[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[Kiba]

Though now I'm wondering how long his CT is untechable for and if you can setup drills from that.

Does this help?

[STenSatsu]

Thanks DerQ/Kiba. That looks like a better way to do it outside of air-to-air hit confirms.

@Rish: Think that is the first time I've seen his name pop up.

[DerQ]

Has Kei always been around? I haven't heard of him til now, I like the way he does things. http://youtu.be/G5-2RPi973U Watch the two matches of him in this vid, if you haven't seen him either.

What I really like about him is that he manages to get his drill level 3 all the time. Something Sonya chan doesn't quite do. Kei looks like he really scares the other players.

http://youtu.be/N6q1VieroOk?t=15m36s 2C into 6D seems fairly reliable from this

I just went through the released vids on pktazn and jourdal and I have 24 amane vids in the backlog ;_; reality check time.

[Aloci]

Man I haven't been here in a while...

I'm glad to see that the Amane players seem to be refining their gameplan.

I'm really enjoying this Kei guy.

[Lich]

Idk. Amane isn't really looking low tier to me. I see him win a lot of matches. lvl 3 drill is really powerful, and it isn't too hard for him to get it. On top of his neutral game being really good. Idk, he's looking pretty strong to me. I wouldn't say he's top tier, but he's not bad I don't think.

My favorite player so far is spinking, but I haven't been watching too many Amane videos so I don't really know who the stronger Amanes are, but from what I've seen Amane is doing alright.

[NumeroGaijin]

That new guy that fought the #2 Azrael Tachi or whatever his name is pretty darn good. Makes Amane look extremely viable with his formal play.

[Xeion]

Hina didn't seem to rely on charging drill but I'm sure that's due to azrael's potential distortion. The drill super rapid with fabhop corner carry was tight though.

[STenSatsu]

I think the Azrael matchup would be a great place for the j.236c RC>land 6d tech in order to level the drill since it's not drill pressure that is the problem but drill oki.

[DerQ]

I catched up on all the vids

I cleaned up a lot of my pre-console release notes that can be found online for everyone to share/enjoy or simply curious

It's crazy how good players have become with the character as of lately. Really entertaining to watch some of the matches. Watched that FT10 today and Hina showcased so many stuff and even matchup specifics. Really all around solid play in all aspects.

As for now... When's CP?

Mind Games Lol

Edited March 20, 2013 by DerQ

[BatousaiJ]

This is a good character and I will main him.

[BatousaiJ]

That was an april fools joke.

I dislike the way Amane looks and plays and probably wouldn't even sub him.

[DerQ]

Anybody knows if j.D needs to be blocked high (like the C moves)

Just fell on this beauty and I'm wondering if instant overheads for like 1-1.5k is a thing. In any case it's still an interesting way to pressure.

[Kanashimi]

Just fell on this beauty

It seems likely as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zwZusf3O20Y#t=29s will more than likely become some heavy blockstrings but meh.

[DerQ]

It seems likely as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zwZusf3O20Y#t=29s will more than likely become some heavy blockstrings but meh.

I don't know, I feel j.D leaves barely to no hitstun which would make sense considering the hitstun decay on an increased number of hits. I'm more curious as the uses for drill management. When you're in their face, you can keep your drill up as easily as this allows you while maintaining pressure. Plus if you hit them with that mixed with this low hitstun, you end up in a situation where you can go for grab mixups which have some of the best rewards on the character.

Just after posting this: I fall on this Just my 2 cents, but 5D right here with the amount of Barrier used wouldn't have done any damage. This is less reactable, more in your face and doesn't reset your pressure to neutral game. It's godlike

Edited April 3, 2013 by DerQ

[DerQ]

I was wondering, do we have any access to normals and specials starting properties. Just recently saw the info on untech time and how combos were time-based and how which starter affected what. The thing is that Amane has "loops" and I'm wondering if there are starters that would lead into these said loops.

