[CP] Carl Clover Gameplay Discussion (Changelog in OP)

[Michiru]

So if you know this, then why do majority of you seem to doubt that our character would be one of the strongest characters. If you look at the characters who initially gave Carl trouble we would be looking at the following; Mu-12, Litchi, Tao, Haku-men, and Valkenhyn. These are by far the hardest matchups to play for a Carl play minus a few that are subjective (My opinion, match-up charts, and Japanese videos are my proof). So if you look at each character there are only a few who have changed in our favor, or slightly in our favor.

Mu-12 has a increase in recovery on several of her zoning tools. At the same time her damage output has also been nerfed. Although it may not be by that much her damage has still been nerfed along with our anti zoning tools being buffed. It makes this matchup slightly easier for a Carl to win.

If you look at litchi,,, her Daisharin was nerfed which was one of her strongest tools. Her average damage was also nerfed. She still has her zoning but once again the difference in this matchup is that our zoning has been buffed greatly. It makes it slightly easier for us to zone back.

Then lastly there is Haku-men, while not much has changed his counters were nerfed to the extreme which makes this matchup actually do-able against a skilled and easier against a unskilled haku-men. It is because of all of this that our numbers on the matchup chart have gone up in our favor.

While Tao and Valkenhyn those two matchups will remain hard for us, and still deep in their favor however it did not get worse. Thanks to the damage and meter nerf that was given to Valk. The matchup is still the same, he just has to work harder longer. Meaning more chances for us to catch this little puppy and show him why damage is so important. Valk also has low Hp which has always been good for us.

As for Tao, that battle will forever be a lost cause, until Brio wall bounces midscreen on air counter hit this matchup will forever be in her favor. Not much one can do to stop her, the pace of this fight moves whenever she wants it to.

Once again I apologize for the rant. However I do not see why some of you doubt Carl in the next installment. From the looks of things we can safely say that we can net a good 4k from any Ada starter (Which should be easy since that is how this character is designed), we can get a good 3.5k from a Carl starter (Which is less, however it makes sense), and if we were to get a Ada starter and add CT im sure the damage would be amazing. Ada starter>CT>combo> OD-DD would be amazing…..

I just wish some of you would have faith. Numbers do not lie if you can get. What do you all think?

Edit:

^you are 100% correct

Unfortunately, the only thing we can do now is speculate (whiich is one of the most annoying things to do) until we get our hands on a copy of CP. I was even thinking of importing it but i hope it isn't region locked because that would suck.

Sorry i forgot about this, but as i said before numbers do not lie.

Carl in BBCSE gets about 4k from everything, if you look at his P1 starters you can see that they are all in the 85~90 P1 range. It is this reason that we are able to obtain our damage in BBCSE the numbers do not lie. So in a sense I would'nt call it speculation. Its more along the sides of logical thinking, because of X Y can do this. And the reason Y can do this is because X did this. Im not sure if anyone understood that analogy =( sorry if I am being to confusing.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Michiru

[Psykotik]

So if you know this, then why do majority of you seem to doubt that our character would be one of the strongest characters. If you look at the characters who initially gave Carl trouble we would be looking at the following; Mu-12, Litchi, Tao, Haku-men, and Valkenhyn. These are by far the hardest matchups to play for a Carl play minus a few that are subjective (My opinion, match-up charts, and Japanese videos are my proof). So if you look at each character there are only a few who have changed in our favor, or slightly in our favor.

Mu-12 has a increase in recovery on several of her zoning tools. At the same time her damage output has also been nerfed. Although it may not be by that much her damage has still been nerfed along with our anti zoning tools being buffed. It makes this matchup slightly easier for a Carl to win.

If you look at litchi,,, her Daisharin was nerfed which was one of her strongest tools. Her average damage was also nerfed. She still has her zoning but once again the difference in this matchup is that our zoning has been buffed greatly. It makes it slightly easier for us to zone back.

