[CP] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Yeah, I already mentioned Noel's 3C and it seems like no one believed it.

I really still hate Hakumen on GF, its not like 5A is a great choice because it can only be countered by Zanshin. Zanshin isn't exactly a difficult solution. TK Hotaru beats pretty much every other option, even passive blocking or backstepping, because Hakumen recovers so damn fast. So it's a consistent 50/50 which isn't a favorable situation to either party. I feel a lot stronger against someone like Ragna, if he goes for a DP I can block it and murder him.

The one thing that really works against Hakumen in this is his non-invulnerable backstep. That's something strongly in Tager's favor.

I still prefer normal Oki or tech traps. (haha awesome my phone capitalizes Oki)

[mAc Chaos]

inb4 backstep into hotaru for invulnerability

[Osuna]

Yeah, I already mentioned Noel's 3C and it seems like no one believed it.

I really still hate Hakumen on GF, its not like 5A is a great choice because it can only be countered by Zanshin. Zanshin isn't exactly a difficult solution. TK Hotaru beats pretty much every other option, even passive blocking or backstepping, because Hakumen recovers so damn fast. So it's a consistent 50/50 which isn't a favorable situation to either party. I feel a lot stronger against someone like Ragna, if he goes for a DP I can block it and murder him.

The one thing that really works against Hakumen in this is his non-invulnerable backstep. That's something strongly in Tager's favor.

I still prefer normal Oki or tech traps. (haha awesome my phone capitalizes Oki)

High risk/reward 50/50 is about all you can hope for with a grappler. Do the math on normal Oki and you'll find that it isn't any better for Tager.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

High risk/reward 50/50 is about all you can hope for with a grappler. Do the math on normal Oki and you'll find that it isn't any better for Tager.

yes, but in terms of time, GF gives so much more time for your opponent to think about their strategy. This is why I love tech traps, which offer very little time for reaction, even they are technically at the same frame-data situation as GF.

[Osuna]

yes, but in terms of time, GF gives so much more time for your opponent to think about their strategy. This is why I love tech traps, which offer very little time for reaction, even they are technically at the same frame-data situation as GF.

What you're saying is that you don't like oki. That's not very productive.

[skd]

yes, but in terms of time, GF gives so much more time for your opponent to think about their strategy. This is why I love tech traps, which offer very little time for reaction, even they are technically at the same frame-data situation as GF.

if your opponents are just mindlessly teching or dont understand the exact repercussions of what they are doing, then yeah go ahead. But if you think people cant "think" or react quickly enough to a tech trap i suggest you stop netplaying so much~

does magnetized air 360 (this is a thing right, im not crazy?) pull in? im thinking you can do air purple grab > teched into some sort of pull mixup for a literal "tech" trap /rimshot

[Ctrlaltwtf]

What you're saying is that you don't like oki. That's not very productive.

Except I didn't.

I still prefer normal Oki or tech traps. (haha awesome my phone capitalizes Oki)

Even a Neutral Tech is shorter than GF, and you can do stuff during the Neutral Tech's invulnerability frames that can mislead your opponent, unlike GF where you're stuck doing an animation until the moment of truth.

does magnetized air 360 (this is a thing right, im not crazy?) pull in? im thinking you can do air purple grab > teched into some sort of pull mixup for a literal "tech" trap /rimshot

I haven't seen anything off of a teched grab, but this was rather hilarious. The failed purple tech turns the 360C into a TRM by default

Edited January 29, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[mAc Chaos]

if your opponents are just mindlessly teching or dont understand the exact repercussions of what they are doing, then yeah go ahead. But if you think people cant "think" or react quickly enough to a tech trap i suggest you stop netplaying so much~

does magnetized air 360 (this is a thing right, im not crazy?) pull in? im thinking you can do air purple grab > teched into some sort of pull mixup for a literal "tech" trap /rimshot

Yeah they are already doing that in a lot of vids. It is hilarious.

[Osuna]

if your opponents are just mindlessly teching or dont understand the exact repercussions of what they are doing, then yeah go ahead. But if you think people cant "think" or react quickly enough to a tech trap i suggest you stop netplaying so much~

does magnetized air 360 (this is a thing right, im not crazy?) pull in? im thinking you can do air purple grab > teched into some sort of pull mixup for a literal "tech" trap /rimshot

It will be in chrono phantasm.

At high level play there aren't many tech traps because players will naturally move toward the best options on tech, then if you can mix up that particular tech trap they will reduce it to a regular mix up. I mean it is gimmicky and cute to do a lot of them as people unfamiliar with that aspect of the match up will get hit, a lot. I've gotten plenty of perfects by doing oki the opponent did not know.

I don't like letting them land on the ground and tech very much because then you have to throw out a move in case they roll and that uses up a lot of the frame advantage.

It can get really hard to surprise some people after 500 matches with them, and then it is all just mix ups anyway. The real downside to most tech traps is when you don't know how much knowledge they have on the subject, because a lot of them put you in a bad position if they tech right. This is compounded by tech traps typically requiring you to use sub optimal combos.

But in the end my favorite way to end a combo is with j.D.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

It will be in chrono phantasm.

