[CP1.1] Valkenhayn Gameplay Discussion

[Kakimori]

I'm surprised that Tao is supposedly at the top and sad that Izayoi is supposedly at the bottom. That is all.

(Edit: Also happy that Tsubaki is finally considered to be in the "everyone else" tier )

Honestly, the differences between tiers in a well-made fighting game like this are very small. 99% of the time, it'll come down to skill.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Kakimori

[50-50罠]

I think tiers are pretty upholding. They seem to stand up pretty solid when you look at tourney results, so why people try to argue them I don't know. You can say " well it's a matter of skill ", however what level of skill are you mentioning, and if the players are equal then the character with better move set, mixup and damage 95% of time is winning. At least from all the footage and data I've observed. I'm a lowly BB player so I don't speak much about it, however seeing Valk S+ on any tier list with HG & damage nerfs out the ass seems a little premature, and so far just raises both eyebrows... haha I can't wait to actually play CP to see if I take to CP Valk well.

Now there're some instances in MU's where tiers don't apply. An example from 3s would be Dud V Alex or even Ryu V Dud. Alex has a clear advantage on Dud despite Alex's placement on the tier list. All this means is that Dudley's move set can't do much about the others move set. This is just a small tid bit on my take on tiers. So I hope no one gets offended or anything. Tier discussion just leads to a dead end street so I don't talk about them much. At any rate I do hope more damaging combo are found quickly. I'm not really satisfied with the ( at least from looking at the vids ) damage output so far. I mean 2 - 3k off bnb stuff just makes me smh. I'm really upset about the damage nerf off 6C starter that's my favorite starter to land. I could've dealt with the damage nerf so long as I at least had that lol. I understand most of the cast got cut backs in the damage department, but it wasn't quite like Valks lol.

At this point I don't really know how I feel about the changes Valk for the most part seems like an entirely new character with the nerfs. So I have to just wait and play him for myself before I can really say if I'm pleased with the changes or not. I am happy for more wolf normals, however I think 5A being low should've stayed and the new 5c could've been left out. The command change for wolf grab was a smart decision to prevent input errors. I'm gonna going fiddle around with the new Rasen Wolf movement, and the wolf brake I don't understand the input Kiba put down for it at all, so whatever on that.

Edited June 19, 2013 by 50-50罠

[Dreize]

I'm a lowly BB player so I don't speak much about it' date=' however seeing Valk S+ on any tier list with HG & damage nerfs out the ass seems a little premature, and so far just raises both eyebrows... haha I can't wait to actually play CP to see if I take to CP Valk well.[/quote']

Yeah, this is the conclusion that I've come to as well.

I mean, it's just silly. Slight mix-up nerf, substantial damage nerf, huge meter gain nerf, because of meter nerf his defense was also nerfed, lost a few important gatlings, etc, etc. He did gain a few new things though, but the nerfs far outweigh the buffs.

Obviously tiers are almost entirely relative to other cast members, but I just don't see it. Perhaps I'm missing something here.

Valkenhayn was already S tier in Extend. And now, with a busload of nerfs; he suddenly becomes S+ tier in CP? The fact that Suuya made that particularly tier list also makes me chuckle a tad.

Anyways, we'll see what happens I guess. And to be honest, I'm perfectly fine with his final changes. I will admit, I was a tad worried initially.

[Shyn]

I dislike tier discussions. So I won't be here long.

But I'd like to say that comparing a character in the new game to its counterpart in the old game can be problematic. Without a firm grasp on the way the new game works, it's difficult to accurately analyze how the changes will effect them. And by "how the new game works" I mean more than just system changes. The changes to the way other characters work matters at least as much. Combine that with the fact that most characters look nerfed from the the perspective of Extend, and I think it's very reasonable that Valkenhayn could hold a higher position relative to the whole cast.

Also, for what it's worth, from my time actually playing CP Valkenhayn (and watching videos), I feel like he's at least as strong, if not stronger, than before. (And by strong I mean how well he fares against the rest of the cast. Not some worthless absolute measure of strength.)