Then lastly there is Haku-men, while not much has changed his counters were nerfed to the extreme which makes this matchup actually do-able against a skilled and easier against a unskilled haku-men. It is because of all of this that our numbers on the matchup chart have gone up in our favor.

While Tao and Valkenhyn those two matchups will remain hard for us, and still deep in their favor however it did not get worse. Thanks to the damage and meter nerf that was given to Valk. The matchup is still the same, he just has to work harder longer. Meaning more chances for us to catch this little puppy and show him why damage is so important. Valk also has low Hp which has always been good for us.

The thing about Carl is that even though his damage isn't bad, he has to do a bit more work than everyone else. Whereas characters like Jin, Mu and Hakumen can get potentially high damage off random confirms, Carl needs to sandwich is opponent to get decent damage. As for his matchups, you can't really say that X-Y match-up is better for X just because Y got nerfed. You have to look at everything, which also include X's nerfs and Y's buffs. To address the individual matchups:

- As long as Mu has normals like 5C and j.C, her matchup against Carl won't ever be bad. Mu also received some buffs to her midscreen damage and other little things. Mu is still very strong.

- Hakumen's counters being blockable don't really make this matchup easier at all. In past games, the counters were only part of the problem as his normals and strong space control was the main issue. In CP, his counters are still functional to the point where he can blow up some of Carl's mixups and he even got buffs to his already strong neutral and high damage.

- Wolf meter nerf is a pain of Valk. His ability to be almost anywhere on the screen is an even bigger pain for Carl.

Sorry i forgot about this, but as i said before numbers do not lie.

Carl in BBCSE gets about 4k from everything, if you look at his P1 starters you can see that they are all in the 85~90 P1 range. It is this reason that we are able to obtain our damage in BBCSE the numbers do not lie. So in a sense I would'nt call it speculation. Its more along the sides of logical thinking, because of X Y can do this. And the reason Y can do this is because X did this. Im not sure if anyone understood that analogy =( sorry if I am being to confusing.

CP's combo system actually received a few changes; The proration of the first attack is actually P1*P2*combo rate. Even though Carl can get good damage off Ada starters, his damage off his normals as starters is substantially lower and that's where most of his damage will come from. The specifics of CP's combo system are still unknown so until a mook comes out for the game, we won't actually know how high his damage can be.

No one here's saying Carl's unviable or anything but considering how strong some of the cast has become, Carl has some competition for s-tier. Don't get me wrong, Carl's still looks good in CP but his weaknesses (bad defensive options, sub-par normals, not-so-great mobility) must also be factored in determining his overall character as a character.

[Michiru]

The thing about Carl is that even though his damage isn't bad, he has to do a bit more work than everyone else. Whereas characters like Jin, Mu and Hakumen can get potentially high damage off random confirms, Carl needs to sandwich is opponent to get decent damage. As for his matchups, you can't really say that X-Y match-up is better for X just because Y got nerfed. You have to look at everything, which also include X's nerfs and Y's buffs. To address the individual matchups:

I apologize but that is not what i was referring to when i mentioned the X & Y stuff, I was referring to his combo ability when i mentioned that.

[Psykotik]

I know lol, I'm just using X and Y as the name of two arbitrary characters. And don't apologize, discussion is good!

[Rishtopher]

Even though Carl can get good damage off Ada starters, his damage off his normals as starters is substantially lower and that's where most of his damage will come from. No one here's saying Carl's unviable or anything but considering how strong some of the cast has become, Carl has some competition for s-tier. Don't get me wrong, Carl's still looks good in CP but his weaknesses (bad defensive options, sub-par normals, not-so-great mobility) must also be factored in determining his overall character as a character.

This pretty much sums up the general attitude of the Carl boards I think. Personally, I just don't like the idea that I have to work harder for the same amount of damage while the other characters I play just got buffed in ways that makes seemingly more fun and viable.

Anything new to report on Carl though? I feel like all we do is go back and forth with people saying either "this Carl sucks" or "no he doesn't".

