[CP] µ12: Gameplay Discussion

[bakahyl]

You have to work on your jump in's because you got hit out of the air way too unnecessary often by his 5a and 5b.

Usually i avoid rushing a Tsubaki player down without some laser support but if i have to, i rather try my chances with j.b for air to ground situations than j.c. Avoid airdashing too often and try to bait his AA with a double jump instead

I know daedron's playing style (IMO he is sometimes a bit random/YOLO, but not as random as lvl5jeepchan) and I know he goes for j.a or airthrow alot if you are close. I usually use j.c as a poking tool when i jump backwards to prevent Tsubaki randomly airdashing towards me and use j.a and j.b (and airthrows) to fight him in the air because those are faster than j.c. J.c still works but you have to work on your spacing to beat him air to air.

J.2c can work if he tries to approach you, but knowing his more aggresive style of play i don't try that too often

Because Tsubaki's pressure is not entirely solid, you can backdash, mash or dp out of certain moments of Tsubaki's pressure. Also using barrier guard against her b and c moves will help

You are right on your movement. Alot of times you could have avoided Tsubaki's "shield charges" and you could have punished those on whiff.

Also don't be afraid to use more steins in neutral when you are far away. You can still cancel your stein sets with a backdash (or a regular jump) or even a dp if you see him rushing towards you and it can also stop the D version of Tsuaki's shield charge when it absorbed her D projectile.

Daedron likes his gimmicky crossunder after using a midscreen combo with a whiffed 22c (or whatever 22 move it was). You can adjust your blocking or delay your tech, so that it the combo will blue beat (and tech out later of the combo, so that it will only add a few hundreds damage) to prevent yourself from getting resetted

Edited March 3, 2014 by bakahyl

[Daedron]

I also told him to use j.2C more but I'm not entirely sure if that's a viable option to add after say a blocked 5C > 6C > stein cancel > stuff, I feel like his pressure always just ends there even though there's many options he has to keep me guessing at that point.

Daedron likes his gimmicky crossunder after using a midscreen combo with a whiffed 22c (or whatever 22 move it was). You can adjust your blocking or delay your tech, so that it the combo will blue beat (and tech out later of the combo, so that it will only add a few hundreds damage) to prevent yourself from getting resetted

Delaying your tech is probably your best bet, adjusting your block could work but I can do 2B crossunder > command grab or just intentionally mess it up so the crossunder doesn't happen.

Delay teching can still be risky however as all I need to do is wait a split second with 2B and I get a free reset combo off it, but it's generally still the better option.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Daedron

[bakahyl]

I also told him to use j.2C more but I'm not entirely sure if that's a viable option to add after say a blocked 5C > 6C > stein cancel > stuff, I feel like his pressure always just ends there even though there's many options he has to keep me guessing at that point.

Usually 5c is the sign of the end of Mu's pressure. He goes to gattle into 5c a bit too early.

However, Mu can still try to mix things up like slightly delaying 5c>6c as a frametrap , use 5c 3c and jump away , get gutsy and use 5c into another 5c, 5c into habaya or into steins because always using 5c>6c gets predictable

If he goes into 5c>6c, he has no real option left besides stein cancel or a special cancel. Eventhough 5c>6c >(optional d)> SoD can also work as a frame trap

edit:

5c>6c> 5d > j.2c is very risky and can easily be beaten. It's usually not recommended unless the opponent likes to airdash towards you alot

edit: @CrushingEagle

Try to use some kind of oki once in a while. I know Mu's oki in CP is so much worse compared to CSE but she still has some gimmicks that might help you if you learn it

Pocp had posted a few

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15423-CP-%C2%B512-Gameplay-Discussion/page113&p=1595900&viewfull=1#post1595900

Edited March 3, 2014 by bakahyl

[CrushingEagle]

Thanks for the feedback, you two. I really appreciate it.

As to the setups, I learned most of them but still fail to memorize that I actually have them as an option in matches so I guess that might be a muscle memory kinda thing. I'll try and use them more often.

