[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Henaki]

I'd rather they reduce character homogenization even if it means scrapping other stuff. Besides, "resetting" from a base happens with a lot of reboots and sequels. Guilty Gear already suffered from some of the most insane power creep of any fighting game ever made.

Also, YRC is a much, much better mechanic, fundamentally, than FRC. Blitz shield worries me, that's the biggest issue I have with other than the speed of the game, which definitely looks slower in some cases (May in general, Sol's movement).

Fundamental aspects of a game should not be hard to execute, period. Blitz shield replacing Slashback and YRC replacing FRC are good choices in my book, assuming Blitz shield isn't dumb. YRC is mostly going to lead into gimmicks and combos, which is fine for a small meter price. I assume there will be edge cases where it leads into blind mixups or huge damage, but that can be tuned.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Henaki

[Destin]

I'd rather they reduce character homogenization even if it means scrapping other stuff. Besides, "resetting" from a base happens with a lot of reboots and sequels. Guilty Gear already suffered from some of the most insane power creep of any fighting game ever made.

Also, YRC is a much, much better mechanic, fundamentally, than FRC. Blitz shield worries me, that's the biggest issue I have with other than the speed of the game, which definitely looks slower in some cases (May in general, Sol's movement).

Fundamental aspects of a game should not be hard to execute, period. Blitz shield replacing Slashback and YRC replacing FRC are good choices in my book, assuming Blitz shield isn't dumb. YRC is mostly going to lead into gimmicks and combos, which is fine for a small meter price. I assume there will be edge cases where it leads into blind mixups or huge damage, but that can be tuned.

I agree with almost all of this. I'm not sure about speed, because speed isn't as important as flow (speed being how fast you move and attack, flow being how often the risk/reward of the game makes you want to make moves). I think BS would be less bs if 2/3 of these happened.

1) Cost 50% meter

2) Didn't absorb projectiles

3) Put the opponent in a recoil state where they could still block. So you took back momentum, but didn't get a free combo.

[Hecatom]

Because from what I understand, a chunk of the design team (including daisuke) was only active up until #R with another team taking over to milk out the franchise. Now that some of these key members came back they want to work off the version of the game they created, rather than an offshoot created by a second team.

I sincerely believe that is not enough reason to throw away the progress that the series made.

Watch how the 1st GGXrd ends with an atrocious balance and many characters being just barely ok if not mediocre due their incompletenes because this absurd decision

I'd rather they reduce character homogenization even if it means scrapping other stuff.

LMAO, homogenization, yeah right...

You seem to have been expending too much time on SRK if you believe that the characters got homogenized with the time

I agree with almost all of this. I'm not sure about speed, because speed isn't as important as flow (speed being how fast you move and attack, flow being how often the risk/reward of the game makes you want to make moves). I think BS would be less bs if 2/3 of these happened.

1) Cost 50% meter

2) Didn't absorb projectiles

3) Put the opponent in a recoil state where they could still block. So you took back momentum, but didn't get a free combo.

LMAO

[SynikaL]

I can understand the concerns of veterans, but from a relative GG newbie perspective - this doesn't bother me. Not because I'm totally unconscious of the "regressive" balance decisions, but because I know I'll be around for the new iterations. I see the first game as a tool to introduce Guilty Gear to a potentially larger market, so keeping things relatively simple is important - as long as the game is fun and not blatantly broken out of the box. The Blue Ocean strategy holds diminishing returns after the first release; so maybe Daisuki and co. can look AC+/+R etc. in future iterations, as those games will be more focused on whatever core market is left. If I had to choose between growing Guilty Gear as a brand and a balanced game with the first release - I choose growing the brand.

Edited November 6, 2013 by SynikaL

[SolxBaiken]

And Potemkin still has the heart effect on Heat Extend, even though he wears mecha-gloves.

Well there's a latch and compartment for it now, Sugoi Engine, ACTIVATE!

Also in Venom's victory display, the ball he throws down says "Dandyism" are the mantra and logo retained from Slayers days as Guild head even after all this time? .o. Oh crap, also didn't notice that Venom even has them on his sleeve o.o

[Henaki]

I sincerely believe that is not enough reason to throw away the progress that the series made.

Watch how the 1st GGXrd ends with an atrocious balance and many characters being just barely ok if not mediocre due their incompletenes because this absurd decision

LMAO, homogenization, yeah right...

You seem to have been expending too much time on SRK if you believe that the characters got homogenized with the time

I don't normally do this anymore, but: no, I spent time actually designing video games you dense shitposting idiot.

</oldhenaki>

Edited November 6, 2013 by Henaki

[Henaki]

I agree with almost all of this. I'm not sure about speed, because speed isn't as important as flow (speed being how fast you move and attack, flow being how often the risk/reward of the game makes you want to make moves). I think BS would be less bs if 2/3 of these happened.

1) Cost 50% meter

2) Didn't absorb projectiles

3) Put the opponent in a recoil state where they could still block. So you took back momentum, but didn't get a free combo.