[Michiru]

We are doing the same amount of work that we have been doing since the beginning of Blazblue so I am not understanding this whole "We do more work" could someone please elaborate on this for me? I would greatly appreciate it.

[Psykotik]

Carl simply doesn't have the tools to rush down as his normals aren't very good and Ada is slowly and avoidable if improperly used. He has to be more methodical in his offensive approach and once he gets in, he's still not getting that damage unless he gets the sandwich. Compare this to characters like Jin and Mu, who both have better normals, better mobility and can get more consistent damage off random hits.

[YukiBlue]

Carl simply doesn't have the tools to rush down as his normals aren't very good and Ada is slowly and avoidable if improperly used. He has to be more methodical in his offensive approach and once he gets in, he's still not getting that damage unless he gets the sandwich. Compare this to characters like Jin and Mu, who both have better normals, better mobility and can get more consistent damage off random hits.

Every character has to be methodical. Yeah, Carl does have to work harder on average, but I think most people vastly overestimate how hard it is to play Carl.

You say he doesn't have tools to rush down? Carl has Ada to cover his movement options, Volante and Fuoco both come to mind as solid approach tools that bolster his overall offensive potential.

Of course I'm not going to lecture you on Carl. But the damage and mixups Carl gets frighten me more than any other character in the game, the lack of random hit conversion doesn't mean shit when you're in the £1 McChicken Sandwich of pain.

[Psykotik]

Perhaps methodical wasn't really the right word but I'm saying Carl has to deal with an awkward moveset and can't really get his game started if Nirvana's not there or Nirvana's gauge is too low. It's not THAT much harder than other people and if he does get his game going, your opponent will have to try to block some of the dirtiest mixups in the game.

[Michiru]

Perhaps methodical wasn't really the right word but I'm saying Carl has to deal with an awkward moveset and can't really get his game started if Nirvana's not there or Nirvana's gauge is too low. It's not THAT much harder than other people and if he does get his game going, your opponent will have to try to block some of the dirtiest mixups in the game.

What I was saying was that this is nothing new to Carl so why make such a big deal out of it. As for the damage, 4k midscreen is a very decent amount of damage from unblockable mixup. So I wouldnt worry to much about his damage. Yes the damage Carl gets in this new version from a standard poke is not the best. However that is not how he is suppose to be played either. His setups net him a way larger amount of damage in the next version thanks to his CT. Or at least this is how i see things.

[Psykotik]

His damage is actually about the same as previous versions with CT (meterless damage got nerfed).

In other news, apparently Kyaku switched to Ragna Litchi. Today is a sad day for Carl players.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Psykotik

[Akanishi]

His damage is actually about the same as previous versions with CT (meterless damage got nerfed).

In other news, apparently Kyaku switched to Ragna. Today is a sad day for Carl players.

Kyaku decided to switch to Litchi now. I saw his tweet an hour ago.

[Rishtopher]

Wow...that's actually kinda sad. Who are the big names who are still playing Carl? I don't know enough Japanese players.

[JG]

Wow...that's actually kinda sad. Who are the big names who are still playing Carl? I don't know enough Japanese players.

...................... Dio ............................... and he suck.....

God lord! How the fuck this is possible.... fuuck.. NO Kyaku, no Ryussei..... i suppose that Carl should be really bad or just don't worth it if the top player are dropping it.

Edited January 22, 2013 by JG

[Psykotik]

Eh, I'm still sticking with him no matter what. He's too much fun to play and he looks like he's going to be strong (or at least viable) anyways. I do find the fact that all these players are dropping him to be quite interesting though.

Wow...that's actually kinda sad. Who are the big names who are still playing Carl? I don't know enough Japanese players.

I posted some videos of Ito not too long ago in the video thread. Admittedly, I haven't seen Ito play before CP despite having heard about him for a long time but his playing looks pretty top-tier to me. Eesuke's another Carl that I enjoy watching but idk if he's still playing Carl.

inb4eesukedropscarl

[mAc Chaos]

Would you guys rather have CP Carl or CT Carl.

