chiming in here...

I rarely post in this thread, but I do read it frequently. I'd just like to say that half of the reason I got interested in Amane was that the community seemed really friendly (the other half was his chip damage, lol). I love how cool the Amane community seems, so it'd be a shame to crack down on it.

[STenSatsu]

Eh most of the posts in the thread are generally relevant. Usually it's just the posts about how fabulous he is that stray from semi-gameplay. Even the Tao thing just now stemmed from matchup thoughts. If we can reign in on the 'sparkles' posts that'd probably be fine.

[Bedsheets]

I have been trying to think if I noticed anything worth mentioning in my games from yesterday, and all I can think of is:

CT does not launch the enemy into the air when it hits a grounded opponent. It sends already airborne opponents skyhigh but grounded enemies stay on the ground. It pushes the enemy a good distance back and puts them in a good amount of hitstun. I was too busy being surprised that I landed my CT to follow up but I imagine that C follow ups are pretty much guaranteed. Possibly forward fabhop into j.5b or other follow ups are possible.

Speaking of j.5b, I feel like it is perhaps Amane's most important normal. It covers a lot of space, it stays out for a long time, and most importantly it seems like its hitbox is a good distance from Amane's hurt box. I am pretty sure if spaced correctly that most enemies AAs will not hit you (stuff like Ragna's 6A) and possibly it will even tag the enemy. j.2B and j.5D however will get stuffed pretty handily by AAs. So, I think we will need to train our opponents to not want to throw out their AAs using 5B, and then once we have them blocking we can go either for stuff like j.5D chip or j.2B crossup combos.

I'd say his most important specials are actually his fab hops. Amane didn't really make a lot of sense (the range on some of his moves, the angle they attack at, etc) until we started seeing people using more fab hop cancels. Obviously they play a key role in a lot of his combos but it is more than that. Take for example this pressure series that we can see Shadow doing in his most recent video. He goes 5B > 3C > backwards fabhop > j.5C > forward fabhop > j.5b > 5A > 5B > 5D > forward fabhop > j.5B. Without using the fabhop Amane lets the situation reset to neutral too often. Using fabhops allows us to correctly position to follow up on our attacks and keeps the enemy on their toes.

As for non-gameplay related stuff. I think splitting things into a gameplay only thread and an everything else thread makes a lot of sense. It should be fairly obvious what should go into what thread and should help out people that are just looking for raw information. I am also fine with things staying the way they are. I am flexible.

Also, in a further effort to help separate the wheat from the chaff if anyone has a question for me specifically or a thing they want me to test specifically, feel free to send me a PM.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Bedsheets

[DerQ]

Here's one for you, I kept seeing shadow doing this :

j.5C > Forward fabhop > j.2B (Far away from opponent) > Land > 3C

I wonder how good/fast this sequence comes out or if it's loose enough to only have come out when they're expecting to block the j.5B after the fabhop. Of course that's if you condition them to do so. I'm assuming j.5C > Fabhop > j.5B is actually a frame trap that's just tight enough to make the opponent scared of using something like a DP.

I was just wondering how much you'd get from that high/low pressure after j.5C. Success? Decent damage? Decent pushback for corner carry?

[WillWork4Instal]

We should have a Bedsheets thread with his recordings.

And a Skype group? I don't use Skype.

Also, can Amane do a nice, simple, 5A>5B>5C>5D combo? (this is making this post gameplay related)

[Bedsheets]

If you can land a close to the ground j.2B it launches the opponent and you can go into Amane's big time damage combos (5B>5C>6C>236A>j.5C>j.6C>j.2C>236A>j.5D>j.236C type of stuff). Off of the j.5B you can potentially get stuff like 5A>5B>3C>Drill Oki or 5A>5B>5D>fabhop pressure.

So, yeah, that seems like some really strong follow up stuff to j.5C. Good find!

Edit: WillWork4Instal:

Not really. 5B doesn't combo into 5C, except for perhaps at very specific ranges, and it would probably need to be a counter hit. Amane's really basic combos are 5A>5B>3C for knockdown or 5A>5B>5D for damage.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Bedsheets

[sparkaura]

How useful is the hand grab move (623 C or D?)? it seems really fast and can help against zoners if it auto tracks.

