[CP] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

Basically it boils down to: you think he'll jump, AC him, you think he won't, 360 him. Unless you want to be safer with 5A or 2B.

Edited January 28, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[Tofu Warrior]

I've never tried to use 6A against Hotaru. Does it have to do with how the hitboxes align, or do I have to hold the 6A and absorb your Hotaru with the armor?

Also I still play online on occasion, school keeps me busy, but if you'd like to add me my GT is Tofu Demon.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

6A easily beats Hotaru, but Hakumen can jump again is the problem. (Yes you have to hold it for a but before the guard property becomes active)

And if I go for 6A I'm 3C bait (except for LOLNOEL)

[mAc Chaos]

It should hit Haku out of it though. You can do 6A, he jumps, then you gatling into 2C, what's he gonna do. Block? 2C pins him down in the air, AC grabs him GG

[Ctrlaltwtf]

It should hit Haku out of it though. You can do 6A, he jumps, then you gatling into 2C, what's he gonna do. Block? 2C pins him down in the air, AC grabs him GG

is it actually possible to 6A > Hotaru hits Tager (guarded by 6A) > Release 6A and hit Hakumen before he reaches the ground and blocks?

Obviously I'm talking about tk.Hotaru

[NumeroGaijin]

Do we need a guide on this? I'm really surprised by how many people did now know how GF worked in GF mix ups, like at all. It doesn't catch all jumps and it interacts weirdly with some backdashes. It technically does not give you a punish on a reversal murakumo backdash, but totally does on Arakune. For some things you have to hold it which makes it super bad on whiff. it normally takes at least like 24 frames to whiff a GF, so it isn't very safe to just throw out there.

If you hit them with the GF because them jumped or something, you cannot do it again because they lost downed state. You may RC it to combo them into another downed state to do it again.

Anyone want to help me with a guide of unusual GF mix up options? I used to have some for most match ups but I'm kinda out of practice what with all the other games I'm playing lately.

Edit: Not all of them are exactly option selects but tager can put people in bad positions. You can very slightly do a late GF if they already have plenty of mag and if they roll you can get a throw and if they neutral tech you get more frame advantage than if you had GF'd them, if they don't tech you just GF. Against jin you can option select his C dp because 5A recovers fast enough to block/backdash as described. Of course there is the throw reject barrier thing. OS's have to be weird because they need to involve whiff or barrier.

I too am surprised that these things are not known. I thought everyone knew about these things. I still remember when this and everything regarding GF and double GF was talked about.

[mAc Chaos]

I've never tried to use 6A against Hotaru. Does it have to do with how the hitboxes align, or do I have to hold the 6A and absorb your Hotaru with the armor?

Also I still play online on occasion, school keeps me busy, but if you'd like to add me my GT is Tofu Demon.

All right, I'll add you. XBL? Hopefully our connection is not ass.

[Mucky]

is it actually possible to 6A > Hotaru hits Tager (guarded by 6A) > Release 6A and hit Hakumen before he reaches the ground and blocks?

Obviously I'm talking about tk.Hotaru

6A super armor causes massive hitstop to the attacker, so I can feasibly see Hakumen getting hit in that situation.

Though I disagree that 6A is the best way to beat a tk Hotaru. Maybe as a hard callout it can work, but it's ridiculously unsafe and will lose to anything else. Making it whiff with 2B is a much better choice, since he can't jump cancel a whiffed hotaru and will helplessly fall into your 360/720 afterwards. And if the Hakumen decided not to jump, you aren't necessarily screwed. 5A is the safest choice, if you get an air hit pick it up with 5A > 5B xx AC > etc.

Also, I don't see any reason to use AC after GF anymore. That's CS1/CS2 stuff. 5A will hit anyone trying to jump out and it gives Tager a decent combo without leaving him wide open like AC does.

[Osuna]

I used to know them by heart from playing Axis practically every day, but then he stopped and pretty much every Tager on XBL died. My brother mains Tager though but he hasn't played in forever either. Although he doesn't even own Extend and does CS1 combos and still manages to win a lot against me. He just knows me too well. why.jpg

How does it give you a punish on Arakune? Since it would just put him back in GF.

Arakune's backdash doesn't get hit by it. He goes underground and then reapears in front of you. just 22D 360B/720C his backdash and there's nothing he can do about it.

6A should lose to hotaru straight up in anything like a GF situation. Hotaru is just faster and invincible through active frames and he can jump cancel it on hitting the armor, the hitstop on the armor counts for Both of you, it is there to give your opponents more time to react. If you hold it he has enough time to jump over you and punish, if you Don't hold it hotaru will actually just win in a GF situation (+3), so in a similar situation if you Hit him with 6A he screwed up. If you time it Just right you might force him to block it, which isn't terrible, I guess, but it is kinda lame.

