[CP1.1] Valkenhayn Gameplay Discussion

[Kakimori]

I guess, but I always thought the w.5C > w.j.B > w.j.B > w.B > j.B > j.B > j.C ender looked really cool, and now I guess we won’t see it much anymore. Plus I’m just starting to learn him more seriously, and with this and the 6B > 5C/3C loss, we’re literally losing every good combo of his that I know so far

Does 2C > 6B > 5B > 5C > 236C launcher work now that the 6B > 5C gatling is gone?

Did we lose the w.j.6C > D movement now that D is brake as well as form change?

And is there anything I should practice in CSE that will carry over to CP?

RE air wolf cannons, I don’t really understand why the pros take such a risk then…you don’t always see Lambda fishing for CH with 236C or Tsubaki with 3C.

[Dreize]

You'll still see it, just not as often. w[5B] still launches on aerial hit.

Plus I’m just starting to learn him more seriously, and with this and the 6B > 5C/3C loss, we’re literally losing every good combo of his that I know so far

Hah, that's not even half of it amigo. You should have seen how bad it was early on for us. I will admit, I was a tad worried at first. Luckily, a few of our nerfs were universal and the new wolf normals ended up being better than expected.

Arcsys was kinda playing with fire when balancing Valkenhayn, and luckily we didn't get burned.

What I mean is, without those 2 new wolf normals we are unquestionably the worst character in the entire game. But with them, we are actually quite a solid/strong character. We're certainly not even near Extend Valkenhayn status, but that really doesn't matter anymore. Besides, Extend Valkenhayn needed balancing.

Does 2C > 6B > 5B > 5C > 236C launcher work now that the 6B > 5C gatling is gone?

Not to my knowledge, no.

I speculated that 6B > 2B > 2C > 236C, etc would work but I have yet to see it. I've mostly seen 6B > 2B > 5C > 236B~236B.

Did we lose the w.j.6C > D movement now that D is brake as well as form change?

No, we didn't. We still have the wolf break system as well.

And is there anything I should practice in CSE that will carry over to CP?

Honestly, just practice Extend combos; a lot of general rules/concepts will carry over. Neutral stays pretty much the same as well (aside from drive/wolf meter changes), so get that down. And if you'd like, feel free to upload some of your play and post it in the critique thread, I'm sure that either myself or Kiba would be happy to evaluate your play.

[Kiba]

I speculated that 6B > 2B > 2C > 236C, etc would work but I have yet to see it. I've mostly seen 6B > 2B > 5C > 236B~236B.

I've actually been meaning to mention this for a while. I haven't seen the 6B > 2C > 236C route at all, and it makes me wonder because the corner carry is well worth it. I would've thought it'll be the superior option.

Honestly, just practice Extend combos; a lot of general rules/concepts will carry over. Neutral stays pretty much the same as well (aside from drive/wolf meter changes), so get that down. And if you'd like, feel free to upload some of your play and post it in the critique thread, I'm sure that either myself or Kiba would be happy to evaluate your play.

Pretty much this.

[Dreize]

I've actually been meaning to mention this for a while. I haven't seen the 6B > 2C > 236C route at all, and it makes me wonder because the corner carry is well worth it. I would've thought it'll be the superior option.

Well, 6B > 2C never worked in Extend either unless you're talking about a 6B FC.

I wouldn't be surprised if 6B > 2B > 2C > 236C doesn't work anymore though. We only ever used the 2C > 236C route for a few things in Extend. We used it when the 6B in 2C > 6B > 236C would whiff, and we used it when we wanted to keep the proration low-ish (usually involving a rapid cancel somewhere in the combo).

I mean, Kiba. We both watch a tonne of CP Valkenhayn play, yet none of us have seen it. I guess it's safe to assume that we lost that gatling as well.

Even off of a h[j.C] I've been seeing j.C > 2B > 5C > 236B~236B instead of j.C > 2C > 236C.

[Kiba]

I omitted the 2B from my combo by mistake, so that's my fault. Sorry.

I concluded that it may be the case where 2C > 236C no longer works in CP but I don't ever recall seeing/reading 2C suffering from a decrease in hitstun, or 236C having slower startup. Anyway this is all speculation and I guess we really wouldn't know till we get the game.

[Kakimori]

I will do that! But I feel like I want to improve some of the fundamentals I know I need to work on first so I'm not just wasting everyone's time on silly stuff.

So how does the w.6C > D rehuman work now that D is brake then? What do you input?

[Shyn]

In CP, D is both transform and dash. So, when you're a wolf, 5D will transform to human, while 6D works like 5C/6C in Extend. Braking took everyone a bit to figure out, caus it's done by inputting 2C now.

For my two cents on "what to practice".... Like Kiba/Dreize said, practicing Extend combos won't be a waste of time. It'll just kind of help you feel more comfortable with Valk's moves as well as teach you some combo routes that are basically the same in CP.