[Rishtopher]

Would you guys rather have CP Carl or CT Carl.

I honestly don't even remember what CT Carl could do. Clap loop? That was dumb.

I'll stick with CP. I don't think CP Carl is bad, he just looks like less fun that CSEX Carl. I'll probably have more to say when I get my hands on him, but for now, I'd rather just learn Carl Lite™ in preparation for CP.

[Michiru]

I would prefer CP Carl solely because of La tennereza. With La tennereza specific matchups become a little bit better like vs Litchi and Mu-12. While Ada is full screen vs majority of the cast they can continue to zone (Not as much as they would with Ada not being there, obviously) and poke Ada to punish/prevent Brio (If Brio was done while they were on the ground) and any other attack you may have done. Not only is the move fast but it forces pull and has a significant amount of hitstun so that we may IAD towards you and continue to combo. Against non-zoning characters who will be blocking this move more often then not; it is a good poke that causes pull but due to how plus it is it can prove very useful because it will close the gap significantly if we IAD while the enemy is blocking.

If you add in the following factors it makes it very risky to zone Carl for those projectile zoning characters (Litchi, Mu, Nu, and Rachel) and characters just trying not to approach. Due to this they will be inclined to jump over Ada, so in a since La tennereza is Ground Brio which makes you want to jump so you may get hit by the original Brio. Not only does it make someone want to jump but it also makes people want to approach Carl since getting him by a CH La tennereza is very dangerous, but in turn will put the enemy in CON (Sandwich Position) which is always a good thing. However there are matches where absolutely nothing has changed such as the Tao matchup which unfortunately we will be having the same issues that we were having before.. and in every other version of the game. Carl has no forward dash, coupled with not so good normals makes for a very easy win for Tao and Valkenhayn.

For this Carl in Chrono Phantasma, to have La tennereza adds to the mental mind-game of the character. Now people are foced to make a choice "Should i stay away and eat La Teezan (Which is a potential 3.5k combo) & Brio (Which does 1.5k on clean hit) and lose or go in and put myself in CON/Sandwich position which could possible cost me the whole match". However all of this is simply my opinion, im very interested in hearing what others believe and why.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Michiru

[Afro-Demon]

La Tennerezza I say will probably vastly improve Carl's neutral once people get used to it. It's what Ada was missing before, a fast ground poke.

Before in CNO neutral our realistic Ada options were pretty stuck to 6D (pressure/poke), fuoco (pressure/corner push), 8D/brio (AA), 4D (stops enemy approach), and volante (...not even really that useful for anything except presence). 4D got no respect from anyone with a little match up experience, so that's out. Volante has relatively little to no block stun, so unless you were close in already, it pretty much just reset to neutral. Fuoco and 6D everyone can react to VISUALLY, so they are pretty much there to force the opponent to jump over rather than be good pokes. 8D is good at catching airdash spammers and chicken blockers in the corner, but that's about it. And brio is our godsend massive air poke.

There is nothing here that would make me get jumpy. The only real threat in this fast paced fighting game of these is brio, so I'll just sit on my ass to avoid brio and avoid/react to everything else. Every character has better control of match flow than carl (except tager) in CNO because they can just wait for everything. See 6D/fuoco? Just react and jump it. See nirvana just sitting there active? Probably waiting to AA me with brio, better just wait to jump in and have him waste it on another useless move. Tennerezza removes all that. It's a threat. It's faster than volante, has as much stun as 6D, has vacuum, and has slightly more reach than 6D from what I can tell. People will get jumpy from that, because that will lead to carl pressure, and people getting jumpy means brio is going to hit them A LOT more. Carl lost quite a bit of damage this time, but that's ok. I always felt silly gaining 50+ heat a combo to always super or save for a CA. His neutral has always been a major problem, and now it's finally going a step in the right direction. My only real biff with CP Carl so far is people saying Ada meter is much weaker overall this time, but only when I get the game myself will I judge, so I won't worry about it for now.

