[CP] Izayoi Gameplay Discussion - Tobe! Gandamu!

[hakimiru]

Welp, that explains a lot of things...

[skd]

its been like that since 1.0, which is why the increased emphasis on movement options was so welcome. You can even block attacks while in the air, and still be punished as soon as you hit the floor in the middle of a blockstring.

 

While D saber does cost 2 stars, its a lot nicer to use in situations where you might get tagged but are unsure if you can cover yourself properly because it doesn't have that additional landing recovery. Further, GA has D teleport after A saber, so it's a...little bit safer to go for, but still very risky and definitely not a thing to do without the meta to back it up.

 

@justice: I was watching those spring fighter matches, you might want to move yourself into better positions before actually committing to A saber, or not using your air options as liberally before going into it. It isn't that free to use, and you generally use it at heights, angles, and spacings where anyone aware of the character could really make it hurt. Your general usage should be at a height/situation where you can still double jump, airdash, or generally dissuade a committed kind of movement under the saber, where an attack would whiff or you could attack before something would connect that would tag the landing recovery (be it through a blockstring or just raw hit).

 

Even if my critique is unwelcome, im pretty sure talking about this kind of thing (arguably one of the bigger aspects of neutral with her) would help at least one other person.

 

Pretty much, if they go underneath a saber, you are in a really shitty situation without the means to back it up, and even with the means to back it up its still a pretty tough situation to be in. its a lot nicer in GA thanks to extra movement/teleport and access to D saber, but the same rules apply. So, now you could do something like jump, saber, dj7, jD, and airdash forward or back to move into a better position. Maybe even shoot another saber, come down with a normal, teleport, delay your landing with another modechange (lol), airdash etc. Just, keeping your options open and actually showing your opponent that you know how to take advantage of those things will let you get away with a lot more unsafe stuff, which is pretty much a necessity for winning with her against anyone who actually knows how to fight the character.

[crimsonstardust]

I'm a little confused by this, just how high does she need to be to do something after an air sonic saber? I definitely wanna get this down, I usually get blown up for using an air sonic saber if I don't space it right.

[Justice7541]

Yeah I choked pretty hard on stream, I kept getting counterhit by Kagura 6DC too cause I'm bad at games. Not to mention all the times I dropped dumb stuff like 2A 5C and Strike Fall enders. On the other hand, 3 Astrals in 3 matches. Also Lich coaching Hard Bread during our matches THANKS FOR THE BACKUP DUDE I COULD HAVE WON THAT OTHERWISE

And yeah I tend to TK Sonic Saber a lot since most of the peoiple I play don't seem to know how to deal with it (even though they definitely should since they play me all the time). There definitely is a tradeoff between doing a high Sonic Saber (easier to avoid, but you get movement after) and a low one though (harder to avoid, easier to punish if you do). That said Izayoi has pretty bad air normals so I usually try to just block if I don't get a Saber to connect.

Also yolo D teleport worked way more times than it should have this weekend so that's a general indication of how little people knew about the matchup in general. Playing people with more matchup familiarity would probably help iron out a lot of the dumb shit I do.

[skd]

As far as A saber > movement, Its pretty much something youre just going to have to get down and feel the timing out yourself.

 

There are a few differences between the two modes, namely forward/backwards airdash in normal mode has a lower minimum height than in GA. Pretty much if you want to cover space as effectively and quickly as possible, its important! Double jump height is the same between both modes, and is usually the preferred option.

 

And izayoi's air normals are good lol? Normal mode jC is great, jA is pretty damn good all around (seriously this move is fucking hot like fire). jB has the least neutral use, but is good for covering certian spaces with a very little amount of recovery. GA jC is just a really strong normal.

Edited June 9, 2014 by not_lunaris

[Justice7541]

j.C in both modes is mostly a jump-in thing (although I find myself pressing NM j.C to try to do airdash-under crossunders a lot), you're just going to die a lot if you try to press j.C air-to-air.  j.A is a decent air-to-air normal but it's not super fast for what it does and lots of characters have stuff that just beats it clean.

 

Also according to SRK i'm the best (and only) Izayoi player in the world lol, you should probably start coming to tourneys.

[skd]

jC is good for jump in, but being able to hit standing hitboxes (aka a lot of anti air hitboxes) before the invin kicks in with a really early jC is where it shines, and can single handedly force respect in a lot of situations (and you can still move before you hit the ground!)