For the record, when I mean loops I'm talking about j.2B's repeated ground bounce effect as well as the ability to do loops from 6C or 5C. You know how you can do reps to carry the opponent on the screen

Pure theory crafting here, but since there are starters that will can leave you with 5 full seconds of unaffected untech time (the ones I'm looking for), I'm wondering if there would be a way to use ressources to setup the opponent into w/e loop you wish. Picture this :

-Hit opponent with excellent starter

-Overdrive cancel

-Go into a loop for 3-5 seconds

-Meanwhile your overdrive is giving you free drill meter

-After known amount of reps, untech time will kick in, continue into regular combo that ends with lvl.3 drill usage

I havn't seen a way to utilize overdrive mid-combos besides for basic ideas such as preventing opponent to burst, but I'm sure there has to be something to be done with this in terms of optimization. Even if you don't use overdrive, maybe spending meter from said good starter into a decent loop rep would just increase your damage output overall. I just hope we don't end up with an array of starters that simply don't allow that. That would be so disappointing.

[TD]

not sure what amane's best starters are yet, probably 5b most c attacks, etc. loops seem to be like (starter)(launcher)5b(loop)(ender), with starter and launcher probably being the same (unless there is a way to get a launcher mid combo ala j2b). im just speculating though.

[DerQ]

It's really hard to guess until we get our hands on such an info and pair that up with known routes. At which point in a known combo route would you be able to spend ressources to lead to a loop and from there, just how much fixed untech time do you get? The most educated guess would be Fatal 6C for the additional hitstun + the fact that it would lead straight up to a loop. Only issue is... you'll never have an opponent press buttons at the range where 6C would hit... There are situations where the opponent will want to jump at which 6C is the perfect normal.

Whether this ends up being combo video material or not is also an entirely different view on this whole thing too.

[TD]

No, this is standard stuff, assuming the loops are, and will remain, an optimal combo path.

Either way you're going to have to either launch the foe using a launcher, or they'll have to be hit out if the air. Most loops start out like this because the foe needs to be in the air for 5b to knock them to the optima spacing so the c moves will hit

Info is coming soon as well, pretty sure loops are doable from 80+ prorate.

[DerQ]

Info is coming soon as well, pretty sure loops are doable from 80+ prorate.

Have you checked how untech decay works? Reading this makes me think we're not talking about the same thing. Not to say I'm right and know it all, obviously not, but I just think we're talking about 2 different things here.

Also, the info "should" be out. You can check the wiki for BBCP on DL and some of the mods have started updating their frame data.

[Kurushii]

Yea, TD I believe you are thinking the old way. In BBCP P1 and P2 only effect damage scaling not untech. They added Starter Rating to BBCP which puts a classification on every starter for combos. As you'll see in the frame data they are labeled S, N, F, and M. Which mean Slow, Normal, Fast, and Moment starters. Each of those ratings places your combo into a certain position of the combo rating timer.

S ~ 0F

N ~ 180F

F ~ 360F

M ~ 540F

Take your starter value then continue to add frames of animation during the combo. So once you hit 480F of the timer you'll lose about 2F of hitstun and so on until you hit 820F when it's autotech.

480F ~ -2F

540F ~ -4F

600F ~ -6F

660F ~ -9F

720F ~ -12F

780F ~ -15F

820F ~ autotech

SMP works in that once the certain move has been done twice, a certain number of frames is added to the combo rating timer.

Lv1 ~ 120F

Lv2 ~ 240F

Lv3 ~ 360F

For example, supposed i'm at around frame 240 and i accidentally performed a move twice with SMP level 2. at that point, 240 frames are added to the timer, making it 480. I'd start losing frames right from the get go.

[Thanks based god KayEff for the information translation]

[TD]

OH ok so I was thinking something completely different. thanks for clarifying guys. I completely forgot they changed the way combos are done now.

[DerQ]

SNIP

*breathes in*

...

And from what Kaeru has told me, there are no S starters at all on his character (bang). I wouldn't be surprised if that would be globalized, but only programmed in the engine. Meaning under this assumption, the best we get is a N starter meaning 5 seconds of COMPLETE untech decay. Assume you get 1 second to setup your loop properly... that's still 4 seconds of loops, a j.2b rep takes what... 0.6-0.75 seconds. Get 4-5 reps of that, then go into a full combo route. Here's what compelled me to think that way:

Extra fixed untech time = extra time to do w/e the hell you can followed by what is your regular combo on hitstun decay. Let's get some theory routes going:

-Get good starter

-Setup loops

-Untech time decay kicks in

-stop loop, go into untech decay part of a combo and end it that way

This takes a few things into consideration:

-That there is a good starter that leads into a loop.

