[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Circuitous]

I have no idea where I should put this or if I should make my own thread, but I've decided to write about aspects of Guilty Gear's gameplay that I have noticed people struggling to understand over the years. I opted for combo discussion first since I get more confusion from people at that than any other subject. Next will be the importance of FD braking and the ability to jump cancel on block.

 

http://pichyandpals.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/lets-learn-guilty-gear-part-1-combos.html

I'd personally advise making a new thread, this one's way too cluttered for anything like this to gain traction.

[Zidane]

Zato's only monster is Ogawa, and he's playing the character wrong. He plays with Eddie as the base, Zato as a complement when the current cast is really good at murdering Eddie and when #R/Xrd Zato is about Zato's strong buttons and Eddie-fueled timing lockdown, with Eddie having relatively weak space control tools compared to AC where Zato's buttons were wimpier and Eddie was a space control monster. Ogawa's style is a perfect fit for AC, not for Xrd.

 

Ogawa is a monster but he needs to retool his play.

 

Link to recent Ogawa vids so we can talk about how shitty his play is?

[Pichy]

Circuitous: I did shortly after I made that post.

[DaiAndOh]

I'm going through ogawa's tweets starting from the tier list. something dai missed out was that he says ramlethal is barely S tier.

I'll check back with translations and summaries once I get through however many characters I feel like. Don't expect too much from me though I'm only doing as much as interests me.

I wasn't sure about where that comment regarding Ramlethal was supposed to go because you know google translate.

Also I had Mynus take a look at the Venom post (he knows Japanese and I love Venom) and it's as far as he said, Venom/Chipp stuff is not about Venom's advantage over Chipp (I'd fight Ogawa if he said that :P), but Chipp info being that he has lots of "bs" stuff, doesn't have to block, but Chipp's j.hs, as powerful as it is left/right, can be Blitzshielded easily since in the input is 5S+HS

[greatfernman]

Also I had Mynus take a look at the Venom post (he knows Japanese and I love Venom) and it's as far as he said, Venom/Chipp stuff is not about Venom's advantage over Chipp (I'd fight Ogawa if he said that :P), but Chipp info being that he has lots of "bs" stuff, doesn't have to block, but Chipp's j.hs, as powerful as it is left/right, can be Blitzshielded easily since in the input is 5S+HS

ooooooohhh the last bit was still referring to chipp ok. that makes way more sense now. I separated the two in my mind because ogawa decided to go and put an emoticon in-between them. thank you based chaz

after rereading it, I think the blocking part is saying venom has to block chipp though, not that chipp doesn't have to block.

[DaiAndOh]

ooooooohhh the last bit was still referring to chipp ok. that makes way more sense now. I separated the two in my mind because ogawa decided to go and put an emoticon in-between them. thank you based chaz

after rereading it, I think the blocking part is saying venom has to block chipp though, not that chipp doesn't have to block.

Venom kinda has to pretty much block everyone if they touch him since he has 0 reversal tools, even with meter. Maybe it's in reference to Chipp getting around Venom easier than every other character since the beginning of time though.

[CCVengeance]

That's not how it's read...

The least you could do is point out why its wrong instead of leaving me with questions. But no need since others pointed it out without having to qoute me.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Anybody versed in Japanese willing to translate the tweets regarding Sol? Some online translation services gave me an inkling, but still pretty unclear...

[king of heart]

Link to recent Ogawa vids so we can talk about how shitty his play is?

That's because you live in your small nico nico and YouTube world.

Ogawa is still a monster and seeing him play against Karinchou's Ramlathal last week is the biggest evidence!

[Kieofire]

That's because you live in your small nico nico and YouTube world.

Ogawa is still a monster and seeing him play against Karinchou's Ramlathal last week is the biggest evidence!

 

You need to pay attention to the context of what Zidane is saying, it was pointed to the dude saying that Ogawa is playing Zato wrong to show proof to back up his point. 

[D.R.F.]

That's because you live in your small nico nico and YouTube world.

Ogawa is still a monster and seeing him play against Karinchou's Ramlathal last week is the biggest evidence!

King, can you kinda explain the way ogawa plays then? Other than him there isn't really a zato above rank 13 I think

[Jourdal]

The second ranked Zato is one named Shachou..who's been playing him for years actually. He's about 15th dan. They seem to be the only "good" Zatos.

