[CP] Carl Clover Gameplay Discussion (Changelog in OP)

[Psykotik]

You shouldn't be doing random rolls in neutral against a grounded Hazama (or almost anybody for that matter) in the first place :X

Edited September 24, 2013 by Psykotik

[NecroTheReaper]

Exactly, its a noob mistake lol. INFORM THE CARLS!

[sinder]

i'm curious on how you're going to go about this... good luck

(yeah i should be posting advice but there's too much info to know about this guy )

I would definitely stress keeping offensive momentum though, as this is where most Carl players fail

(given the Ada meter change in CP, it is going to be even more difficult to explain for newbies because even I'm still wondering how we can keep the opponent under enough pressure to open them and then have enough ada meter to combo)

Wise Words from Sinder===> This is just for general direction, because as I said before there is too much for him.......

Overall

Talk about keeping the opponent locked down in CON, why it's important to get them in that position, how to minimize gaps in pressure (same as above with momentum)

Defense: Remember that back dashes exist block block block. Bursting may be counter productive in a majority of MU's (Rachel, Arakune, are big ones)

Neutral game plan: Ada positioning is always important in this aspect of the match, stress the importance of not using fuoco in at the start of the MU (as stated above, I noticed that a lot of new Carl players use this move too much in neutral, and as already stated is better suited as an option for oki). People aren't just using 4D just cause it exists, etc

Air game

8D (the clap) and Brio control the air. brio shouldn't be underused as it is his best option for catching a lot of characters and it's quickness can lead to a CH where Carl actually has an advantage

46D is a new great tool to pull in characters, and make new crossups (pull-in effect is where this move shines though

yeah, good luck psyk. Since Relius is here I highly doubt that people are going to bother learning Carl from scratch, and these standards are going to scare them off. But this is a great resource that I wish I had when starting with Carl, as the BBCT demonstration was god awful (yeah, just learn this trap that 90% of the cast can't escape to win matches and you know Carl!) Only to CLEARLY have it taken out in CS where Carl became a free-style character and we all had to start all over

will definitely help when CP comes though, as this is probably a GOOD time to learn him since Carl vets will need to learn a few new things as well

Edited September 24, 2013 by sinder

[Raiza57]

(given the Ada meter change in CP, it is going to be even more difficult to explain for newbies because even I'm still wondering how we can keep the opponent under enough pressure to open them and then have enough ada meter to combo)

.......and these standards are going to scare them off.

Shiro said stop giving out misinformation sinder... Lol jk

"Just gonna clarify on a few things, Ada's meter is actually better she starts recovering her hp way faster, about 10frames faster making it 110 frame cooldown and 19 frame cooldown in OD, and her moves take up the same amount of HP from her. The only issue is that her attack cost multiplier is higher so spamming 6D x5 will take away a lot more energy. But thats not something that a carl player, with common sense, should even be doing; since you cant now alternate between La tene, 6d, fucco, and Anima and pressure tools you have no need to be using the same attack over and over again. Also we are one of the few characters who can dish out a consistent 5k with 0heat off 4D/Anima crossups. Carl is a much better character now than he has ever been imo, so quit scaring people off. Not to mention that 8D is our best ender that leads into 6D oki. Literally Ada is the exact same except she recovers her HP faster =/ Same cost multiplyer has never been an issue for me because I just dont do the same attacks over and over again. But thats just me so that being added doesnt effect me. However that is my opinion. Other than that its straight buffs across the board."

[Psykotik]

That's not how the cost multiplier works Akira. The cost multiplier applies to all of Ada's moves, not just the one particular move that has the multiplier. And I'd think people would be more likely deterred by Carl's difficulty as opposed to his tier position, which is still very, very respectable. Aside from that, you're right about everything else... although I'd like to think that Ada got better with the addition of Tenerezza

Thanks for your input everyone. I thought about it a bit and decided that I should probably make separate videos for each aspect of Carl's game (offense, defense, and neutral) as opposed to making one giant video. It's more presentable imo and is more accessible for beginners in that they will know to look up X video to learn about Y concept since said concepts will

be naturally categorized. It'll also allow me to sneak in more details that would otherwise make a single video too cluttered. I hope to receive more of your opinions in the future.

Here's to this project (hopefully) succeeding and the eventual rise of the Carl army

:CA::CA:

Edited September 25, 2013 by Psykotik

[sinder]

tell "shiro" that you're gonna have to tie Ada defense with that move cool down period

so yeah' I'm not scaring people away, it's the truth!!!!!!!!