[DJ_Blactricity]

Everyone of you is missing the fact that what makes Valk such a strong character is his neutral, normals and his corner carry from practically any hit all of which lead into knockdown. Valk's strong oki and mixup complement that. The damage nerf was deserved. He did too much damage meterless, and even when he used meter it would be gained back in the same combo.

[mAc Chaos]

Valkenhayn was already S tier in Extend. And now, with a busload of nerfs; he suddenly becomes S+ tier in CP?

That's what happened to Hakumen.

[Errol]

Doesn't valkenhyne still have exceptional meter gain, just not totally fucking retarded meter gain?

[BladeOfJustice7]

Not to mention his mixup is still nigh-unblockable. As long as he can open up his opponents defense with relative ease and keep them on edge during during and defense, he'll always be a good character.

[Dreize]

He is a good character in CP. Who on earth is denying that? Certainly not any of us, as far as I can tell.

I think it's very reasonable that Valkenhayn could hold a higher position relative to the whole cast.

I agree. Somewhere in the A- to A+ tier range.

Everyone of you is missing the fact that what makes Valk such a strong character is his neutral, normals and his corner carry from practically any hit all of which lead into knockdown. Valk's strong oki and mixup complement that. The damage nerf was deserved. He did too much damage meterless, and even when he used meter it would be gained back in the same combo.

We do know why Valkenhayn is a strong character, frankly; it's quite obvious. And in-case anyone is unaware, his corner carry was also nerfed due to the w[5B] not launching change. He still has solid corner carry, though.

His damage and meter gain did deserve a nerf. I've been saying this for quite a while now. Again, is anyone denying this?

As long as he can open up his opponents defense with relative ease and keep them on edge during during and defense, he'll always be a good character.

Perhaps, sure. That theory certainly holds true in CP, as he is still a good character. Also, not sure what you meant by "them on edge during during and defense". I'm going to assume that you meant to say "them on edge during defense", feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean 2 - 3k off bnb stuff just makes me smh. I'm really upset about the damage nerf off 6C starter that's my favorite starter to land.

2-3k isn't bad at all in, you won't be seeing 4k+ too often though during tournament play (I myself have only seen Valkenhayn reach 4k+ a small handful of times, and this is coming from someone who watches a busload of CP Valkenhayn footage); which is perfectly fine with me. 5k meterless off of 6C in Extend was a bit silly. And unless they gave 6C a pretty substantial P1 buff in CP (which they didn't) the overall damage potential off of it was undoubtedly going to drop, which it did.

But, to take a look at the bright side. 6C is now +5 on block for whatever reason, as opposed to Extend's +2.

[DJ_Blactricity]

I stated what made Valk such a strong character because you were talking about his tier placement while looking at his nerfs. The way meter gain works is a system change which means you can't really call it a nerf without comparing his meter gain to the rest of the cast. His damage also has to be compared to the rest of the cast before calling it a nerf. In my opinion, his mixup wasn't really nerfed. The loss of gatlings after 6B doesnt really matter since it's +8 anyway. I would argue that his defense actually remained the same even with the change to meter gain. Yes, we won't be able to counter assault as much, but that doesn't matter since we shouldn't have been relying on that anyway. It just forces players to learn how to use the system defences properly. My point is none of his nerfs actually affect what makes him strong in the first place.

[Dreize]

I stated what made Valk such a strong character because you were talking about his tier placement while looking at his nerfs.

I will admit, perhaps I was being a bit too nihilistic. But in truth, I wasn't trying to be. I was just assessing/evaluating our current CP Valkenhayn. No matter how I sound via text, I am not complaining. In-fact, I'm quite content with the nerfs/changes and happily welcome CP Valkenhayn. I'm so glad that our wolf mix-up isn't just A mash anymore as well.

The way meter gain works is a system change which means you can't really call it a nerf without comparing his meter gain to the rest of the cast.

The "universal" meter gain nerf isn't truly universal since Hakumen managed to zanshin that nerf and turn it into a buff. So in a sense, it's an "almost-universal nerf". But, in truth, no matter how you look at it in relation to Valkenhayn. A nerf is still a nerf, that is undeniable. Valkenhayn's meter gain was nerfed to about 1/3rd of what he used to obtain (roughly), which is partially due to the fact that beast cannons now give around 1 meter as opposed to 6 per use.