Couple other 14th dans and then the rest are under 13. http://ggxrd.com/pg/ranking_view.php?mode=exe&type=psr_rank&pref=&character=zat&pref=0

[D.R.F.]

The second ranked Zato is one named Shachou..who's been playing him for years actually. He's about 15th dan. They seem to be the only "good" Zatos.

I dont mean that they are bad if they arent rank 15 and up (in fact, any rank 10 is pretty good) but there aren't "wow" zato players being seen is all. Sorry if it sounds kinda dumb but thats what it seems like

[greatfernman]

Anybody versed in Japanese willing to translate the tweets regarding Sol? Some online translation services gave me an inkling, but still pretty unclear...

I speed read the one on sol and ky and it looks like he's saying sol has dropped in rankings; sol has a bunch of good matchups but none he dominates. ky has better neutral, sol has better damage and setplay.

[king of heart]

You need to pay attention to the context of what Zidane is saying, it was pointed to the dude saying that Ogawa is playing Zato wrong to show proof to back up his point.

It's funny that a guy comes up with a play style, set ups and combos and other people are just copying him then say that he doesn't know how to play.

The guy is the best Zato/Eddie player hands down.

As for how he play:

While other Zato players practice set ups and combos and just do it.

Ogawa plays naturally and can easily react and adjust his set ups and even comes up with new stuff depending on the situation.

Also he definitely the best when it comes to protecting little Eddie and controlling him.

And according to ElvenShadow who is more skilled player than me and a have a very good Zato match up experience: compared to other Zatos Ogawa doesn't have any hole in his gameplay.

[D.R.F.]

Well shit. No wonder other zatos look not as good-.- I forgot ogawa was a zato-1 mary sue lol. Thanks for the info king

[Mumm-Ra]

Didn't melon use eddie too? At least that's other person.

can somebody with lock powers make a thread to collect all the pro player's tier lists into?

[Anne]

Didn't melon use eddie too? At least that's other person.

can somebody with lock powers make a thread to collect all the pro player's tier lists into?

If you wanna make a tier list thread we won't stop you

[Zombies8MyLeg]

While other Zato players practice set ups and combos and just do it.

Ogawa plays naturally and can easily react and adjust his set ups and even comes up with new stuff depending on the situation.

Also he definitely the best when it comes to protecting little Eddie and controlling him.

And according to ElvenShadow who is more skilled player than me and a have a very good Zato match up experience: compared to other Zatos Ogawa doesn't have any hole in his gameplay.

That's actually really interesting. I always see videos of him, but never actually observe his playstyle that much. 

[Mumm-Ra]

If you wanna make a tier list thread we won't stop you

oh okay, I was just asking since tier list threads are such a touchy matter in the forums, and for good reason.

[Anne]

oh okay, I was just asking since tier list threads are such a touchy matter in the forums, and for good reason.

If it gets wild I'll just lock it. I'm willing to give it a shot, would dilute some of the tier/power level talk out of the already cramped and weird general thread. I'll add the general rule of, "Talk about tiers and characters' positions in them. Do not discuss how useful you personally find tier lists(i.e. 'tier lists don't matter', keep that shit out of here) and don't be a crybaby about character placement."

[D.R.F.]

^ this will be interesting

[TheRealBobMan]

Regarding Dual Shock 4:  I've used one plenty.  The Dpad is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the PS3 Dpad.  The buttons are closer together, so you don't feel this significant dead zone where the diagonals should be, and the buttons are beveled inward which feels better on your thumb.  I don't really play BB, but in the contexts where I can use a DS4 to play games, that's the game that's around.  I can get difficult combos to work with Izayoi on a DS4 that I can't get at all on a DS3, most of which involve her DP input moves.  If I had to play pad, I'd want a DS4.

 

 

Ogawa's Tier List:  Was kinda surprised about his I-No placement until I remember that he plays Zato/Eddie.  That matchup is generally in I-No's favor.  Like, even in AC where I-No has nothing but bad matchups, and Eddie can convert 1 hit into a knockdown into an unblockable into a 6P loop into a dizzy (because it's I-No) into an IK, the matchup is STILL a 50/50 in I-No's favor.