 

There is literally no reason to press jC air to air, and spacing yourself around your normals is something you have to do with every character. jA has a great hitbox, I dont really know what to say. It outranges a ton of things for its speed and the only characters with faster air jabs (not necessarily better hitboxes) are amane, noel, koko, tao (all 6f) and carl (5f) so i would be more than hard pressed to say anything about its startup, lol

Edited June 10, 2014 by not_lunaris

[Justice7541]

jC is good for jump in, but being able to hit standing hitboxes (aka a lot of anti air hitboxes) before the invin kicks in with a really early jC is where it shines, and can single handedly force respect in a lot of situations (and you can still move before you hit the ground!)

There is literally no reason to press jC air to air, and spacing yourself around your normals is something you have to do with every character. jA has a great hitbox, I dont really know what to say. It outranges a ton of things for its speed and the only characters with faster air jabs (not necessarily better hitboxes) are amane, noel, koko, tao (all 6f) and carl (5f) so i would be more than hard pressed to say anything about its startup, lol

You just listed the mains of like everyone at NYU so maybe I'm biased. Azrael j.A seems to beat Izayoi j.A every time too, it's probably a hitbox thing although I dunno the startup, it's probably the same.

Also Kokonoe doesn't need to space normals lol, you can just hold j.A all the way up and back down and win everything.

[skd]

I mean, I also fight a lot of azrael, and izayoi jA definitely cleanly beats a lot of his air normals? Koko's is really godlike, but most of the time I upback jA/B to call out an airdash or guess on something ill end up trading/clashing with kokonoe 9j[A]. You arent using jA to hit them, but rather their extended hitboxes on normals while maintaining a safe distance with very little recovery, with a pretty solid hitbox. Its goooooooodddd auUGUUGHUH. I think the only air jab that gives izayoi's that much trouble is kokonoe's, really. Otherwise it generally beats things pretty clean. Training mode with it? Its soo goood

[Justice7541]

I'm probably late to the party on this but I just found out that the rejump loop is, like, ridiculously easy off 3C.  Normal starter > 3C 236B~214A 5C j.BAAC 5A etc. requires no specific delay timing whatsoever (you can just mash it out) and the old j.delayB, delayAC combo now works on characters whom it didn't work on before.

 

So yeah, 3C is funny.

[crimsonstardust]

I dunno if the hurtbox has been adjusted on some characters with the patch but I know 5C can miss some characters when they are in a otg state off of 236B, I know it may not work on Amane cause he's one of the weird ones that can't be hit by it from the list of characters I know on top of my head. I'll test it in the lab when I can get around to it, may be different now.

[Justice7541]

Izayoi has too many obnoxious character-specific combos for basic stuff, especially for a beginner character. It's like if Ragna Hell's Fang randomly dropped on Carl or something, imagine the rage from the casuals if that happened in the next iteration,

[crimsonstardust]

I was reading some of the posts again about jC, at least from what I got, it sounds like it can beat some normals that people try to anti air with, but I've seen myself get beaten out of it by jab mashes, (Azrael 5A and Jin's 2A come to mind).

I also feel like I've hit my plateu with Izayoi, can't really open anyone up without risking getting swatted out of the air in GA and my own advise I've given to people aren't quite working like before. ): Its getting harder with a local I've been playing cause he constantly disrespects Izayoi's pressure and it makes it hard for me to do anything against a wall of normals, ugh. How are you guys dealing with stuff like that? I've been having trouble dealing with players that are not afraid to hit buttons, either that or there is something wrong with my gameplan against Azrael now...

[Justice7541]

If he's disrespecting your pressure throw out more 2Cs and Sonic Sabers. I started doing that after my friend started mashing Noel 4D against all my GA blockstrings. 2A 2C is a really good string for punishing disrespect once you've got them trained to mash when they expect a GA dash.

Also j.C isn't supposed to straight-up beat out AA moves, SKD is talking about using it at max vertical range to beat out slightly late AAs (because the hitbox is lower than the hurtbox) forcing them to time their presses better.