I really don't understand the mechanic, but from what it sounds like you spend 25% meter for offensive protection, which seems a little too cheap for a universal mechanic. I'm just curious if it has any sort of counterplay, or it's just a super cheap reversal eater. If you can't do it while blocking, it seems to be an easy way to make offensive rushdown really good.

[Destin]

I can understand the concerns of veterans, but from a GG newbie perspective - this doesn't bother me. Not because I'm totally unconscious of the "regressive" balance decisions, but because I know I'll be around for the new iterations. I see the first game as a tool to introduce Guilty Gear to a potentially larger market, so keeping things relatively simple is important - as long as the game is fun and not blatantly broken out of the box. The Blue Ocean strategy holds diminishing returns after the first release; so maybe Daisuki and co. can look AC+/+R etc. in future iterations, as those games will be more focused on whatever core market is left. If I had to choose between growing Guilty Gear as a brand and a balanced game with the fist release - I choose growing the brand.

Actually I think you have it backwards. Me, henaki, 4r5, kbnova, and elven(who to be fair likes ANYTHING guilty gear) are some of the oldest tournament players on the board. I think most of the newer players much prefer the AC route, whereas there is a comparative lean towards a more #R game from the older players (minus mynus).

[Hecatom]

I don't normally do this anymore, but: no, I spent time actually designing video games you dense shitposting idiot.

</oldhenaki>

Yeah because making and designing game makes your opinion automatically correct , oh wait...

http://keithburgun.net/debunking_asymmetry/

[Destin]

I really don't understand the mechanic, but from what it sounds like you spend 25% meter for offensive protection, which seems a little too cheap for a universal mechanic. I'm just curious if it has any sort of counterplay, or it's just a super cheap reversal eater. If you can't do it while blocking, it seems to be an easy way to make offensive rushdown really good.

It seems to me like a large window lenient parry with a tension cost and a long post usage vulnerable window. I'm afraid things will get a bit binary in decisions to bait it, which tends to homogenize choices. I will certainly give it a pass though, everything they are adding to this game sounds FUCKING AWESOME.

[SynikaL]

Actually I think you have it backwards. Me, henaki, 4r5, kbnova, and elven(who to be fair likes ANYTHING guilty gear) are some of the oldest tournament players on the board. I think most of the newer players much prefer the AC route, whereas there is a comparative lean towards a more #R game from the older players (minus mynus).

A Blue Ocean strategy refers to growing the brand beyond the current market. Someone that's never played Guilty Gear doesn't know what iteration of the XX series they'd prefer.

[Henaki]

It seems to me like a large window lenient parry with a tension cost and a long post usage vulnerable window. I'm afraid things will get a bit binary in decisions to bait it, which tends to homogenize choices. I will certainly give it a pass though, everything they are adding to this game sounds FUCKING AWESOME.

Yeah, I'm pretty skeptical still. The other decisions are really sound so far though, they removed the mechanic that sounded terrible last time and managed to revamp FRCs to be more versatile and accessible, which is a good sign IMO.

[TAI-X]

I think it's a given that this will be the "SFIV version" of GGXX. Now, I'm not saying it'll be as slow or degenerate as SFIV (which is clearly not true at this point), but they are simplifying and streamlining a lot of mechanics as well as adding a flashy coat of paint with cinematic cut-ins to make it palatable for new audiences. We will all play and enjoy Xrd a lot, but I think +R will remain the de facto ultimate version of the game.

[Henaki]

I think it's a given that this will be the "SFIV version" of GGXX. Now, I'm not saying it'll be as slow or degenerate as SFIV (which is clearly not true at this point), but they are simplifying and streamlining a lot of mechanics as well as adding a flashy coat of paint with cinematic cut-ins to make it palatable for new audiences. We will all play and enjoy Xrd a lot, but I think +R will remain the de facto ultimate version of the game.

SF4 is not a streamlined game. It's as obtuse as 3rd Strike was, people just drank the marketing kool-aid. Not that I disagree with the flashy coat of paint though.

Xrd strikes me as less obtuse than XX, but XX is a far more obtuse game than Street Fighter is. However, if Xrd releases pre 2015 in America, I have a feeling it will become the strongest non-Capcom pillar like XX was back in the day.

[the_d3v]

SF4 is not a streamlined game. It's as obtuse as 3rd Strike was, people just drank the marketing kool-aid. Not that I disagree with the flashy coat of paint though.

I'd posit that SFIV as a whole is even more obtuse than 3rd Strike due to how the designers added arbitrary execution barriers that were never in 3S. To get somewhat decent in 3S, all you really need to learn in terms of execution are kara-throws and hit-confirm to super. Every thing else is more about reading your opponent. The more executionally demanding stuff like SGGK and/or DED OS is only really needed at the highest levels of play. Compare to SFIV where just to get decent damage off meter you most likely need to learn how to FADC moves into Ultra. Then there's arbitrary one frame links for combos that you need since you don't get as much damage from footsies.