[Toasty]

Not really. 5B doesn't combo into 5C, except for perhaps at very specific ranges, and it would probably need to be a counter hit. Amane's really basic combos are 5A>5B>3C for knockdown or 5A>5B>5D for damage.

And if the opponent is crouching, the 5C will whiff even if they're at the correct range. 2C is a generally safer option.

[Bedsheets]

How useful is the hand grab move (623 C or D?)? it seems really fast and can help against zoners if it auto tracks.

It sadly does not auto track. It does however, never extend past the end of the level (unlike ground drills). So, it has some definite applications in the corner in combos and could punish people trying to jump out of the corner. I have only ever seen someone land the hand grab (623C btw) in a non-corner situation once.

Also, to clarify something on my last post. 5B>5C combos very nicely on opponents that are in the air.

[WillWork4Instal]

Not really. 5B doesn't combo into 5C, except for perhaps at very specific ranges, and it would probably need to be a counter hit. Amane's really basic combos are 5A>5B>3C for knockdown or 5A>5B>5D for damage.

A character that I can't just press four buttons and get a combo? THIS CHARACTER IS CRAP ASFDSFGF

And Sparkaura, I don't believe it homes in. But the move is pleasing to watch

EDIT:Curse slow fingers.

[sparkaura]

It sadly does not auto track. It does however, never extend past the end of the level (unlike ground drills). So, it has some definite applications in the corner in combos and could punish people trying to jump out of the corner. I have only ever seen someone land the hand grab (623C btw) in a non-corner situation once.

Also, to clarify something on my last post. 5B>5C combos very nicely on opponents that are in the air.

Thats unfortunate, if it did auto track it would be great for zoning(curse you Nu). I have seen it in action in the corner, i feel like it does a decent amount of damage and could potentially make our corner combos stronger while setting up oki.

[Toasty]

So I just got a really good idea regarding the whole gameplay thread thing- We can just leave this thread as-is and then have a Q&A thread to answer any questions that aren't immediately answered in the other threads. The discussions in this thread seem very fluid and often relate to original ideas that could be a few pages back, and this would honestly be no different with a gameplay thread that was free of anything else. A Q&A thread would allow anyone to instantly get the answer to whatever they were wondering about without having to search through several posts/pages of discussion (be it gameplay or otherwise) and would not disrupt the current conversation in here or run the risk of having your question/answer to your question getting buried.

I wouldn't even mind answering the same question multiple times if it means helping everyone. :3

[Silmerion]

Why not have a group right here, on DL? Like Tsubaki Yayoi General, that place is crazy active.

[Toasty]

Why not have a group right here, on DL? Like Tsubaki Yayoi General, that place is crazy active.

For several reasons really. An unintended consequence of the group is that it did in fact take away from the traffic in the Tsubaki subforum itself, but the main reason is that a group would not address the main issue of not being able to fish through several pages of info to find what you want. A gameplay thread would be no different than this one in that respect, so there would be some futility in putting harsher rules on the thread without actually changing much (since the vast majority of this thread is already gameplay-related). A Q&A will get you what you need right away without having to read though a whole bunch of pages where your question may not even be answered.

But this did give me the idea to make a guide thread, but that wouldn't be until sometime after console release.

[Errol]

Not so much, groups is where communities go to die. It's not dead but it's nothing like it used to be.

[Silmerion]

Well, I was just thinking that we could use the DL group for random non-meaningful chatter about the character/community and the subforum exclusively for gameplay stuff (i.e. a Q&A thread, an FAQ thread, a general gameplay discussion thread, etc.).

[mAc Chaos]

It was the plan all along, Errol. ;o

[Aloci]

The fabhop pressure stuff sounds really great. I feel like it's further emphasizing his gameplan as a mid-range rushdown/pressure character. Feel free to space all you want, but your main goal is to condition them with endless fabpressure and then just hit them with that low or that overhead. I'm assuming 3C is cancelable into hops so 3C, 236A, j.5B/j.2B might be good stuff to mix them up with.

Hey Bedsheets, I know we ask a lot, but could you check something else for me (pretty please)?

How quickly can you stick out an attack after a hop?

I like both ideas: The Gameplay thread and the Q&A thread.

We could always have the front page post in either one be a list of commonly asked questions and the like. Toasty is already way ahead of me.

Also I've probably been one of the more off-topicy posters, so I'll try to keep my posts related like I should have been lol

We should have a Bedsheets thread with his recordings.