Also before anyone bothers, our Carl options in CNO are just lol terrible. 5C, 6A, cantabile, dash-a-gretto, IAD. Only viable one is dash-a-gretto, and it doesn't do much except make them hold back. The rest are what we do AFTER an Ada move connects or to cover Ada so she doesn't eat 5C>5D from every Rags in existence.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Would you guys rather have CP Carl or CT Carl.

We've been through this.

Nobody wants CT Carl.

[Afro-Demon]

Hey anyone mind translating some of the shenanigans in this video. I don't know moonspeak, and those 2C>CT fuoco>6C(full) unblockables look interesting, but I swear Rags ID or forward roll would beat that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCEuTJhEG8g&list=UUJC5rXAfIrTMuoBY3qJjBdA&index=7

[Michiru]

La Tennerezza I say will probably vastly improve Carl's neutral once people get used to it. It's what Ada was missing before, a fast ground poke.

Before in CNO neutral our realistic Ada options were pretty stuck to 6D (pressure/poke), fuoco (pressure/corner push), 8D/brio (AA), 4D (stops enemy approach), and volante (...not even really that useful for anything except presence). 4D got no respect from anyone with a little match up experience, so that's out. Volante has relatively little to no block stun, so unless you were close in already, it pretty much just reset to neutral. Fuoco and 6D everyone can react to VISUALLY, so they are pretty much there to force the opponent to jump over rather than be good pokes. 8D is good at catching airdash spammers and chicken blockers in the corner, but that's about it. And brio is our godsend massive air poke.

There is nothing here that would make me get jumpy. The only real threat in this fast paced fighting game of these is brio, so I'll just sit on my ass to avoid brio and avoid/react to everything else. Every character has better control of match flow than carl (except tager) in CNO because they can just wait for everything. See 6D/fuoco? Just react and jump it. See nirvana just sitting there active? Probably waiting to AA me with brio, better just wait to jump in and have him waste it on another useless move. Tennerezza removes all that. It's a threat. It's faster than volante, has as much stun as 6D, has vacuum, and has slightly more reach than 6D from what I can tell. People will get jumpy from that, because that will lead to carl pressure, and people getting jumpy means brio is going to hit them A LOT more. Carl lost quite a bit of damage this time, but that's ok. I always felt silly gaining 50+ heat a combo to always super or save for a CA. His neutral has always been a major problem, and now it's finally going a step in the right direction. My only real biff with CP Carl so far is people saying Ada meter is much weaker overall this time, but only when I get the game myself will I judge, so I won't worry about it for now.

Also before anyone bothers, our Carl options in CNO are just lol terrible. 5C, 6A, cantabile, dash-a-gretto, IAD. Only viable one is dash-a-gretto, and it doesn't do much except make them hold back. The rest are what we do AFTER an Ada move connects or to cover Ada so she doesn't eat 5C>5D from every Rags in existence.

I am overjoyed that someone else sees things in the same light. As for damage I have been meaning to post this link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUj59wVzuY#t=5m45s

The reset combo that Carl did in this video was dropped and he was able to reach 4.7k from a dropped combo. While he did use his CT, I believe and this is solely my opinion. People are using crush triggers not to optimize their combo damage, but to lead into a better combo route. For instance let us take Carl. If Carl connects his CT it allows him to go into his fully charged 6c, which leads into Brio combos Midscreen. So in a sense it’s not that adding CT will do a lot of extra damage into combos due to proration that allow combos to do damage; it is the combo route.

Looking back at the link that I posted you can see that Anima> fully charged 6c combo into each other. Therefore the addition of CT was not necessary for this combo to work. Does Crush trigger add additional... Yes it does does it "Increase the overall damage of Carls combos" no it does not. Crush Trigger does not add additional damage if you look at the proration values you can see that it has a P2 of 100. Which means you can do this attack without adding to the proration or hindering it. It also does not have any bonus prorations values.