[crimsonstardust]

The 2A 2C frame trap sounds like it will help considering I don't have any with her. ^^; Anyway, a specific problem I'm having now is really approaching with her without running the risk of taking a normal to the face, against the local player I'm playing, as Azrael he loves to stop my approaches by mashing jA or jB and will sit on a life lead and swat me out when I approach. I'm having trouble with this aspect of Izayoi cause a lot of people realize it easy to disrespect a head on charge or just hit a button when she's circling around. I know that jA can challenge a lot of air to air moves but I can't always be doing that but I guess it's there to show that is something she can do, though that leaves the problem for not getting swatted from anti air normals when I try to approach, this is the part where I'm having trouble getting people to respect it.

[Justice7541]

If the character has a good AA Sonic Saber is a good way to make them jump. Do a couple of fullscreen Sonic Sabers > D teleport crossups and they'll basically be jumping every time they see that projectile. Then you can just dash in and do whatever you normally do air-to-air, or you can be really yolo and just teleport into DP, but that's super unsafe if they read it. It does work though if they've got a canned reaction to jumping over a teleport like Noel j.D.

If it's an opponent you don't want to challenge in the air but you can challenge on the ground, spacing a blocked 5B > Sonic Saber > teleport is a really easy way to get into pressure since that setup is + on block.

Actually, has anyone ever tested how advantageous Sonic Saber > teleport is at point-blank? It should be + but according to frame data it would be like +20 (normally neutral with 40+f recovery versus 20~f-cancelable teleport) and I'm pretty sure it's not that good.

[Errol]

If he's disrespecting your pressure throw out more 2Cs and Sonic Sabers. I started doing that after my friend started mashing Noel 4D against all my GA blockstrings. 2A 2C is a really good string for punishing disrespect once you've got them trained to mash when they expect a GA dash.

Also j.C isn't supposed to straight-up beat out AA moves, SKD is talking about using it at max vertical range to beat out slightly late AAs (because the hitbox is lower than the hurtbox) forcing them to time their presses better.

 

No...

 

jC reaches deep vertically and has a lot of active frames. Used correctly it completely shits on Rachel's 6A. Because you can put it out very early, and beat the anti air out of startup if they antiair, while still hitting with the tail end of the active frames if they don't use it.  Is it foolproof, no.

 

It doesn't just 'force them to time their presses better', it *cuts down on the time they have to react to antiair*, making it much harder (or impossible) to antiair on reaction, forcing them to antiair by yomi, not by reaction. If you try to antiair on reaction, you get counterhit.

 

so Yeah, J.C is an amazing jump in. I hardly try to contest it with Rachel because it is a losing game to do so.

[crimsonstardust]

I'm probably late to the party on this but I just found out that the rejump loop is, like, ridiculously easy off 3C. Normal starter > 3C 236B~214A 5C j.BAAC 5A etc. requires no specific delay timing whatsoever (you can just mash it out) and the old j.delayB, delayAC combo now works on characters whom it didn't work on before.

So yeah, 3C is funny.

I tested this out, so I think 5C did get fixed for Izayoi cause I was able to hit Amane with it now, but using jBAAC doesn't work on everyone but makes it easier for some I guess, found it easier to do jBAAC on Azrael with this.

On the note on tech I did find a safe jump set up that doesn't use strike fall in the corner.

Normal starter (jC 5B 5C) 3C(optional) 236C~D 2C(2) 5C 2C(1) 236B 214A 3C 236B 214C 66jB. This is a little weird, cause if you do jB late it will safe jump, at the height where you can hit jB off off 66 it will safe jump against any invincible reversal slower than 6 frames, I couldn't safe jump against Terumi cause his triple kick super starts in 4 not to sure if you can safe jump it with a delayed jB, forgot to test that, and it will beat mashing, I haven't tested this against armored moves that people like to wake up with but I would imagine you can safe jump them. Either this works or I'm full of crap.

[Justice7541]

Yeah, dash j.B is always a safejump if done low and early enough. Speaking of corner setups, I wonder GA 3C 236B~214A 3C 236B actually works, it'd be good for a short starter combo that doesn't consume stocks since you're not really gonna get any damage off it anyway.

[RoanYagyu]

Oh

[skd]

If the character has a good AA Sonic Saber is a good way to make them jump. Do a couple of fullscreen Sonic Sabers > D teleport crossups and they'll basically be jumping every time they see that projectile. Then you can just dash in and do whatever you normally do air-to-air, or you can be really yolo and just teleport into DP, but that's super unsafe if they read it. It does work though if they've got a canned reaction to jumping over a teleport like Noel j.D.