And a Skype group? I don't use Skype.

Also, can Amane do a nice, simple, 5A>5B>5C>5D combo? (this is making this post gameplay related)

I don't use Skype either. But it's free and anyone can download it.

If I had a reason to use it though, then I'd be on all the time.

[Toasty]

The fabhop pressure stuff sounds really great. I feel like it's further emphasizing his gameplan as a mid-range rushdown/pressure character. Feel free to space all you want, but your main goal is to condition them with endless fabpressure and then just hit them with that low or that overhead. I'm assuming 3C is cancelable into hops so 3C, 236A, j.5B/j.2B might be good stuff to mix them up with.

3C is special cancellable, so you assumed correctly. That means we can make it safe on block with a backwards fabhop, unless it's safe already (in which case it might be good in pressure then).

[Aloci]

3C is special cancellable, so you assumed correctly. That means we can make it safe on block with a backwards fabhop, unless it's safe already (in which case it might be good in pressure then).

A safe sweep... That would be amazing. Haha but a backwards fabhop could just let Amane keep on pressure with more buttons.

I'm still curious about his Drill Stance cancels. They look fairly quick so maybe something like:

Whatever, 3C xx Stance Cancel, Throw/6B/2B/5D chip/3C again

I know his long range C normals cause massive hitstun, but I don't know about his others so this may or may not be as useful as I'm hoping.

[Bedsheets]

How quick you can attack after you hop is a great question. It is pretty quick, though, I am not sure if there is a minimum time before you can attack. On to the testing list it goes!

3C into backwards fabhop would let you either do j.5B if they run at you or j.5C if they don't (I think the block stun would be short enough that they would have some movement options). And if they block the j.5C then you can forward fabhop to continue pressure. Seems like a pretty good set of options off of a blocked 3C.

Skype is VoIP yeah? Could be useful for some of you guys, but, due to timezones and living on the other side of the world I probably personally wouldn't get much use out of it.

[STenSatsu]

Honestly, the common theme to winning with Amane seems to be making them eat or block a 6d so you can easily charge to lvl 3. His other drill moves don't seem to charge the meter much at all.

I think OD canceled 6b will also be really good if it is possible. You mentioned CT knocking them back bedsheets, does it just put them in the stagger state I assume?

God I want my hands on this guy to test combo theories -_-.

[Bedsheets]

His other drill moves do not charge the meter that much, you are correct. However, they are the drill moves the scale much more heavily with your heat level. 5D at level 3 heat is a monster, 6D at level 3 heat is an overheating liability. Making the enemy eat/block a 6D is basically your chance to set your drill heat to whatever level you want. However, 6D is incredibly unsafe. Slow start up, slow recovery. Against characters with no ranged attack if they decide to go full screen you can charge some. But really, the only truly reliable way to make someone block a 6D is to drop it on them while they are block a ground drill. And the only truly reliable way to make someone block a ground drill is to score a knockdown on them. Scoring that first knockdown so you can set your drill level is huge for Amane. This is one of the reasons why I really like ODing at the start to get level 3 that way, I feel like it allows me a much more flexible starting game plan.

CT knocks back on the ground and staggers. I feel very confident in saying that you will be able to combo off of it (otherwise it would be like, the worst CT in the game). I just did not have the presence of mind to follow up with anything.

[STenSatsu]

I actually noticed Gagaga just eat the drills when ganguro put the ground+6d drill on him as oki. It seemed like it did less damage than he would have taken from chip. I imagine that is due to scaling from ground drill but seems like a good way to escape a lot of the pain.

Fuck, so many questions. Guess I'll list my thoughts and if you want to try them out you can lol -_-.

How is ground drill scaling at different levels? Does a combo started with ground drill at various levels do good damage?

What is the hitstun/blockstun like after the last hit of ground drill? If it is very quick, throw mixups might be a very good option after if you have already built drill meter with 6d.

Which moves gatling into his 5d and 2d? Are they just like regular normals and can be cancelled into from 5b and such?

Can you pick somebody up otg with 5b after you 6c them into the corner? Something like 6c>5b>2d>straight air drill (j.6d?). Maybe even 6c>5b>236c>5b>2d>>etc. on a fatal.

Does ending a combo with 623c give you any oki options or can they tech fairly quickly? (Especially if you end with it with them in the corner since it doesn't go out of screen.)