Definitely a case of adding too much actually setting the game back IMO.

Xrd strikes me as less obtuse than XX, but XX is a far more obtuse game than Street Fighter is. However, if Xrd releases pre 2015 in America, I have a feeling it will become the strongest non-Capcom pillar like XX was back in the day.

From what we've seen so far, I think they're doing their best to make it less obtuse and more understandable to non vets. For example, the whole time slow effect (complete with color coded effect and darkened screen) not only makes it easier to do stuff off RCs, but it also alerts anyone watching that something is happening. It's a blatant signal that "hey, this dude is doing something at this point that you should do/not do" depending on the outcome.

As for acceptance, the goal should at the very least beat out MK/Injustice and KoFXIII since those seem to be the most popular games outside of AE and Marvel. That said, this sure as heck ain't happening if the whole scene isn't united.

If anything, folks should follow the example of what the DOA community is doing. As good as 5 and 5U were, the common consensus is that 3.1 is still the best version of the game (and 4 is still absolute shit). That said, you don't see folks there sticking solely to 3.1. No, they know that they're scene is too small for a split. That's why most top players are focusing on playing 5U and building the community for it and you know what, it's working. They've already built up a sizeable SoCal scene and even Uncle Valle has started posting in their forums encouraging them further.

[Destin]

SF4 is not a streamlined game. It's as obtuse as 3rd Strike was, people just drank the marketing kool-aid. Not that I disagree with the flashy coat of paint though.

Xrd strikes me as less obtuse than XX, but XX is a far more obtuse game than Street Fighter is. However, if Xrd releases pre 2015 in America, I have a feeling it will become the strongest non-Capcom pillar like XX was back in the day.

SFIV is also burdened by the number of characters it is attempting to balance.

[the_d3v]

SFIV is also burdened by the number of characters it is attempting to balance.

Because the community is burdened by casuals who don't understand that SF has always been a traditionally match up intensive series with a good number of lopsided match ups. No one wants to put in the time to learn that, they all just want to be able to autopilot their wins with whoever their favorite character is.

[Narroo]

I sincerely believe that is not enough reason to throw away the progress that the series made.

Watch how the 1st GGXrd ends with an atrocious balance and many characters being just barely ok if not mediocre due their incompletenes because this absurd decision

It's their right. If they didn't like where the game went with AC, they have every right to take it in the direction they want it to go, even if you don't like it.

[Henaki]

SFIV is also burdened by the number of characters it is attempting to balance.

Eh, SF4 is the most homogenized game on the market save like, Tekken. That's not really a burden unless you're making GG or marvel style characters with high amounts of uniqueness and power. Capcom is fucking horrible at balancing though lol

[shtkn]

Thanks but i only do it to give back to the community !

Yeah its around 200$... that why i wanted to ask the community but even with the signed art book people seems not interested ^^;

Maybe if i post on several website i will have more people even if i can collect only 100$ i can have the camera and that will help me a lot.

sure, i'll throw in $40 usd. let me know how i can send it to you (paypal?)

[SuperJ]

how are sf4 links any more arbitrary than 3s links?

on topic, i'll pitch in too

[the_d3v]

how are sf4 links any more arbitrary than 3s links?

on topic, i'll pitch in too

Because from what I can recall, they were purposely made 1 frame links whereas previously, most links were for the most part, stuff that people found out on their own. Capcom actually did say that they put in 1 frame links in SFIV as something "for the pros".

[Destin]

Eh, SF4 is the most homogenized game on the market save like, Tekken. That's not really a burden unless you're making GG or marvel style characters with high amounts of uniqueness and power. Capcom is fucking horrible at balancing though lol

It would have to be if you want to attempt to balance it (unless one was actually talented at balancing).

[Aristobule]

sure, i'll throw in $40 usd. let me know how i can send it to you (paypal?)

wow that very nice, h0mebas3 ask me to do a paypal page too, so i made one http://kakkoii.fr/ (i will put more details tomorrow its almost 5am in japan right now...)

As I thought the FGC are great.

[SuperJ]

Because from what I can recall, they were purposely made 1 frame links whereas previously, most links were for the most part, stuff that people found out on their own. Capcom actually did say that they put in 1 frame links in SFIV as something "for the pros".

i can acknowledge that modern capcom is brash enough to make those sorts of statements

however (and this is difficult to put in words), it's not like the "comboability" of attacks is any less deliberate in 3s as opposed to, honestly, any other street fighter

like ken's b+mk doesn't just happen to link into super on crouchers and karakusa fierce doesn't just happen to have tight timing. at the end of the day, they're all execution barriers and anyone who isn't good at linking will surely feel such combos are arbitrary regardless of what game they play or what capcom says. death of the author and all. harada could lie to my face, doesn't make ch d/f+2 ewgf any less arbitrary imo