I think the most important thing to do, especially if you're new, is just play games with people. Play against the best people you can find and ask lots of questions. Also, practicing movement would be worthwhile. Not only is it virtually the same in CP, it's also a skill that you won't really have playing other FG characters. Similarly, try to use wolf mode a lot. Most people sit in human way too much when they first start. Practicing human offense/blockstrings will also (mostly) carry over. Wolf offense, on the other hand, has been changed a bit, but you'd still gain from practice, just like with combos.

Random tip for the transition that gave me problems in CP: Try to make sure the stick is always in neutral when transforming back to human. Since only 5D is transform in CP, you'll get an unintentional wolf-dash otherwise. Everyone was accidentally doing this after airdashing when it first came out. XD Edit: I just read that you play on pad. This probably won't be as big of an issue for you, heh. (Although if you're serious you should probably switch to stick for Valkenhayn! )

Edited June 4, 2013 by Shyn

[hipikachu]

I just read that you play on pad. This probably won't be as big of an issue for you, heh. (Although if you're serious you should probably switch to stick for Valkenhayn! )

He used to play Valky with the Vita's analog as I stared in horror.

EDIT: Never mind, I misread, didn't realize you were addressing Kakimori. I have a bad habit of not reading previous pages of a discussion. Too much content.

Edited June 4, 2013 by hipikachu

[Shyn]

Wait... So who were you talking about?

[hipikachu]

Wait... So who were you talking about?

Dreize. He pulled of the daring feat of using the Vita's analog and complained about j.236236C not coming out.

[Kiba]

Random tip for the transition that gave me problems in CP: Try to make sure the stick is always in neutral when transforming back to human. Since only 5D is transform in CP, you'll get an unintentional wolf-dash otherwise. Everyone was accidentally doing this after airdashing when it first came out. XD Edit: I just read that you play on pad. This probably won't be as big of an issue for you, heh. (Although if you're serious you should probably switch to stick for Valkenhayn! )

Yea I think this is going to be the biggest issue for all/most of us once we start haha! On a side note I do find wolf control much easier to handle on stick.

[Dreize]

Yea I think this is going to be the biggest issue for all/most of us once we start haha! On a side note I do find wolf control much easier to handle on stick.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. Drive change is going to be extremely awkward week 1. And so is wolf meter management to be quite honest, remember watching week 1 CP Valkenhayn play? Everyone was losing their wolf meter and people kept using command grabs in order to supplement. Hah.

Wolf control on pad feels stiff-ish, I don't prefer it.

Additionally, I can't use the wolf break IOH on pad as well. Unless I put two hands on the face buttons, or if I put C on one of the triggers (which is really awkward). If I could assign the same command to more than one button it would be fine, but I can't.

I omitted the 2B from my combo by mistake, so that's my fault. Sorry.

I concluded that it may be the case where 2C > 236C no longer works in CP but I don't ever recall seeing/reading 2C suffering from a decrease in hitstun, or 236C having slower startup. Anyway this is all speculation and I guess we really wouldn't know till we get the game.

No worries.

I just can't believe that absolutely no one does it. It seems like something that would be obvious. Plus we've seen that combo routes which involve nacht rosen do good damage in CP.

[Kakimori]

Dreize, you're not Dreikoo online, are you?

[Dreize]

I'm not Dreikoo.

[Kakimori]

Oh, OK. Thought you might have been the same person, with the "Drei" factor and all.

[Kakimori]

I know it's probably just me being terrible, but it feels like Ragna and Litchi are really bad matchups. Ragna's moves outrange and outspeed most of what we can do in human form, and cover such a wide range of the screen (with Hell's Fang for example) that it can be dangerous to move around with wolf. Litchi's staff hinders my wolf movement a lot too.

Lambda, Jin, Rachel, Relius, Carl, Makoto, Hazama, and Taokaka feel pretty even or in our favour, though it can be really tough to connect with Taokaka sometimes.

[Kiba]

What troubles me more with Ragna is his normals which makes it difficult to approach him, especially if the player is patient. He also has strong defensive options too making certain wolf mixups really risky to use against him. Litchi can be a bad matchup for the reason you've stated.

Lambda and Relius are definately in our favour. Lambda has to rely more on her normals than her drives in this matchup, because we can easily get around it. You can w[66D] her sickle storm and spike chaser and if done early and close enough you can get a hit on her or get her blocking. If you react late to Sickle Storm she will most likely try to 6D/2D you. With Relius you can punish him for summoning Ignis, and getting in isn't hard. However, I feel that Rachel and Taokaka are momentum based, as the match is dependant on who gets the first hit. I can't comment on the others, but Jin doesn't feel so bad.

[Dreize]

Ragna is one of those characters that is just a pain to fight in neutral. Whether it be 5B, j.C, even random Hell's Fang, etc he just tends to have good range/big hitboxes on a lot of his stuff.