[pochp]

bakahyl covered most of it, but there's a point I disagree on. I think you were respecting or expecting the shield rush too much, and because of that let your opponent in way more often than you should of. If you block one of your opponent's attacks and he's in your face, you lost neutral. Focus on all those times where you just let him in without challenging, and think of what you should have done differently that lead to that situation (I think for the most part you should be able to figure it out, but if not don't hesitate to ask).

He didn't use shield rush/3c/yolo dp enough to warrant playing as safe as you did imo, and you could have used more pokes, and definitely more anti-airs. Using an occasional 236a or j.236a would benefit you as well, it does a great job of keeping out the opponent, just have to be careful of Tsubaki's projectile invincible version of the shield rush, but it takes a lot longer to start up so as long as you aren't predictable it'll work out.

[Wild Candy]

What are some strategies you should use when setting up Oki?

[Zeromus_X]

Here are some basic setups, buried deep within the thread:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15423-CP-%C2%B512-Gameplay-Discussion/page27&p=1571594&viewfull=1#post1571594

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15423-CP-%C2%B512-Gameplay-Discussion/page29&p=1595900&viewfull=1#post1595900

C0R's post is a great place to get started. In general, you can end corner combos with j5D and then do 2B~5B as an option select against rolls/delay getup for a basic okizeme, using the laser to keep your mixup safe and extend pressure. Against characters with good DPs or other fast reversal options, make use of safejump setups and punish them hard for DP'ing. Once you've conditioned them to block, you can go crazy with more elaborate setups.

[susano]

What's a good way to practice better zoning with Mu aside from playing against people? Still find myself screwing up as of late and getting decimated.

[bakahyl]

So the changes seem to be mostly the same as the previous info

Roughly translated

Backdash shortened from 25f-22f, the backdash distance is slightly lowered (didn't specify how much)

Negative penalty resistence lowered from 8 to 4

Counterassault has a better hitbox

Max charged Furu no Tsurugi has the same recovery as the non charged versions: from 26f to 22f

Ikutachi: speed decreased when crossing over, making it easier to hit the opponent

Tsugunui (dp) changes: Has first 8 frames invincibility (first 7f on the arial version) instead of full armour. Less blockback, lowered untech time from 28-19f

Astral Heat has a better hitbox

j.2c has a larger hurtbox

http://www.famitsu.com/matome/bbcp/tyousei5.html

edit: SoWL's translation

Mu:

Backdash - duration reduced from 25 to 22 frames. Traveling distance slightly decreased.

Negative Penalty Resistance - reduced from 8 to 4.

Counter-Assault - hitbox is improved (now hits targets like crouching Taokaka).

j.2C - Mu's hurtbox is larger.

Sword of Decimation - the Lv.3 version's recovery is now 22 frames (rather than 26).

Sword of Rebirth - the speed after jumping over the opponent is decreased, making it easier to hit with.

Origins - the float's height is decreased, the untech time is decreased to 19 frames (rather than 28). Rather than starting from the move's start-up, the super-armor now activates from 8th frame (on ground) and from 7th frame (in midair).

Sword of the Godslayer - hitbox is improved.

Edited March 12, 2014 by bakahyl

[susano]

So the changes seem to be mostly the same as the previous info

Roughly translated

Backdash shortened from 25f-22f, the backdash distance is slightly lowered (didn't specify how much)

Negative penalty resistence lowered from 8 to 4

Counterassault has a better hitbox

Max charged Furu no Tsurugi has the same recovery as the non charged versions: from 26f to 22f

Ikutachi: speed decreased when crossing over, making it easier to hit the opponent

Tsugunui (dp) changes: Has first 8 frames invincibility (first 7f on the arial version) instead of full armour. Less blockback, lowered untech time from 28-19f

Astral Heat has a better hitbox

j.2c has a larger hurtbox

http://www.famitsu.com/matome/bbcp/tyousei5.html

edit: SoWL's translation

I don't like that reduction. I just don't.