So to say that we need CT to get our damage,, I kinda would have to disagree with. It does however open different and optimal combo routes. It has already been established that our of our Ada starters the one combo route that leads into the most dmg would be the 4D combo route. Since 4D can combo into charged 6c, we can go into our Brio combo route midscreen. It is always good to add Brio into combos because it has a 120% bounus proration. Afterwards it seems easier to go into Volante which seems ok since they buffed volantes damage and 2D's P2 was nerfed so it seems a overall waste to use it instead.

Getting back to my original idea, I believe that had Carl have not used that CT i believe the overall damage from that combo would have been ~4.7k-5k. With the CT I would assume it would be near the ~5k-5.7k which is almost 6k. However once again, this is simply what I believe and it is too close to call with the game not being at our disposal. Although comparing theories with everyone is very fascinating and enjoyable.

Hey anyone mind translating some of the shenanigans in this video. I don't know moonspeak, and those 2C>CT fuoco>6C(full) unblockables look interesting, but I swear Rags ID or forward roll would beat that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCEuTJhEG8g&list=UUJC5rXAfIrTMuoBY3qJjBdA&index=7

Rolling would actually cause the person to get hit. Depending on how good the timing is done, Ada will catch that roll. If the timing is off, then one could roll. However it will not be far enough to pass Carl or get them out of the corner. Simultaneously because they rolled they are at a slight disadvantage, and the fuacco would become a meaty. Either they take the damage or block and eat the UB setup. However I do believe ID would wreck this setup hard. At the same time you could release the 6c once the enemy tech causing their DP to whiff you, however they will hit Ada and with heat they could rapid. I use a setup very similar to this. If you allow the 6c to charge you are at a disadvantage because Ada is slowly moving you towards the enemy. Do to inferno dividers amazing active frames; she will ultimately push you into it. However the only reason you are getting hit is because when you are charging the 6c it extends Carls hurtbox making it easier for ID to hit Carl while charging. Therefore if you were to just stand there the DP would whiff you and hit Ada.

It is still a very good OS bait, if they do DP they need to RC and they are already at a disadvantage because you (Carl) are just standing there waiting. At the same time if they do not DP; because you did a 6c whiff you could get a little mixup going. An old Carl setup that involves 6D>6c whiff>2a is very similar to the fucco 6c one you see now. It is a very good tool, similar to an empty jump low attack. This would be a empty overhead>low.

So yes this UB setup does have its ups and downs,, however all of Carls UB setups outside of his jb/3d reset all have flaws. That does not mean it is any less valuable, in my opinion.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Michiru

[Psykotik]

I am overjoyed that someone else sees things in the same light. As for damage I have been meaning to post this link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUj59wVzuY#t=5m45s

The reset combo that Carl did in this video was dropped and he was able to reach 4.7k from a dropped combo. While he did use his CT, I believe and this is solely my opinion. People are using crush triggers not to optimize their combo damage, but to lead into a better combo route. For instance let us take Carl. If Carl connects his CT it allows him to go into his fully charged 6c, which leads into Brio combos Midscreen. So in a sense it’s not that adding CT will do a lot of extra damage into combos due to proration that allow combos to do damage; it is the combo route.

Looking back at the link that I posted you can see that Anima> fully charged 6c combo into each other. Therefore the addition of CT was not necessary for this combo to work. Does Crush trigger add additional... Yes it does does it "Increase the overall damage of Carls combos" no it does not. Crush Trigger does not add additional damage if you look at the proration values you can see that it has a P2 of 100. Which means you can do this attack without adding to the proration or hindering it. It also does not have any bonus prorations values.

So to say that we need CT to get our damage,, I kinda would have to disagree with. It does however open different and optimal combo routes. It has already been established that our of our Ada starters the one combo route that leads into the most dmg would be the 4D combo route. Since 4D can combo into charged 6c, we can go into our Brio combo route midscreen. It is always good to add Brio into combos because it has a 120% bounus proration. Afterwards it seems easier to go into Volante which seems ok since they buffed volantes damage and 2D's P2 was nerfed so it seems a overall waste to use it instead.