I've been known to play this match-up really slow against competent Ragna players, as approaching him can be risky.

Litchi on the other hand, can be a pain to fight as well. Her staff is easily the most annoying aspect about her for us. When used properly, it can quite honestly partially cripple our neutral game. She also has a DP, which essentially means that she can get out of certain things that a DP'less character may have trouble with (Nacht Jager, certain wolf mix-up, etc). Additionally, she also heavily benefits from Valkenhayn's lack of defensive options. Do not get put into the corner when against a strong Litchi player. Thirteen orphans oki will absolutely destroy you (I've seen it happen on numerous occasions against strong Valkenhayn players such as Hima), and she can keep doing it over and over again. Unlike, say, Hakumen who she can't actively use thirteen orphans oki on due to zanshin related complications.

Anyhow, I wouldn't say that these two match-ups are absolutely terrible for us; but they certainly aren't particularly good.

The Jin match-up is essentially this. j.236D/tk.j236D x N <---- You will come to truly despise this move, I assure you. Hah.

The Makoto and Lamba match-ups are probably in our favor though.

though it can be really tough to connect with Taokaka sometimes.

Yup. I'd say that Makoto, Rachel, Taokaka and Hakumen have some of the most frustrating hitboxes for us.

[Kakimori]

I don't think Hakumen's hitbox is too bad, but his air game is definitely better than ours and I feel like I have to rely on wolf a lot because human is so predictable that he can get a counter off quite often. Makoto and Rachel I don't think are bad in neutral...good spacing is definitely the key point/hard thing about playing against Rachel, but if either of them get you into serious pressure, it can be hard (at least for me) to defend.

Taokaka vs. Valkenhayn matches just look like two crackheads spazzing out :/

[Dreize]

Try doing w[5A > 5B > IAD > j.B > 3C > j.A] > 5D > 2C > 6C on Hakumen.

The 2C may whiff, this is due to Hakumen's odd/weirdly compressed aerial hitbox. This is especially prevalent on long-ish range w[5A] confirms. It can be done though, it's just a bit harder and you need to adjust accordingly.

Hakumen can zanshin you out of wolf mix-up as well, every 50/50 you do is also a 50/50 on his end. The thing is, wolf mode is much faster than human mode; so most people tend to get thrown off.

When fighting Rachel, watch out for the pumpkin. That thing is irritating at times. Her 6A is quite good as well, so keep that in mind when performing jump-ins.

You can low profile Makoto's DP with 2B.

[Kakimori]

I feel like it's easy to just 4C a counter-happy Hakumen for a combo, though. The next time, or maybe the time after that, they'll be a little more wary about pressing D and you can open up a little bit. But in human mode, almost every gatling you have is dangerous as hell, and 5C/j.C are pretty easy reads.

The dangerous thing for me is getting in with wolf mode, since he can swat me out of the air like a fly if he times me right.

I need to use more 2B footsies!

[Dreize]

You have to remember though, it's a two way street. Combos that start from human normals tend to do massive amounts of damage, while combos that start from wolf normals are much more tame in comparison.

So it's definitely risky for him as well. Baiting zanshin with w[4C] (not sure why you would do that in the first place though) and getting a w[j.A] confirm into 2k midscreen is nice and all, but baiting zanshin and punishing with something such as h[2C] leads into 5.5k meterless midscreen. And unlike wolf mode, human mode pressure is much less mash-like.

Playing neutral with wolf mode in the Hakumen match-up is recommended. You just have to be careful.

If you see him doing j.2C, attempt to cross under him and w[5B] him. Watch out for j.B and don't use too many aerial beast cannons as his j.C will swat you out of them on start-up. For jump-ins, if you believe that he is going to 6A/5D; use w[7C] to bait. Or, just perform an empty jump-in.

Running around in wolf mode is a really strong option in this match-up especially since he lacks proficient mobility options, but remember that you're sitting on a slowly depleting meter and that your normals are lackluster in terms of horizontal range; so play it smart.

[Dreize]

Might as well attempt to stimulate some discussion. Suuya made a CP tier list. Thoughts, anyone? This whole "S+" thing gets funnier every time I see it.

S+: Tao, Valk, Litchi

S: Hazama, Jin, Hakumen

A+: Rachel, Relius, Mu

A: Azrael, Carl

B: Everyone else (That's Arakune, Bang, Bullet, Makoto, Noel, Nu, Ragna, Tager and Tsubaki)

B-: Platinum, Amane

C: Izayoi

[Kiba]

Tier list discussions don't go well with me because I particularly don't pay them much attention, so I'm gonna have to sit this one out. They usually don't end well either, so in the event where people wish to talk about it in the wrong end, prepare to face my wrath.

[Dreize]

I honestly can't blame you.