-That combos we are used to see works throughout untech decay. This means that what we assume is an optimized combo at the moment only is whenever hitstun decay is in play. What I mean is that BnBs could be done without fixed hitstun decay in mind and they're only done with what's known to work doesn't benefit from extra frames to do w/e we want upperhand.

-That these routes will work when histun decay is higher. If the decay is stronger, some known routes might not be viable anymore. If you do an extra rep of a loop, you won't get to do the full part of your combo tailored to work with decay in mind for instance.

I think some combo routes already have been thought with this design in mind. An instance that /might/ apply is 6D setups where you force a reset or a blue beat into your drill level. Now what I'm wondering is "Can this be optimized in more creative or straightly damaging routes, can I juice out more of certain starters". I paired that need with the fact that I'm not satisfied with OD usage mid combos. A lot of characters have starters with OD combo routes in mind. Since this character was originally designed in a environment where such a thing exists, I couldn't believe developers being content with Amane's OD only giving level 3 drill. This poses the question: Is there a way to run a combo that will run long enough for your OD to build level 3 drill mid combo? So far, the answer to this as been pretty unsatysfying so far until this came along

The combo route I posted earlier makes sense on paper. Fixed untech time means extended combos, fixed untech time means you're not shitting on your proration by abusing a move, this fixed untech time on a good starter is enough time for overdrive to build Drill to 3 AND this character has "loops" for which he can place the opponent in the desirable situation for whenever untech decay kicks in. If you take a look at this and count the time, it's about 4-5 seconds (which is exactly the allowed time for loops I mentionned) .

Pretty neat, so what else do we need to find? A starter that would seem fairly easy to hit confirm into an OD cancel and that has good starter proration. It also need to lead into a know loop, Let's take 3C as an example! It low profiles stuff and is super easy to hitconfirm on CH It's also very safe as you can just fabhop away. Take a look at the following clip. From the looks, OD cancel off 3C leaves PLENTY enough time to setup j.2B loops.

So we'd get a combo route such as this:

-3C into overdrive

-Run 2B loop for 3-4 seconds

-Your OD finally gave you level 3 drill

-2B, 5B, 5C, 6C, 2D, 6D OR 2B, 5B, 5C, 6C, OD super (assuming you still have OD by this point)

You get the full damage of the loop without fucking up the rest of your combo. Looking at the frames above. You would get about 5 more seconds (300F) before hitstun is completly decayed. But even there, it would still work pretty good because lvl 3 drill have so much hitstun and you're guaranteed to be able to hold down the drill button for as much as you want. Actually, all of Amane's ender are multi hits that shouldn't be deeply affected by histun decay (besides Raibu, I've seen it once I think). So on paper, this works absolutely perfectly only if you assume the following:

-Moves that would lead into a loop actually have decent starter rating. The 3C example above blows up if 3C isn't a good starter. It's an educated guess that C moves are better starter (like previous games). That means 5C, 6C, 3C would all be great moves for this.

-That you will have enough OD time to make it all worthwhile

-That this will actually optimize damage and not just how much you can squeeze more attacks before hitstun decay forces your combo to go bluebeat

-Probably more that I can't think of ATM

So here's a list of loops we could think of utilizing this way in some manner:

-Amane not moving + 2B, 5B, 5C, 6C shenanigans

-Amane moving + 5C, fabhop, j.b, 5B, 5C

-Same thing as above, but backwards

-Crush trigger extra rep + 5C, 6C, crush trigger, 5B, 5C, 6C .... (don't have video proof, but I have seen that it's possible. Just didn't take time to write down video and timestamp)

-j.2B loops

Of course, I'm think not all of them would allow to squeeze many reps within a 3-5 seconds time span, but they're what you could define as loops provided that you'd have no hitstun decay.

...

*breathes in*

Edited April 6, 2013 by DerQ

[skd]

currently, the only S move i know of is ragna 22c

[DerQ]

currently, the only S move i know of is ragna 22c

What... how will you actually land this besides your opponent not teching on knockdown? Can't wait to see 22C RC max OD into full blood kain combo in CMVs.

Also hi

[STenSatsu]

Do we know how CT/OD affect combo time? I remember them saying you'd be able to extend it with such things in that interview.

Also, iirc 6c is his best starter damage wise. The proration info was linked earlier in the thread but last time I checked it had become private and I don't think anyone had copied it down.