[bakahyl]

I don't like that reduction. I just don't.

what reduction? on her backdash or the ones on her dp or ikutachi?

Edited March 12, 2014 by bakahyl

[susano]

what reduction? on her backdash or the ones on her dp or ikutachi?

I meant resistance. Negative resistance.

[bakahyl]

I meant resistance. Negative resistance.

Does it even matter? They kind of standardized all the negative penalty resistance for most characters and right now Mu tied with Nu when it comes to resistance. She didn't even need to have that much anyway

[bakahyl]

Double post:

My guess is that Mu's new backdash distance will be probably closer to Jin's or Rachel's after the patch because it says "slightly lowered". If that is the case then i don't think it's a big nerf because the duration has become 3 frames less, making it frame wise similar to Jin's

Edited March 12, 2014 by bakahyl

[Errol]

neg pen changes are unlikely to matter for anyone really at all, except maybe the characters that had no negative penalty resistance. frankly I never got neg pen in CP even playing a defensive game trying to get charge with tsubaki, with her 2 resistance. I did get it, very easily, in EX.

The Dp nerf is going to be pretty big.

[bakahyl]

The Dp nerf is going to be pretty big.

It is but her dp was pretty fraudulent because it could beat many safe jump setups and other setups like some of Carl's UB gimmicks

[Errol]

super fraud, that's for sure.

On the flip side, it will be easily OS'd now, which typical DPs at 10 frames are not, so I am looking forward to that.

[susano]

Double post:

My guess is that Mu's new backdash distance will be probably closer to Jin's or Rachel's after the patch because it says "slightly lowered". If that is the case then i don't think it's a big nerf because the duration has become 3 frames less, making it frame wise similar to Jin's

I guess it wouldn't be a big deal but that dp nerf...

[pochp]

mmm negative penalty nerf... I might be spending a lot of time in danger mode now. With the j.2c nerf I might be doing less of that and even more air backdash.

Curious about the DP untechable time nerf. Makes sense for midscreen, but I wonder if corner 6c 2d DP or 6b 5d DP knockdowns will still be good.

DP guard point nerf... I wonder how it'll be. If the guard point is on the 8th frame, would that mean that while you will be able to safejump it, it'll be harder to do so than against 9f startup reversals... It should lose to some grounded stuff though, like 2a meaty, which is what I'm assuming Errol is referring to. I wonder how effective it'll be against pokes at neutral, might have to stop doing that :>

Ikutachi change sounds nice, I hope it makes comboing after a really far 6c more stable now. Wonder if the slower speed will affect current combos due to the combo timer stuff.

Counter assault change is great. Hope they change 5b's hitbox similarly... not likely :<

Ground backdash might still be good depending on how much the range is nerfed.

Random thought about that astral change. I checked Keba's profile the other day, if I read it right he's never done an astral finish with his card.

So overall... slightly less fraudulent, slightly more stable? Seems good.

[Errol]

Even with 4 neg penalty you're going to have to run away really hard for that to kick in. CP is not EX, neg penalty is not even a factor for tsubaki currently and she's got the worst neg penalty combined with wanting to play a defensive game to get charge. It was a real problem in EX for tsubaki, but in CP even with terrible negative penalty resistance it's kinda hard to get it.

It might be slightly harder to safe jump than other dps but probably most safe jumps will work fine.. if you tried to safe jump a dp with startup at 9, if your hitbox wasn't gone by 8 anyway I'm pretty sure you would get hit. Just shouldn't be easier to safe jump than other dps because of the guard point.

2a>4b os to beat it will be super super easy though. I doubt it will change in neutral?

The new dp untech time is the same as the better counter assaults... on normal hit, air tech, IAD will probably put them right back on you.

[Raiza57]

Even with 4 neg penalty you're going to have to run away really hard for that to kick in.

2a>4b os to beat it will be super super easy though. I doubt it will change in neutral?

