[CP] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

[Errol]

Just a tidbit of info, trying to combo off a VS starter would be the same as comboing off a CA or green burst, so pretty much all combos are restricted to A>B>C>done. Even my main Relius cant do a meaningful combo off a CA unlike Ex. It'd go CA>2D>combo drops. So very doubtful that you can do that combo.

It just depends on untech time. Lots of staples aren't designed to be that lenient so that you can't do them off jab starters let alone CAs.

Tager's 3c has like infinite untech time. Same with Rachel's 3c and BBL. Some things won't drop unless youre at the instant tech point. something after 3c > ac> will probably work, but a string afterthat, maybe not.

[mAc Chaos]

hakumen is the character that has lost the whole being disadvantaged against long range characters. He's one of Rachel's bad matchups.

Not sure that Tager has any 3-7 matchups. Sledge is definitely classic tager. Straight RPS, like everything else he does.

Nah, he still struggles against them. It's just not Tager tier.

I mean, all the stuff that he has now against them, he had more of in EX.

[TagerTime]

Grandia is the highest ranked Tager in japan at 17th Dan and is ranked 24th place in the overall Nation wide rankings.

With all this talk of Tager matchups its good to take a look at Grandia fight history. It gives a quick look at what matchups are easier or harder for Tager.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsp.bbcp.ac%2Fmember_profile_view.php%3Fuser_id%3D2637&sandbox=1

See his great performance in the tournament i just posted in the video thread http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15330-CP-Iron-Tager-Video-Thread&p=1610426&viewfull=1#post1610426

Quick look at Grandia's stats

Total matches = 5185

Total wins = 3726 wins

Total winning percentage = 71%

Longest winning streak = 81 matches in a row

Total Match history http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsp.bbcp.ac%2Fmember_record_battle_view.php%3Fuser_id%3D2637%26charactor%3Dtg

• vs Makoto: 134 wins 148 races (91%)
  
  
• vs Barrett: 87 wins in 96 races (91%)
  
  
• vs Amane: 181 wins 204 races (89%)
  
  
• vs Noel: 147 wins 171 races (86%)
  
  
• vs Vu~aruken Hein: 140 wins 169 races (83%)
  
  
• vs Azrael: 267 wins 323 races (83%)
  
  
• vs Laguna: 394 wins 495 races (80%)
  
  
• vs Hazama: 196 wins 246 races (80%)
  
  
• vs Platinum: 41 wins 52 races (79%)
  
  
• vs Izayoi: 49 wins in 63 races (78%)
  
  
• vs Jin: 271 wins 357 races (76%)
  
  
• vs Teiga: 131 wins 173 races (76%)
  
  
• vs Bang: 81 wins in 111 races (73%)
  
  
• vs Hakumen: 202 wins 293 races (69%)
  
  
• vs Reriusu: 74 wins in 111 races (67%)
  
  
• vs lychee: 196 wins 293 races (67%)
  
  
• vs New: 155 wins 234 races (66%)
  
  
• vs Carl: 278 wins 431 races (65%)
  
  
• vs Tsubaki: 72 wins in 110 races (65%)
  
  
• vs Arachne: 82 wins in 129 races (64%)
  
  
• vs Mu: 79 wins in 126 races (63%)
  
  
• vs Rachel: 99 wins in 159 races (62%)
  
  
• vs Taokaka: 152 wins 289 races (53%)
  
  

I re-ordered the list from highest to lowest percent

Edited March 7, 2014 by TagerTime

[mAc Chaos]

I'm amused by the fact that he loses to Tager more than Ragna.

[Justice7541]

Who is Vu-Aruken Hein lol

[TagerTime]

Who is Vu-Aruken Hein lol

I just copied the entire list from google translate. It was too funny to change it to Valkenhayn.

[Osuna]

Tager's 3c has like infinite untech time. Same with Rachel's 3c and BBL. Some things won't drop unless youre at the instant tech point. something after 3c > ac> will probably work, but a string afterthat, maybe not.

Not quite true actually. Unless the untech time gets buffed, the VS nerf should stop you from doing 3C 623C whiff 6B. In my head I went straight for 5C because I couldn't think of anything else fast enough that could be comboed from. Almost everything seems to stop working if you subtract 4 frames or stun from every move. Go figure.