Better they learn the downsides first, as you need to find ways around them especially with caruru. And lol Ada meter is ass, why you justifying it

but PM the rest because I don't want there to be clutter

~non-theory POV Sinder <3

[Psykotik]

Nah, you can debate this here if you want since it's Carl-related. Hell, we could even get in an extra voice or two and maybe we'll all learn something else from this.

Make sure y'all play nice though~

I'm serious about this. I would love to see constructive discussion but things better not get out of hand.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Psykotik

[Raiza57]

That's not how the cost multiplier works Akira. The cost multiplier applies to all of Ada's moves, not just the one particular move that has the multiplier. And I'd think people would be more likely deterred by Carl's difficulty as opposed to his tier position, which is still very, very respectable. Aside from that, you're right about everything else... although I'd like to think that Ada got better with the addition of Tenerezza

To Sinder as well

"Oh, your right. I just re-read the frame data and yea it is applied to all moves. Well that can be taken as a buff and nerf so overall it is a rework. Long combos will deplete her health fast but her health does recover faster. Couple that with Carls ability to preform longer more practical solo combos in the corner, especially with CT added into the game, which makes for this change to not be that bad. I believe that took this approach to force us to not waste and time or moves. Like its their way of saying "You dont get to have Over Powered lockdown like Relius, because your bitch aint got the the HP for it."

So I can see this change effecting our pressure game in a negative way... However on the other hand it also affects our Neutral game in a positive way, since the cost multiplyer is only 10% which is way less that previously, spamming the fuck outta the same attack at neutral Brio Tenerez wont be as costly compared to all the other versions. So our pressure game may have suffered, not really tho, and our neutral game may have gotten buffed, not really tho, but I dont believe either changes are going to really effect us that much. Probably during clutch time yea, but in a regular fight.. I dont see it really hurting or helping to much. But yea it is good for people to know.

An Ada meter is not ass, I would have to disagree wholeheartedly. Her meter turns me on way more in this version of the game, not because it got better or worse, but because Carl now has time consuming solo combos. Which can actually prove to be very beneficial to helping Ada. For instance, im sure you all know of the 2D oki shown in the "You cant stop the beat" combo video. The thing about that Oki, is that in this version of the game Ada will die =/ Each time you do that oki setup Ada losses like 1/5 of her health due to your need for her she will die, albeit the reset does like 2.5k each time and the enemy will die first, its just the fact that if you wish to do it you must be prepared to lose overall Ada meter. Making that Oki good yes, but overall not very effective for niggas who can block. However in the next version, Carl can preform the exact same setup and with each succesfull reset Ada CAN gain about 1/5 of her health. Which means in the event that they block correctly, you dont automatically lose Ada meter. Her health will still be at a decent amount for you do mixup.

Essentially in EX it goes (Reset>combo>oki>reset)x5or6 but it can only be done so many times till Ada dies, in the next version because of how much time passes during our solo combos, we can do (Reset>solo-combo>oki>reset)xN and Ada will always be able to recover a large portion of meter to start again. I hope this makes sense to everyone else. Not sure if my analogy was clear enough"

Edited September 25, 2013 by Raiza57

[NecroTheReaper]

That was alot of words... and just curious, since I was never effecient at it, is allecan still required for 5k+ combos? I mean like the volante allecan and 4D stuff, cuz I couldn't ever pull it off online... granted I guess I shouldn't worry about overall damage as much as efficient damage.

[Psykotik]

Akira: Nirvana's non-OD recovery is still technically the same in CP as CSEX (16 points per frame). Although you make a very valid point regarding Carl's meter recovery solo combos, you have to keep in mind that those will only help meter management if you can actually get that first hit on them; if you drained meter on the neutral game, still haven't caught your opponent and have low doll meter, you're pretty much SOL at this point.

Also, you should learn what "analogy" means before using it in conversation.

That was alot of words... and just curious, since I was never effecient at it, is allecan still required for 5k+ combos? I mean like the volante allecan and 4D stuff, cuz I couldn't ever pull it off online... granted I guess I shouldn't worry about overall damage as much as efficient damage.

That route's pretty much obsolete at this point. 5C, Brio, sj.B, dj.B, j.C, Volante seems to be an optimized route.

[Pen_Ninja]

That route's pretty much obsolete at this point. 5C, Brio, sj.B, dj.B, j.C, Volante seems to be an optimized route.

This is in CP right? I could never seem to get more damage from this started then I could with my normal 5C, Volante, Allecan, 5C, j.C, 4D starter combos in EX. I'd get about 4.2k meterless mid screen with volante and 4D but only ~3.9k with 5C, Brio j.B, j.B, j.C, Volante...