Now, whether or not his meter gain nerf actually effects his meter gain tier among the other cast members is an entirely different story.

His damage also has to be compared to the rest of the cast before calling it a nerf.

Same principle applies here.

In my opinion, his mixup wasn't really nerfed. The loss of gatlings after 6B doesnt really matter since it's +8 anyway. I would argue that his defense actually remained the same even with the change to meter gain. Yes, we won't be able to counter assault as much, but that doesn't matter since we shouldn't have been relying on that anyway. It just forces players to learn how to use the system defences properly.

The loss of gatlings after 6B (in addition to the fact that it doesn't force crouch anymore) do effect him. Perhaps not as a pressure tool since it retains it's absurd +8 on block, but as a combo tool most definitely. After a 6B you'll mostly be seeing 6B > 2B > 5C > 236B~236B nowadays as opposed to something that uses 236C (by the way, combos that involve 236C seem to do a good amount of damage in CP) such as 6B > 5C > 236C, etc. Also, it seems as though we have lost 2C > 236C as well, but we can't properly confirm this yet.

Na, his wolf mix-up was nerfed. But it's still quite good. Losing a 6 frame low that chains into itself 3 times most definitely outweighs a 10 frame low and a new slow-ish overhead.

To be quite honest, as long as he has the wolf break w[j.A] IOH and a serviceable low in wolf mode his mix-up will always be strong.

His defensive options stayed the same (they still suck) but their applicable usage in practical situations has obviously been shrunk due to his meter gain nerf (this applies to everyone else of course, aside from Hakumen). You're right, you shouldn't be relying on CA's or reversal sturm wolf, but that doesn't mean that they don't have there uses; albeit a bit situational at times. Also, in-case you don't already know; konig flug's damage was reduced (it's minimum damage was cut in half from 40% to 20%) alongside sturm wolf's.

My point is none of his nerfs actually affect what makes him strong in the first place.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. While the few aforementioned things you mentioned are most definitely apart of what makes him strong, a few things are missing.

For instance, in Extend I could list one of his strong points as "He hits like a truck" whereas in CP that is simply not true (it may also be important to note that characters such as Litchi, Jin, Hazama, etc are now doing more damage than him as well).

The same thing can be said about the almost-universal meter gain nerf.

And to expand on the meter gain nerf, Valkenhayn's human mode pressure/mix-up without meter is far from lengthy and somewhat laughable. j.C > rapid > j.C fuzzy set-ups were extremely ambiguous in Extend (a 15 frame IOH which led into 4k with corner carry is pretty scary).

Additionally, 236A > rapid cancel set-ups into things such as:

-2C > 6B, etc

-2C > 6C, etc

-2B > 5B, etc

-5D > 236D, etc

were also a core part of our human play.

And, we lost important gatlings and a 6 frame low that chained into itself 3 times. And yes, of course we did gain new things, but once again; the nerfs far outweigh the buffs in my opinion. I mean, if "absurd damage, absurd meter gain, absurd mix-up, important gatlings, etc, etc" weren't apart of what "makes him strong in the first place" than I certainly don't know what does.

I feel as though I may be repeating myself a tad, so please do try and forgive any redundancies within my argument.

[DJ_Blactricity]

Yeah, this is the conclusion that I've come to as well.

I mean, it's just silly. Slight mix-up nerf, substantial damage nerf, huge meter gain nerf, because of meter nerf his defense was also nerfed, lost a few important gatlings, etc, etc. He did gain a few new things though, but the nerfs far outweigh the buffs.

Obviously tiers are almost entirely relative to other cast members, but I just don't see it. Perhaps I'm missing something here.

I am not arguing what makes Valk strong in CSE. The reason I even made my first post was to state what you were missing in the quoted post. You are too focused on what we lost from CSE.