[TagerTime]

Not quite true actually. Unless the untech time gets buffed, the VS nerf should stop you from doing 3C 623C whiff 6B. In my head I went straight for 5C because I couldn't think of anything else fast enough that could be comboed from. Almost everything seems to stop working if you subtract 4 frames or stun from every move. Go figure.

You can also do 3C>ACwhiff>j.C>GP

[Osuna]

You can also do 3C>ACwhiff>j.C>GP

GP is pretty beefy, I wonder if it does more damage in exchange for the lost magnetism.

[NumeroGaijin]

I like how the videos of 1.1 Tager show him winning. He won against a Mu of all characters. I think they are seriously +playing fradulent on purpose to make our nerfed character seem good. They always do this. Make him seem good for the first few weeks then a month later Tager goes to trash tier again. We are not fooed Mori.

[Darlos9D]

I like how the videos of 1.1 Tager show him winning. He won against a Mu of all characters. I think they are seriously +playing fradulent on purpose to make our nerfed character seem good. They always do this. Make him seem good for the first few weeks then a month later Tager goes to trash tier again. We are not fooed Mori.

 

Well aside from this 5A stuff, he's pretty much the same as before. So it's not like his tactics and all the other threats he had previously aren't there.

 

From what little match footage I've seen so far, I'm guessing nobodies really figured out optimal ways to followup the new 5A starter. Even if "optimal" is shit, I'm seeing plenty of opponents teching out of combos because the Tager doesn't know where to end it.

[TagerTime]

Tager is doing fine so far. The 5A nerf turns out to not be that big of a deal. Theres been quite a few cp tager 1.1 match videos posted and he wins most of them. Our damage off of 5A only went down by ~1k and the faster recovery on 2D looks realy nice and will definatley come in handy.

 

These are the combos ive seen used so far. Instead of 5A>5b>3C they are using 5A>2B>3C because it does more damage.

 

5A>3C>Spark

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6A>2C>GF 1929

5A>5B>JA>JC>GP 1968

5A>2B>5B>3C>Asledge>Hammer 2000

 

Now since regular 5A>3C work these two should still work since -4 penalty only starts at the second hit

 

5A>JA>JB>JC>GP 2035

5A>JA>JC>JD>GP 2187

 

Now from doing counter assault rapid cancel combos on rachel (emergecy tech off but ground tech on) these combos work

 

3C>AC WHIFF>JC>GP

3C>AC WHIFF>5C>6A>DSpark>GP

3C>AC WHIFF>6B>j2C>GF

3C>AC WHIFF>5C/6B>Asledge>Hammer

3C>AC WHIFF>6B>2C>AC>DSpark>GP

 

By adding eaither 5A or 5A>5b/2b at the front i think the full combos should still work in 1.1

 

5A>5B>3C>AC WHIFF>JC>GP 2064

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6B>j2C>GF 2002

5A>5B>3C>AC WHIFF>5C>6A>DSpark>GP 2593

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6B>2C>AC>DSpark>GP 3057

5A>5B>3C>AC WHIFF>6A>2C>AC>DSpark>MTW>TB 4440

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6B>2C>AC>DSpark>MTW>TB 4608

 

So all together these are the combos that i think will work for 1.1 plus the ones confirmed to work already

 

Ground to air

5A>5B>JA>JC>GP 1968

5A>JA>JB>JC>GP 2035

5A>JA>JC>JD>GP 2187

 

Sledge Hammer

5A>2B>5B>3C>Asledge>Hammer 2000

5A>5B>3C>AC WHIFF>5C/6B>Asledge>Hammer 2141/2126

 

Magged

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6A>2C>GF 1929

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6B>j2C>GF 2002

5A>5B>3C>AC WHIFF>JC>GP 2064

 

Spark

5A>3C>Spark

5A>5B>3C>AC WHIFF>5C>6A>DSpark>GP 2593

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6B>2C>AC>DSpark>GP 3057

 

Heat

5A>5B>3C>AC WHIFF>6A>2C>AC>DSpark>MTW>TB 4440

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6B>2C>AC>DSpark>MTW>TB 4608

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6B>2C>AC>DSpark>OD>MTW>TB>GF 5138

[crimsonstardust]

So I have a question using 5C as a starter for block strings and what not. I have a tendency to gattling into 5D after 5C on hit or block, and I feel like that can't be all Tagar can do to end a block string with (and on hit I know I'm kinda robbing myself some positioning and damage if I use 5D on hit, working to fix that), so what do you guys suggest for keeping Tager safe or being able to put pressure on my opponent of off 5C? 