 

That said, Ogawa was talking about a bunch of stuff that we don't have fully translated, and some of the advantages that I-No has in that matchup aren't even as good in Xrd (she can dive over his stuff, but doesn't get to combo off of starter dives anymore, for example), so it's probably not matchup bias.  "Destroy fuzzies" is confusing.  I wonder if he's saying "destroy with fuzzies" regarding her j.D FDC.  Considering that j.D adds 8 frames of landing recovery, even when FDC'd, it's not as strong as a mixup as you would think, though it leads to unreactable overheads.  It's just super high risk to feint into a low, and since 2S isn't a low anymore, most situations where you'd jump cancel into j.D FDC for the instant overheads are situations where you can't go into lows anyway (off of 5K or c.S).  There's a reason why I-No barely used it in AC even though it was there.  You still have it off of j.S though, and U-Zen has been using it frequently to great effect, as well as for some nice baits.  I'd really like to know what he's saying about VCL YRC though.  I see people get opened up by that all the time.  I think that they're timing the screen freeze right before wakeup ends to mess with reversal timing.  Since HCL/VCL starts on 11 and is active for 11... you do it early enough and it's totally safe against reversals (if they don't **** up) while being meaty for oki mixup and giving you enough time to punish a backdash.  You can also use it in situations where Note isn't as strong because of positioning.

 

 

RE Venom:  It might just be the association between +R Venom and Xrd Venom that puts "weak" into people's minds.  They're pretty similar, though Xrd Venom has some improvements before we even get to the systemic changes (like YRC), which are pretty good for him.  Venom has more room to convert random hits into stuff with RC than other characters, on top of being able to bait the other player to move around to avoid a ball, then YRC to punish the movement (and again, possibly **** up the input that would allow dodging a ball with the screen freeze).

[Coffeeling]

@Ogawa talk

 

I have not once claimed that ogawa sucks. The man is a monster and I said as such in the first post. Playing "wrong" does not preclude one from being a monster. All I have said is that he could (and IMO, should) retool his style to align better with Xrd Zato's strengths to become even more monstrous. Everyone knows Ogawa is the undisputed master of little Eddie use -

 

To illustrate the point:
FAB. We all agree Pochumpkin is a suboptimal strategy in Xrd. Yet FAB is a monster and just destroys people. If we applied that same argument to claims of Potemkin being bad, they'd all be invalid because FAB is so good. That doesn't make sense.

Second example: Daigo Umehara vs. Infiltration from EVO 2012 top8 to Mad Catz Unveiled. Here we saw an absolute monster, a legend of the genre lose consecutively, over and over, in the same repetitive pattern. Some people - me included - brought up mistakes they thought Daigo was making in the matchup, while others shouted us down because clearly Daigo just knew better and if he played that way that's because he had to and had no choice. The Ryu-Akuma matchup was abundantly clearly lopsided in Akuma's favour, in their minds. Yet those claims just didn't make sense. Ryu and Akuma were evenly enough matched in the areas that mattered in the matchup for those claims to be sensible. Yet Daigo lost, again, again, again. No one he didn't know his character. If anyone knew their way around those two characters in the neutral game, it was Daigo and Infiltration.

 

Then Mad Catz Unveiled rolled around, and Infiltration got torn to shreds in one of the worst curbstomps in the game's history. Why? Because Daigo finally found those things that were wrong in his conception of the match and fixed them. He implemented many things people pointed out would've been beneficial like standing far enough away that Infiltration couldn't just focus dash into combos when he threw fireballs, and threw a couple surprises of his own into the mix, like the way he used DPs to get subjected to less mixups and get chanced to land Ultra without spending meter. The saved meter then did work on further cementing his newfound edge in the footsie game. He had been wrong for months, but now he slew his demon with ease.

 

Would anyone have said "Daigo sucks"? No. Daigo was clearly a monster, and a very knowledgeable monster at that. But even knowledgeable monsters can be wrong, as he himself proved. This is why I don't buy arguments like "Look, idiot, Ogawa is thiiisss much better than your sorry ass so clearly you're wrong". It's an appeal to authority with no reason behind it. It's empty, just shouting someone else down for daring to have an opinion. I have a pair of eyes and a functional brain, and I'm going to use them, sorry.

 

 

[Amadeus46Art]

And that's a real nice story, but you still haven't shown any proof as to why Ogawa is playing wrong.