At high level play there aren't many tech traps because players will naturally move toward the best options on tech, then if you can mix up that particular tech trap they will reduce it to a regular mix up. I mean it is gimmicky and cute to do a lot of them as people unfamiliar with that aspect of the match up will get hit, a lot. I've gotten plenty of perfects by doing oki the opponent did not know.

I don't like letting them land on the ground and tech very much because then you have to throw out a move in case they roll and that uses up a lot of the frame advantage.

It can get really hard to surprise some people after 500 matches with them, and then it is all just mix ups anyway. The real downside to most tech traps is when you don't know how much knowledge they have on the subject, because a lot of them put you in a bad position if they tech right. This is compounded by tech traps typically requiring you to use sub optimal combos.

But in the end my favorite way to end a combo is with j.D.

I agree with practically this entire post. I generally prefer to force my enemy to tech in the air. If they go limp I even do SMP AC's until they recover in the air. The best part about doing that is they'll tech facing the wrong direction so they can't quickly punish me or anything. It nets me a lot of Heat while I'm at it.

[Fluck]

You can't force anyone to tech in the air favorably. If you do SMP ACs they'll just instant tech and then hit you cause they have frame advantage and Tager's anti-airs suck.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

You can't force anyone to tech in the air favorably. If you do SMP ACs they'll just instant tech and then hit you cause they have frame advantage and Tager's anti-airs suck.

They tech the wrong direction after AC. It's not like I use a billion of them. They don't tech instantly in CSX on SMP. I believe in CP they will though. If I think the stun proration is getting too dangerous I just GF.

There's no such thing as a guaranteed reset. No matter you try, there's always something that can work against it. If there wasn't, the game would be shit. Even GF can be undone by a large variety of things. So matter what kind of reset or trap you try to use, it's easy to just poke holes it by saying someone can get out of it. Tiers are based on what characters can do. Winning or Losing is based on what players actually do.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Fluck]

The difference is that a tech trap reset doesn't work on players who know how the reset works. It's not a matter of chance, you basically give up momentum for free if they know what to do, whereas GF is a real, pure guess that even the best players cannot avoid. That is why GF is preferable to a reset.

[Osuna]

The difference is that a tech trap reset doesn't work on players who know how the reset works. It's not a matter of chance, you basically give up momentum for free if they know what to do, whereas GF is a real, pure guess that even the best players cannot avoid. That is why GF is preferable to a reset.

I wouldn't say preferable so much as not exactly comparable? Resets are very good, they just aren't supposed to replace mix up entirely. GF can't be undone in a way that is analogous to a reset or tech trap, like you said.

For example, 5D delay 22D that ctrl has talked about before. There is a single option that makes this do nothing. Short of bursting before the GF there is no way to avoid it, however in what is described as ACing them multiple times trying to get them to tech they have a lot of control over their recovery and a smart decision will very consistently gain them the advantage.

Also yes, depending on proration people can instant tech a collider, can take often require 3 though.

[Tong]

Was thia a Tachi Gigas (Standing 720)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AePpWQZHo5I&feature=player_detailpage#t=515s

[Osuna]

Was thia a Tachi Gigas (Standing 720)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AePpWQZHo5I&feature=player_detailpage#t=515s

um no. He jumps then 720s.

edit: he does a very slight delay by buffering the first 360 during the jump, but that is not what you would call a standing 720.

[Tofu Warrior]

All right, I'll add you. XBL? Hopefully our connection is not ass.

I assume you're from Pennsylvania, which is pretty close to Montreal, so our connection should be pretty good. We'll try it and see. And yes, XBL.

[mAc Chaos]

You are correct. But I'm in Virginia right now. My connection with BladeOfJustice is pretty good though and he's in Canada.

[Tofu Warrior]

Blade is a good friend of mine, we both live in Montreal. If I see you online in the future, I'll shoot you an invite.

[Tong]

Seems Grand Punish is Anti-Burst:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=G2uXZpA_2ok#t=366s

lol

[mAc Chaos]

grand punish confirmed for greatest move

[Osuna]

Why would they even let you burst that move? Well, this very slightly limits burst options even further.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Really feels like you shouldn't be able to Burst until another hit/tech. That's just noob-bait with the way it is right now lol.

I wonder if it's possible to GP -> RC -> tk.GP again (or I suppose just any kind of RC > ??? > GP). It seems to do 400 unproratable damage, like CSX Not Over Yet. Dunno if GP works on grounded enemies though, regardless of whether or not you could do it fast enough.

Only reason I'm suggesting it is because on that video he would've killed her with just one more GP, but he might not be able to RC > Combo off of GP.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Manta]

That's like a move half done. I understand that for set-piece moves like throws and grand punish, you have to make the attacker invulnerable to stop random shit like a Mu bouncy laser messing things up, but at the same time, that's the reason throws are burst proof in the first place, since that deliberately cancels any stun effect in play.

At least they couldn't burst the first hit. That would be really odd.

[Tofu Warrior]

So it seems like the hitbox on Tager's 2A has been greatly improved. I've seen it cleanly beat some ridiculous jump ins in other videos, this one is pretty crazy because it hits behind Tager. Worth testing to see how reliable 2A is as an anti-air now.