[Keech]

I do not know where to post it: cse gimmick blocktring:2A, JC j.C, j.214B, 2D, W[j.a land 214D]

Edited July 3, 2013 by Keech

[Dreize]

Has Kiba been sharing his blockstrings? Hah. I kid, I kid.

No worries, this is the right place to post it. It may be added to the guide as well, who knows.

[hipikachu]

W[j.a land 214D]

w[214D] Halp.

[Kiba]

236D I assume Keech means.

I, used to use that blockstring around the early EX stages, but it's much more effective to simply use a blockstring such as 2A > w[236D]. Consider the weaknesses too. This first blockstring can lose to mashing.

The 2A > JC j.C > j.214B > 2D > w[j.a > land 236D] can lose to mashing, the j.C can lose to AAs and can even lose to air throws depending on how early/late you used it. The blockstring can even be substituted with something like 2A > j.D > 3D > w[j.a > land 236D]. In no way am I stating that the blockstring you submitted is bad Keech, and I thank you for providing it. I'm only saying there are more effective alternatives.

Personally my blockstrings tend to be quite short and involves a lot of wolf commands, such as the 2A > j.D > 3D > w[j.a > land 236D] example I provided. Because of this I barely use 6C and it's something I've noted. I also rarely use 6B in blockstrings, as I mainly use it for tech traps. Other blockstrings I use involve:

-2C > 3C/6C

-Jump cancellable normal (2A/5B/2C) > j.D > 3D > w[(j.a) > IOH j.A/land 236D] - I try to avoid an overeliance on this because I don't want my opponents to mash out.

-5B > 2B > 3C

-2A > Dash > 2A > purple grab

-2A > Dash > 6C

Speaking of blockstrings I forgot to mention something a while back. I have updated the blockstrings section in the Valkenhayn Strategy Guide with thanks to Dreize. In addition, I've just linked Kin Tager's Arc Revo match against RYO. Enjoy.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Kiba

[hipikachu]

The 2A > JC j.C > j.214B > 2D > w[j.a > land 236D] can lose to mashing, the j.C can lose to AAs and can even lose to air throws depending on how early/late you used it.

I could've sworn that my 5A loses to 2A>rising j.C on multiple occasions. Maybe it's just me. Still, if I guess wrong, 5A loses to w[236D] and 2A loses to j.C easily. These 50/50s are friggin terrifying. Not to mention I can count the number of times my 2C "anti-air" actually worked in my favor on the fingers of a single hand.

Yes Dreize, I AM referring to that pathetic beast cannon clash yesterday. And NO, I have not gotten over it

[Kiba]

Kinda read over Keech's post and realised what he meant, derp. When I saw JC I immediately thought of a gap. Now I understand the blockstring that Keech is referring to, and your 5A will always lose to it. You also can't throw him or AA it.

If you scored a jc j.C CH it's harder to mash against w/e Valk is going to do next. Sorry Keech, that was totally my misunderstanding. So yea, I s'pose why not.

[hipikachu]

Now I understand the blockstring that Keech is referring to, and your 5A will always lose to it. You also can't throw him or AA it.

It's not fair~

[Keech]

I looked at my for several replays, and about 20 Hima's. I have found that usually opponents ALWAYS (I saw about 24! burst after j.c) make an burst after j.c RC j.c(burst when you try 3c for example, or immediatly after second j.c) in one of the videos ​​Hima made second j.C very low and deal safejump and he punish burst.

I apologize for my English. m(_ _)m In Russian with no difference in what parts of the proposal are the verb and the noun :\

[hipikachu]

I looked at my for several replays, and about 20 Hima's. I have found that usually opponents ALWAYS (I saw about 24! burst after j.c) make an burst after j.c RC j.c(burst when you try 3c for example, or immediatly after second j.c) in one of the videos ​​Hima made second j.C very low and deal safejump and he punish burst.

I apologize for my English. m(_ _)m In Russian with no difference in what parts of the proposal are the verb and the noun :\

Burst 6C so you can get baited and then cry some more.

But on a more serious note, every kick Valky lands tends to pack a punch (ironic, eh?) When nearly all human starters go into 3k+ minimum meterless with oki, some people (like me) get predictably eager to reset the momentum of the match. It doesn't take too many mistakes for Valky to blow you up.