[Brice]

There is actually only one move that can make 5C into anything else airtight and that's 4D. Makes the string end without any mixup opportunity.

 

If they are in range or magnetised you can always try and 6A after a 5C to continue pressure and vacuum them a bit when they block the move. 6A has a good potential mixup in it, since you can delay 360 for a grab attempt, go into 3C for a low, 6B/6C for a (rather slow) overhead, and if it happens to hit, can hitconfirm into easy combo for good damage. But as Tager isn't really good at making safe pressure overall, most of your options can get reversaled or backdashed if the opponent knows where all the holes in the pressure are (aka pretty much everywhere past 5C...).

[NumeroGaijin]

Any confirmation on combos??

[TagerTime]

Any confirmation on combos??

 

These are confirmed from the 1.1 videos i seen a few weeks ago as i said in my post above but there havnt been new 1.1 videos in the general video thread lately.

 

Instead of 5A>5b>3C they are using 5A>2B>3C because it does more damage.

 

5A>3C>Spark

5A>2B>3C>AC WHIFF>6A>2C>GF 1929

5A>5B>JA>JC>GP 1968

5A>2B>5B>3C>Asledge>Hammer 2000

[NumeroGaijin]

So in other words, 5A is no longer to be feared. You think people will still burst 5A still?

[TagerTime]

So in other words, 5A is no longer to be feared. You think people will still burst 5A still?

 

Did you see the post i made earlier about all the 5A combos that should still work in 1.1? http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5897-cp-iron-tager-gameplay-discussion/page-30#entry790284

without spark or heat we should do up to 2k

with spark and no heat we should do up to 3k

with spark and heat we should still do up to 5k

[Darlos9D]

Yeah if our 5A damage has dropped down to around 2k with mag, I'm actually not THAT upset. 2k damage into another GF is okay by me. It's not hella damage but its enough to where people don't want to just get hit by 5A out of GF repeatedly. You just gotta be willing to do something slightly more risky (5B, 5C, 360B, reversal bait, etc) if you really want more damage. But hey, close range mind games is our job.

 

I mean it could be worse. Like, we could go back to the days where 5A basically combo'd into nothing.

[StaSiS]

Yeah if our 5A damage has dropped down to around 2k with mag, I'm actually not THAT upset. 2k damage into another GF is okay by me. It's not hella damage but its enough to where people don't want to just get hit by 5A out of GF repeatedly. You just gotta be willing to do something slightly more risky (5B, 5C, 360B, reversal bait, etc) if you really want more damage. But hey, close range mind games is our job.

I mean it could be worse. Like, we could go back to the days where 5A basically combo'd into nothing.

could not agree more..

[D.R.F.]

could not agree more..

Wait a minute that was a thing??? (Sorry, only bb game is cp, you when tager is decent)

[Darlos9D]

Wait a minute that was a thing??? (Sorry, only bb game is cp, you when tager is decent)

 

Yeah. I can't recall exactly, but either 5B didn't combo into 5C, or 5A didn't combo into 5B. Either way, 5A was a particularly shit starter since it went effectively nowhere.

[mariusrhpsd]

Can you safejump with j.D after a Bsledge in the corner? I don't know if I can't get the timing right or if you just can't do it

[Brice]

j.D has jump recovery frames. Meaning that every time you do it, you'll be stuck in a position of not being able to do anything (even blocking) for a couple frames the moment you land.

 

I don't know if you would have time doing a j.D meaty safejump after a Bsledge, considering a j.B (with no landing recovery) is barely enough.

 

I can't test it right now, but my experience would guess that to make a j.D a safejump, it would have to recover so early that it wouldn't even be able to hit in the first place.... haven't tested it, so don't quote me on this, but for a wild guess in the dark that's what I'm thinking right now.

[mariusrhpsd]

Yeah, bsledge safe jumps are pretty tight, if j.D actually has landing recovery it may not be possible

BTW, which characters have the fastest dp/DD? i've been practicing with rags but i haven't looked up who has the fastest reversals