Getting back to my original idea, I believe that had Carl have not used that CT i believe the overall damage from that combo would have been ~4.7k-5k. With the CT I would assume it would be near the ~5k-5.7k which is almost 6k. However once again, this is simply what I believe and it is too close to call with the game not being at our disposal. Although comparing theories with everyone is very fascinating and enjoyable.

Rolling would actually cause the person to get hit. Depending on how good the timing is done, Ada will catch that roll. If the timing is off, then one could roll. However it will not be far enough to pass Carl or get them out of the corner. Simultaneously because they rolled they are at a slight disadvantage, and the fuacco would become a meaty. Either they take the damage or block and eat the UB setup. However I do believe ID would wreck this setup hard. At the same time you could release the 6c once the enemy tech causing their DP to whiff you, however they will hit Ada and with heat they could rapid. I use a setup very similar to this. If you allow the 6c to charge you are at a disadvantage because Ada is slowly moving you towards the enemy. Do to inferno dividers amazing active frames; she will ultimately push you into it. However the only reason you are getting hit is because when you are charging the 6c it extends Carls hurtbox making it easier for ID to hit Carl while charging. Therefore if you were to just stand there the DP would whiff you and hit Ada.

It is still a very good OS bait, if they do DP they need to RC and they are already at a disadvantage because you (Carl) are just standing there waiting. At the same time if they do not DP; because you did a 6c whiff you could get a little mixup going. An old Carl setup that involves 6D>6c whiff>2a is very similar to the fucco 6c one you see now. It is a very good tool, similar to an empty jump low attack. This would be a empty overhead>low.

So yes this UB setup does have its ups and downs,, however all of Carls UB setups outside of his jb/3d reset all have flaws. That does not mean it is any less valuable, in my opinion.

I disagree with CT not being required for optimal combos. The bolded part is basically why it leads to higher damage; you're adding free damage without prorating the damage values (and assuming the hitsun calculation still based on damage proration in CP, hitstun proration may also be unaffected by CT).

I do wonder about the 6C fuoco setup though. Even though it'll probably catch rolls, it looks like a lot of reversals can beat it clean. IMO, it's a bit flimsy-looking but we won't really know its effectiveness until it's applied in an actual match situation.

Also, Brio doesn't have 120% bonus proration.

It is still a very good OS bait

wut

Edited January 31, 2013 by Psykotik

[Afro-Demon]

I personally think we'll be using our CTs quite a bit for our combos and most likely saving supers to finish off a round rather than every combo we do ever. It's not terribly hard to get 25% heat, and even mid screen potential for CTs are 5.5k, even from reset. (2.2k mediocre sandwich BnB > reset > 5.5 CT combo)x2 = gg. That's 50 heat for two combos per round, that's less than what we use in CSEX from what I recall, so that means even more heat for more CAs.

The fuoco setup I was mostly concerned about rags ID. Carl's short, and he's a good distance away from the the opponents wake up. Most dps would whiff with the exception of divider, and that's because of its insane range. I think it has good potential for a reliable setup against most characters, especially if we get someone as springy as Tao in there, as much as I want to dream that we could get her there.

[Michiru]

I disagree with CT not being required for optimal combos. The bolded part is basically why it leads to higher damage; you're adding free damage without prorating the damage values (and assuming the hitsun calculation still based on damage proration in CP, hitstun proration may also be unaffected by CT).

What I am saying is that because the move does not change proration meaning that the only thing it adds to a combo is the raw damage that it does. Which is about 500~600 damage per combo. While it is good to do, I do not believe it is necessary.

I do wonder about the 6C fuoco setup though. Even though it'll probably catch rolls, it looks like a lot of reversals can beat it clean. IMO, it's a bit flimsy-looking but we won't really know its effectiveness until it's applied in an actual match situation.