[Dreize]

Personally my blockstrings tend to be quite short and involves a lot of wolf commands, such as the 2A > j.D > 3D > w[j.a > land 236D] example I provided. Because of this I barely use 6C and it's something I've noted. I also rarely use 6B in blockstrings, as I mainly use it for tech traps. Other blockstrings I use involve:

-2C > 3C/6C

-Jump cancellable normal (2A/5B/2C) > j.D > 3D > w[(j.a) > IOH j.A/land 236D] - I try to avoid an overeliance on this because I don't want my opponents to mash out.

-5B > 2B > 3C

-2A > Dash > 2A > purple grab

-2A > Dash > 6C

Speaking of blockstrings I forgot to mention something a while back. I have updated the blockstrings section in the Valkenhayn Strategy Guide with thanks to Dreize. In addition, I've just linked Kin Tager's Arc Revo match against RYO. Enjoy.

I usually tend to focus on 6B more so when my opponent doesn't barrier guard all too often. Since it has quite a few active frames it's good for building up wolf gauge and for frame traps. However, if the opponent does barrier guard quite a bit normals such as 6B, 5C, 2C, 6C, etc become far less useful and should not be abused.

6C is really good up until people learn how to block/mash out of/anti-air obvious 25 frame standing overheads that gatling into nothing.

The three universal strings that I probably use the most are:

- 2B > 5B > 3C/6C

- 2A > 2A > j.C > Rapid Cancel > j.C

- 2A > 5D > w[236D]

Kin Tager did so well in the first round, ah well.

I looked at my for several replays, and about 20 Hima's. I have found that usually opponents ALWAYS (I saw about 24! burst after j.c) make an burst after j.c RC j.c(burst when you try 3c for example, or immediatly after second j.c) in one of the videos ​​Hima made second j.C very low and deal safejump and he punish burst.

I apologize for my English. m(_ _)m In Russian with no difference in what parts of the proposal are the verb and the noun :\

Yeah, delaying the 2nd j.C isn't a bad idea. People I face usually tend to burst around the 3C > 236A area though.

Yes Dreize, I AM referring to that pathetic beast cannon clash yesterday. And NO, I have not gotten over it

Oh well.

[hipikachu]

6C is really good up until people learn how to block/mash out of/anti-air obvious 25 frame standing overheads that gatling into nothing.

Cut it some slack. At least it's an anti-low that has good proration, fatals, and has amazing meterless corner potential. If we all saw everything in your eyes, Tsubaki would never get a hit in. Block my Noel's overhead more often and I'll fall for less 6Cs.

[Dreize]

It being an anti-low is a double edged sword since it can be anti-aired, it having fatal counter properties is next to irrelevant since there is no added benefit combo wise, sure it has good meterless corner potential (as do pretty much all of Valkenhayn's human starters, I wouldn't give all the credit to the normal itself; give credit to Valkenhayn's damage output/p2 values). Not to mention the fact that it leads into nothing midscreen even with meter, has a crap-ton of pushback on barrier, and gatlings into nothing. It's also slightly slower than Noel's 6B.

That isn't to say that no one should be getting hit by 6C though, don't misconstrued this statement. If I truly thought that nobody should ever get hit by it I would never use it.

Even if I failed to block a 90 frame overhead every single time on netplay it still wouldn't change the fact that people shouldn't be getting hit by 6C as often as they do. And to be honest, I'm not too bad at blocking Noel's 6B. Not sure what you mean by that, but I hardly play against your Noel.

The truly scary overheads are w[j.A], IOH w[j.A], and j.C > Rapid Cancel > j.C. 6C is just okay, and it being just okay is the reason that you don't see it being used all that often at high levels of play.

Rising w[j.C] in CP is going to be pretty scary as well. Can't wait.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Dreize

[hipikachu]

It being an anti-low is a double edged sword since it can be anti-aired

Not by my 2C after a blocked 5C.

I wouldn't give all the credit to the normal itself; give credit to Valkenhayn's damage output/p2 values).

You mean his character combo rate.