You can however AC it if you do it late, and unless he can cheat the start up a reversal 5A should stop him from jumping out of GF.

2B also causes it to whiff, which gets you a 360B.

[mAc Chaos]

Hm, the 6A situation might be on normal oki and not GF. The rest is right though. I've definitely tried wakeup Hotaru and had it absorbed by 6A, and then got hit into a combo. I wasn't waiting or anything either so I don't know how else it could've happened.

Time to look at FRAME DATA

[mAc Chaos]

OK, it looks like 6A super armor starts 19 frames into the attack. If I'm reading this right: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Frame_Data_(Tager_BBCSE)

Haku jump startup is 4 frames, plus the +3 from GF, makes 7 frames. Then Hotaru itself has 11 frames of startup, that's 11 + 7 = 18. So I guess it can work if I Hotaru 1 frame too slow.

EDIT: Oh wait it says 6A starts super armor 18 frames in. A perfect match.

[Osuna]

OK, it looks like 6A super armor starts 19 frames into the attack. If I'm reading this right: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Frame_Data_(Tager_BBCSE)

Haku jump startup is 4 frames, plus the +3 from GF, makes 7 frames. Then Hotaru itself has 11 frames of startup, that's 11 + 7 = 18. So I guess it can work if I Hotaru 1 frame too slow.

The frame data is misleading a little bit. For example in GF if you Don't hold 6A Noel's 3C can beat it, but if you Do it absorbs it consistently.

Edit: to clarify, it actually totally does not work. Not theory crafting, this is what happens when you do this in the game.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Osuna

[mAc Chaos]

welp

You mean it won't work if you hold 6A? Or just 6A by itself.

[Osuna]

welp

You mean it won't work if you hold 6A? Or just 6A by itself.

6A > get hit by hotaru hold 6A > hotaru then jump cancel to safety. 6A is not useful as a call out for hotaru off of a GF, on a neutral tech sometimes/maybe but it would be really tight and you might as well just meaty them.

[mAc Chaos]

Oh okay. I was talking about if you hold it, not if you just use it normally. So it DOES work then, if you hold it? Or at least, you don't get hit. That's all I was saying.

[Osuna]

6A > get hit by hotaru hold

6A > hotaru then jump cancel to safety.

6A is not useful as a call out for hotaru off of a GF, on a neutral tech sometimes/maybe but it would be really tight and you might as well just meaty them.

Made easier to read, and the answer is sometimes, but Why would you do it with several better options. Sometimes his double jump gets hm Over the 6A unless it is timed very tightly then he can just hurt you.

It is bad and we should be done talking about it.

[mAc Chaos]

Wasn't 6A really good as a punish at one point. I think that's why I saw it used as a hard callout when it did. But yeah, I was just listing it as one of the options to show people what was possible. Safest options are just 5A and 2B.

[Osuna]

Wasn't 6A really good as a punish at one point. I think that's why I saw it used as a hard callout when it did. But yeah, I was just listing it as one of the options to show people what was possible. Safest options are just 5A and 2B.

Hard call out that actually hits him would be late AC

6A got a lot of nerfs when it got armor. It isn't a very good combo starter and the armor is often beatable on reaction.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Osuna

[Ctrlaltwtf]

6A's at its best at medium-ish range with magnetism. A distance you can safely get into the guard frames yet also attack fast enough to dissuade reaction lows. I would NEVER suggest using it against Hakumen, Bang, or any other character with really long range lows, or low-hitting 2As. The worst character to attempt it on is probably Hazama because his CH 3C is his most desirable meterless starter

Off of GF there's not much point to it, you've got all the options you need with 5A, 5B, AC, or 360.

Against Hakumen GF I would never recommend 5A, as it gets caught by ALL of his Zanshins. You should at least force him to guess by using 5B or 6B if you think he's going to try to Zanshin, but don't want to risk a 360 whiff

Honestly I prefer not to GF Hakumen at all, he's not exactly hard to get back in range when you need to. He's just too strong in GF situation for me. Similar to how I'd never GF another Tager.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Osuna]

Hakumen definitely has unique GF option, but 5A beats 5A and DP both of which are legitimate options for Hakumen in GF.

I personally find getting in on a good Hakumen extremely annoying because of 4C and j.C and all the meter he is rewarded with for turtling.

The biggest problem with 6A is that it is Really slow, and even at mid range a lot of people can just jump over you.

[mAc Chaos]

6A's at its best at medium-ish range with magnetism. A distance you can safely get into the guard frames yet also attack fast enough to dissuade reaction lows. I would NEVER suggest using it against Hakumen, Bang, or any other character with really long range lows, or low-hitting 2As. The worst character to attempt it on is probably Hazama because his CH 3C is his most desirable meterless starter

Off of GF there's not much point to it, you've got all the options you need with 5A, 5B, AC, or 360.