:toot::toot:

You must have not fought Mu-12, backdashxN

But that DP nerf =3 Get hype. Now she can get hit by Carls universal UB, the one that worked on her was extremely unstable and annoying to pull off. Not only that but yes that OS punish is going to be hella free. Just came to rub the nerfs in yall fraudulent ass characters face... Mhh and all Carl got was buffs

This matchup is probably no longer going to be in her favor hold deeez nerfs

That is all

~Shiro

Lmao shiro an ass yo, but damn that DP nerf is gonna make it hella free. Like after nails and stuff I would usually dash in and get DP'ed sometimes. But now its like, anytime I (Or any character) approach I can just 5a>4barrier>1barrier for the auto 5a>5b>2B to confirm into stuff. And she got a negative penalty nerf, but all the neutral characters did. Cause right now I never see negative penalty for people who do nothing but hold up back and backdash all day. So im hype for that nerf.

[Zeromus_X]

The Negative Penalty nerf makes sense. I honestly don't remember getting Negative Warning ever with Mu throughout the entirety of CP...

Shoryu should still be fine as a reversal to call out predictable pressure, just less of a "throw it out there" DP. It even seems like her defense will be better overall depending on how buffed our Counter Assault gets. It was very frustrating to have a CA whiff completely because somebody 2A or 2B'd under it during their pressure, so hopefully that won't happen as much anymore.

Can't wait for the new Mu changes to be announced. I'm gonna take a big guess and say they'll be listed along with Nu and Izayoi, given how the pattern has been so far.

Edit: Lol wow, I totally missed the famitsu link. So her changes are pretty much the same as before. If these are the only changes, Mu might even up even better ranked than before, thanks to poor matchups like Valk and Tao getting nerfed.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zeromus_X

[Raiza57]

The Negative Penalty nerf makes sense. I honestly don't remember getting Negative Warning ever with Mu throughout the entirety of CP...

Shoryu should still be fine as a reversal to call out predictable pressure, just less of a "throw it out there" DP. It even seems like her defense will be better overall depending on how buffed our Counter Assault gets. It was very frustrating to have a CA whiff completely because somebody 2A or 2B'd under it during their pressure, so hopefully that won't happen as much anymore.

Can't wait for the new Mu changes to be announced. I'm gonna take a big guess and say they'll be listed along with Nu and Izayoi, given how the pattern has been so far.

Edit: Lol wow, I totally missed the famitsu link. So her changes are pretty much the same as before. If these are the only changes, Mu might even up even better ranked than before, thanks to poor matchups like Valk and Tao getting nerfed.

Considering that all of Tao's nerfs were directed to her max damage combo enders, I would disagree with that. Most skilled Tao players avoid doing max damage enders because they lose Oki, and in the Mu matchup thats not something you would go for anyway. Valk, albeit he received a meter nerf, is still going to be the same; he can now combo into W~236a from a W~5c. He no longer needs meter to combo from a wolf starter other than the passive meter drain he always has. So this change I would say applies more to neutral and mixup. So yea, they both got nerfed, but they are both pretty small nerfs. Valks was kinda big, but because they game him a faster 236a it no longer makes that nerf all that crippling to his corner lockdown. But you are right, he is nerfed. And so are you, do keep that in mind. How many times have most Mu-12 players clashed with an AA using j2c now you will be getting hit each and every time. Not only that but that negative penalty resistance is going to bite most in the ass very hard. Valk and Tao cant fight by running away.

~Shiro

[Errol]

I get how much Mu players run away Shiro. But noone ever ever ever gets negative penalty in this game. you seriously have to be constantly iad'ing back to get it, even with lower resistance. I doubt this will change any playstyles. but if it does that is good. If it changes any GOOD playstyles, hey, that's good for me too. I don't think it will though. That's all.

I would've rather seen something done to stein spam. That playstyle is too lame.

[bakahyl]

Also Negative Penalty seems to be slightly negated if you microdash forward and place any stein (usually 6d or 2d ) because that actually counts as an attack , combine that with a jump cancel on the stein and you can still go nuts with steins

This nerf won't hit me that hard