Also, Brio doesn't have 120% bonus proration.

wut

Afro is right... Every other DP will whiff Carl. However what I was trying to say is that even though the DP will whiff on Carl it will still hit Ada. All they need to do is hit something. When Ada is hit because of how far she reaches her arm out during fuacco the enemy can rapid cancel. Even if they choose not to rapid cancel Carls 6c will probably still miss because Ada is not pushing him forward with fuacco anymore. But yes,, the only DP that has a chance of hitting Carl at that range is Inferno Divider.

Brio's bonus proration was removed O.O this is news to me. Obviously I need to check up on my frame data more.

Lastly when I was referring to a OS bait, I should have put OS/Bait. This setup with fucco stops several options which are: Tech Rolls, delay neutral tech, Neutral tech into buttons, wake-up Dp, wake up block, and quick get up into anything. There are only two options that are full proof against this which are: wake up counter assault (50 heat) and wake up Dp rapid cancel (50 heat). The reason why I called it a OS bait is because you can bait both of the only 2 options they have and still have pressure if they do not do them. Fuacco/6C whiff > 2a is a very powerful tool.

Outside of character specific tools like Tao's Cat crawl and Haku-mens D, universal options are out of the question. Which if my memory serves me properly, is what you would call an option select. Stopping two things simultaneously while at the same time being completely safe. Which is what Carl is doing.

Edit:

I forgot to mention that yes added a CT to Carls combos can only be beneficial that I agree with completely. However it being the foundation of our bnb I do not think is true. The combo form that anima grab was

Anima>fully charged 6c> CT>5c>Brio>Jb>Jb>Jc>volante>5c>jb (Dropped at this point because the j2c whiffed damage was 4.7k)

We can assume the combo he was going for was jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>8D>6a>Jb>Jb>Jc

which would probably put the damage somewhere near 5.6k. If we were to remove the CT this combo would still be possible. However the damage would be less around 500-600 damage less. Which in turn would place Carls max damage from that setup 5k. CT is needed from a JB/3D Ub setup to preform max damage because we need it in order to open up our combo route to a fully charged 6c. However from a Anima/4D starter I do not believe that CT should be used because the combo route is already open for us to use CT. Will it come in handy for those random times when we are attempting to hit confirm a good clean 5c/5B starter to open the combo route to charged 6c Brio combos. But if that route is already open then adding a CT is not proper meter management. I am hoping that you understand what I am saying now. If this clears up my point of view, if not please say something I will do my best to reword it.

On a different note proration and hitstun decay both go from how long a combo is being done based off of what starter you used. I believe that was mentioned and stated somewhere before in the general thread. It might have also been posted here as well. I do not remember specifically. However P1 and P2 values are nothing but damage controllers in the next installment. The combo length is determined by your starter

Example: Ragna 5a starter gives him 2seconds on the clock of combo time. As the timer starts the closer it gets to 2 seconds the hit stun your attacks have decrease until it is almost non-existent.

Second Edit:

An example of what I am referring to is lets say you get this starter

5c>cantabile>volante

Because 5c is such a good starter it would be a waste to not try and get as much damage as you can. Unfortunatley our strongest combo route is fully charged 6C> 5c> Brio. Even though 5c is a fantastic starter you cannot truly optimize because the only combo route you can go is not your most optimal one. So in a situation such as this adding CT is completely logical and should be done. So the combo would look like this.

5c>cantabile>volante>CT>La tennereza>fully charged 6c>5c>Brio>jb>jb>jc>6D>5c>Jb>J2c>Jb>Jb>Jc>8D>(6a>Jb>Jb>Jc) or 3c>Fermata which has a minimum of 1.2k now

However in a combo from a 4D starter it would look like this

4D>Fully charged 6C>5c>Brio>Jb>Jb>Jc>Volante>5c>Jb>J2c>Jb>Jb>Jc>8D

In this combo the CT no longer serves a purpose, Can you still do it for a little bit of extra free damage? Yes. Is it wise? No.

It is not good meter management to use CT from a starter that automatically trails into our strongest combo route... it no longer serves a purpose and will only add a simple 500~600 damage to a combo. CT are 25% heat moves, they are not gold burst

Edited January 31, 2013 by Michiru