Against Hakumen GF I would never recommend 5A, as it gets caught by ALL of his Zanshins. You should at least force him to guess by using 5B or 6B if you think he's going to try to Zanshin, but don't want to risk a 360 whiff

Honestly I prefer not to GF Hakumen at all, he's not exactly hard to get back in range when you need to. He's just too strong in GF situation for me. Similar to how I'd never GF another Tager.

Yeah, it shouldn't be that easy to get in on Hakumen. Are you sure you aren't thinking it's easy because I tend to rush you down more often than not. Every time I zone you, you just switch to Hazama. :P Plus I've already zoned Tager so much I can do it in my sleep. It's more exciting to see how well I can do up close.

I do remember people saying that GF wasn't as good as just using normal neutral oki, but that might have been before Extend.

I love all these little mindgames that go on with Tager.

[Osuna]

Yeah, it shouldn't be that easy to get in on Hakumen. Are you sure you aren't thinking it's easy because I tend to rush you down more often than not. Every time I zone you, you just switch to Hazama. :P Plus I've already zoned Tager so much I can do it in my sleep. It's more exciting to see how well I can do up close.

I do remember people saying that GF wasn't as good as just using normal neutral oki, but that might have been before Extend.

I love all these little mindgames that go on with Tager.

It is sometimes true about extend. Some characters have multiple very good options in GF and the risk reward isn't as good. The change between cs2 and extend that made GF better was the buff to 5A, the 100 damage and extra heat were nice, but the 5A buff was what changed everything. It was the best option in GF but it used to lead to no damage. In some match ups I like to end some combos with j.D for more damage and to get them to tech in the air instead of on the ground.

[Mucky]

6A's at its best at medium-ish range with magnetism. A distance you can safely get into the guard frames yet also attack fast enough to dissuade reaction lows. I would NEVER suggest using it against Hakumen, Bang, or any other character with really long range lows, or low-hitting 2As. The worst character to attempt it on is probably Hazama because his CH 3C is his most desirable meterless starter

Off of GF there's not much point to it, you've got all the options you need with 5A, 5B, AC, or 360.

Against Hakumen GF I would never recommend 5A, as it gets caught by ALL of his Zanshins. You should at least force him to guess by using 5B or 6B if you think he's going to try to Zanshin, but don't want to risk a 360 whiff

Honestly I prefer not to GF Hakumen at all, he's not exactly hard to get back in range when you need to. He's just too strong in GF situation for me. Similar to how I'd never GF another Tager.

Why are you so afraid to GF Hakumen. That 5A loses to all of his drives is a moot point, because realistically he is only going to use 2D which also beats 5B. 6B does not have good recovery on a whiff and loses in any situation where the Hakumen didn't press 2D or block low. Actually, if 6A after GF is considered a bad option, 6B must be even worse because it's slower and doesn't get super armor. And if you think he's going to sit around long enough for the 6B to connect, you could easily just 360 him, which is faster, lands regardless if he's mashing drive or blocking, does more damage, and is unburstable. I wouldn't consider using 6B even in a block string, let alone after GF oki.

Look at this way, a character like Ragna has better options after GF than Hakumen does, and he still eats plenty of 5As and 360s. Even if a character has a reversal, they might be too scared to use it if you know how to shut it down. And some of them will be looking for your attempts to bait them, which opens them up to 5As and 360s again. It goes back and forth.

Not using GF on Tager however, I will agree. Fuck that shit.

[Koopa_Klawz]

Here's basically how it goes with GF on Hakumen

5A: Beats everything except for counters that aren't 5D or j.D

360: Beats all ground options including counters (except for AH of course) but loses to shit like TK Hotaru.

You don't really need anything else in this mix up. :p

[A.X.I.S.]

Did this guy just say never use 5A after GF on Hakumen because of counters?

Oh my god.

Really the only pokes you should use outside of 5A after gadget is 5C and 6C.

5C catches everyones back dash unless you are Mu, Lambda, Taokaka, and Arakune.

In the case of Mu, Lambda, and Taokaka you would use 6C to blow up backdash.

Arakune you can whiff gadget and 360B him..it feels tight though but manageable.

With that done let me continue on with my first statement:

If you look at Hakumens counters as a reversal then using 5A just carries the risk of being reversal'd.

Doesn't make it a bad option at all. what if Hakumen counters and we do a grab instead of 5A?

He has to make a guess too! counter and catch a jab or get thrown.

ala 50/50.

About 6A:

It was really really good now it is only decent against low level players.

Theoretically the armor would be amazing against air approaches but it is far too slow for it to be worth it and the magnetic pull hurts it.

I miss when 6A was great.

P.S: Tager 6A has armor against Noel's 3C, Freaking hilarious when it gets caught.