In terms of Ada HP I feel like from what I've seen, we have enough to work with to effectively push people to the corner from just about anywhere. At which point you should still have some meter to get a good hit in, then you just need to decide whether to spend more Ada meter to get a more damaging combo or whether to do the longer solo combos we have now to help build Ada meter back. The latter then gives you more meter to get the next mixup with.

[Raiza57]

Akira: Nirvana's non-OD recovery is still technically the same in CP as CSEX (16 points per frame). Although you make a very valid point regarding Carl's meter recovery solo combos, you have to keep in mind that those will only help meter management if you can actually get that first hit on them; if you drained meter on the neutral game, still haven't caught your opponent and have low doll meter, you're pretty much SOL at this point.

Also, you should learn what "analogy" means before using it in conversation.

Yea, I know the amount of HP she recovers per frame is the exact same. Its the cooldown which is 10frames faster than extend which is what I said. Also none of that is why we get her HP back, its the long solo combos which I could have sworn I mentioned twice.

Also

Analogy: A comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

I compared the difference of EX 2D oki reset and CP's 2D oki reset: "(Reset>combo>oki>reset)x5or6" and "(Reset>solo-combo>oki>reset)xN"

Also, you should learn what "analogy" means before using it in conversation.

Things like this, is why I get hostile during conversations and ultimately banned =/ And then Im the one who takes the blame. Try not to be so rude as I am doing my best not to get upset. Cause my parents aint raise no bitch, get smart with me I get hostile.... But im trying.

[Psykotik]

This is in CP right? I could never seem to get more damage from this started then I could with my normal 5C, Volante, Allecan, 5C, j.C, 4D starter combos in EX. I'd get about 4.2k meterless mid screen with volante and 4D but only ~3.9k with 5C, Brio j.B, j.B, j.C, Volante...

In terms of Ada HP I feel like from what I've seen, we have enough to work with to effectively push people to the corner from just about anywhere. At which point you should still have some meter to get a good hit in, then you just need to decide whether to spend more Ada meter to get a more damaging combo or whether to do the longer solo combos we have now to help build Ada meter back. The latter then gives you more meter to get the next mixup with.

Yup, that's for CP, should've clarified, my bad.

[sinder]

i just read the first post

and if fermatta really connects with j.2C i will shriek in excitement

[Raiza57]

What thee fuck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b30fwFjwzn0#t=41m40s

[Psykotik]

It's probably a really weird volante/brio misinput

[Raiza57]

It's probably a really weird volante/brio misinput

Did you even look at what I posted. SHE BLOCKED FERMATA IN THE AIR!!!!!!! Who cares if it were an accident or not... That is irrelevant to that matter... When I automatically assume the japs are pretty free anyway.

[NecroTheReaper]

Honestly, if it is air blockable now, while it is a nerf, I don't think its a very noticeable nerf. Fermata's air UB property was really only useful against tager wasnt it? I dunno, but this just doesn't really bother me that much °¬° maybe someone more ecperienced will tell me what all it could affect

[Psykotik]

Did you even look at what I posted. SHE BLOCKED FERMATA IN THE AIR!!!!!!! Who cares if it were an accident or not... That is irrelevant to that matter... When I automatically assume the japs are pretty free anyway.

Ok, I see your point now. In any case, it's not that big of a deal since the AUB property couldn't really be put to use against anybody except Tager anyways, calm down lol.

[Raiza57]

Ok, I see your point now. In any case, it's not that big of a deal since the AUB property couldn't really be put to use against anybody except Tager anyways, calm down lol.

But I had resets that I used with those... It is a big of a deal.

[Psykotik]

Well, that's unfortunate... but at least you'll have new resets to work with

Won't lie though, I'll miss the Tager UB setup, that shit's hilarious lol.

[sinder]

But I had resets that I used with those... It is a big of a deal.

please post this reset that you think makes this big of a deal because 50 meter for a fermatta reset which can lead to 7k is something i would definitely like to know before CP

and i dont mean jab jab jab fermatta

[The Noble Clap]

and i dont mean jab jab jab fermatta

Dangit.

[Raiza57]

please post this reset that you think makes this big of a deal because 50 meter for a fermatta reset which can lead to 7k is something i would definitely like to know before CP

and i dont mean jab jab jab fermatta

W-O-C-N

5b>5c>cantabile>2D>6c(Charged)>j2c>allegreto>brio>5c>jb>j2c>jc>volante>jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>8D>j2c>allegreto>8D>6a/j2c>(Delay)fermatta/reset

[Pen_Ninja]

I feel like that'd be avoidable with forward air tech into air dash...?

On that note though. I do something very similar where I delay the last 8D and if you do your j.2C allegretto late enough, people tend to tech into 8D and forget to barrier immediately.