If it's an opponent you don't want to challenge in the air but you can challenge on the ground, spacing a blocked 5B > Sonic Saber > teleport is a really easy way to get into pressure since that setup is + on block.

Actually, has anyone ever tested how advantageous Sonic Saber > teleport is at point-blank? It should be + but according to frame data it would be like +20 (normally neutral with 40+f recovery versus 20~f-cancelable teleport) and I'm pretty sure it's not that good.

 

The recovery is indicative of total duration (hence the T following the number).

I tested this out, so I think 5C did get fixed for Izayoi cause I was able to hit Amane with it now, but using jBAAC doesn't work on everyone but makes it easier for some I guess, found it easier to do jBAAC on Azrael with this.

On the note on tech I did find a safe jump set up that doesn't use strike fall in the corner.

Normal starter (jC 5B 5C) 3C(optional) 236C~D 2C(2) 5C 2C(1) 236B 214A 3C 236B 214C 66jB. This is a little weird, cause if you do jB late it will safe jump, at the height where you can hit jB off off 66 it will safe jump against any invincible reversal slower than 6 frames, I couldn't safe jump against Terumi cause his triple kick super starts in 4 not to sure if you can safe jump it with a delayed jB, forgot to test that, and it will beat mashing, I haven't tested this against armored moves that people like to wake up with but I would imagine you can safe jump them. Either this works or I'm full of crap.

soutenjin is 7f startup, actually. The fastest reversals in this version are 7f, excluding 720's (which safejump loses to regardless).

Yeah, dash j.B is always a safejump if done low and early enough. Speaking of corner setups, I wonder GA 3C 236B~214A 3C 236B actually works, it'd be good for a short starter combo that doesn't consume stocks since you're not really gonna get any damage off it anyway.

~214A 3C needs a high hitting 236B, so 5C 236B or 2C(1/2) 236B.

[crimsonstardust]

I probably didn't time the safe jump right when I had Izayoi on record for it not to work on Terumi, I think I read the frame data wrong for Terumi didn't realize it was 4+3 on start up. Well back to the lab to find more goodies for Izayoi.

[Myoro]

So is it still Izayoi gameplay discussion if I want to know from you all how to fight Izayoi?

 

Knowledge of when to respect her, and when and how to disrespect her would be super valuable to me!

 

I play Relius, who on paper has the advantages, but as a rarer character Izayoi seems to hold all the cards when I fight her. Can someone tell me the obvious holes in her blockstrings that I can fit a 32 frame invincable dodge, a 6 frame jab, a frame 7 invulnerable anti air, and a super obvious low reaching DP into?

 

Heck, any weaknesses I can exploit aside from the obvious, "don't let her get stocks" would be nice.

 

Thanks for any help! ^_^

 

(I figure this could be just as appropriate on the Rel MU threads, but no one there knows as much about Izayoi as you all might.)

[crimsonstardust]

Izayoi doesn't do well under pressure she needs meter to get out of trouble other than that Izayoi players have to make the right read with 6A cause that armors against high and mid attacks but doesn't have armor right away. Teleports are not safe at all if done raw, if you see a sonic saber being used to cover a teleport be ready to block it. It's really easy to disrespect hover dashes in gain art mode if they are trying to go yolo with hover dash jC and such. Izayoi does better if the opponent is scared to hit buttons in GA mode, she has ways to do from things like 5B stance cancel into hover dash jC, or pressure with 5B again. In general 5B is her main poking tool and is generally safe and be kept safer with sonic saber 236C and stance canceling.

So in the case where your under pressure, be ready to block standing a lot, she has lots of tricky ways to overhead people and if done right she can fake them and go low. She's got a pretty good air throw so if you do chicken block against her be ready to tech that cause she can mask a fake overhead hover dash by whiffing air throw and go low like that.

Now I'm no Relius expert but I think if you see her try to zone you out you can counter zone with that new move he got where he calls a gear from the ground, this should force her to come at you, I know I had to when that forced me to stop zoning. A lot of sticking normals to stop her is mostly going to be when she tries to hover dash overhead you really.

Well hopefully that helps.

[Myoro]

Ah thanks for the info! it was immediately helpful. ^_^