[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[D.R.F.]

Yeah it's funny that last week every match was in a completely separated video.

also Roi achieved a great accomplishment today, he gained my respect.

:0 yoo what he do

[Jakestation]

:0 yoo what he do

 

He managed to beat Ogawa once.

[Blade]

Not until Pot is AC tier again and we get forcebreaks back

 

Mike Z is gone for good, methinks.

 

GG's movelist history really tells you Forcebreaks were just a pie in the sky idea to get older moves back in the list (I'd say EX mode is better suited to that role).

 

In reality, every move should be useful and not be meter reliant (efficient, not redundant).  RCs and Dead Angles should be the only thing you use meter for in most situations.

 

Ky has better tools now without Forcebreaks, Sol too.  I'd say Potemkin's more of a beast now too since he can Hammerfall YRC and get in close (which is tons better than Judge Gauntlet).

[D.R.F.]

Mike Z is gone for good, methinks.

GG's movelist history really tells you Forcebreaks were just a pie in the sky idea to get older moves back in the list (I'd say EX mode is better suited to that role).

In reality, every move should be useful and not be meter reliant (efficient, not redundant). RCs and Dead Angles should be the only thing you use meter for in most situations.

Ky has better tools now without Forcebreaks, Sol too. I'd say Potemkin's more of a beast now too since he can Hammerfall YRC and get in close (which is tons better than Judge Gauntlet).

Be careful about what you say about Pot. Force break Pot Buster was a POWERFUL part of his game for combos, and any Pot player will tell you that. The nerfing of non-fb moves (2S, Heat Knuckle, etc.) Turned pot into the struggle he is in Xrd. But ima stop talking about that since others can explain it better.

[Synyster17]

He managed to beat Ogawa once.

 

he must be the best there is then

[sren]

http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/co2042230 guess 3 on 3 at Nagoya startin' soon

[king of heart]

he must be the best there is then

Not really.

Nakamura has higher win rate against Ogawa but not more than 50%.

Roi really worked hard to get this one win after losing many many times.

[TheRealBobMan]

At the risk of putting words in his mouth (which I don't mean to do), Mike Z doesn't care about Pot's nerfs compared to how much he dislikes the implementation of YRC.  It's dumb that they removed most of the game play refinements that they spent years on (like Force Breaks), but what he likes the least is how YRC enables option selects.  The example he cites most is Sol running in for Wild Throw and whiffing because the other guy read him and jumped, then YRCing the Wild Throw and air throwing the guy with the time slow that YRC gives him.  With the slow down there's not a whole lot you can do to get out of the way, and you wont be able to get a hitbox out in time either.  It's worse than the Sol player getting away safely when using Wild Throw at the wrong time - you're being punished for making a read on him because he had 25% to spend.  There's also the Burst Bait OS that you can use when between 25-49% by doing most of your inputs with 3 buttons, accounting for input priority.  So his argument is that the game is less about making reads, which is why he's so opposed to Xrd.

[BladeOfJustice7]

^Aka moral victory.

 

That moment when you're playing someone you know who is vastly better than you, and that any slight mistake on your end you know means certain defeat. But you're too heavily invested in beating him on that very night so you keep playing him, regardless of the 20+ game winstreak he has on you and others. Then when you finally get to hand him the single big L he has of the night after winning 25+ games, you feel like you just did the impossible.

 

Good old fighting games, and their stories.

[badgerfan20945]

I didn't know that you could YRC a whiffed command grab, considering that you don't get YRC during the recovery of a move. With most of the footage I've seen you would think that more people would be doing it.

[TheRealBobMan]

The thing is that you can YRC during active frames.  Command throws are unlike regular throws because they have a few active frames, so if you whiff on the first frame, you can still YRC.

 

There are videos of it.  I remember seeing plenty of examples of YRC'd command throws in the early footage (many examples of I-No using her new command throw and YRCing it).  The active window for most command throws isn't that big, so maybe there's the risk of getting PRC if you don't have FRC-tight timing (or YRCing before active), which costs more meter and doesn't give you the time slow advantage.  There would also be the risk of RCing the command throw if you actually grabbed the other player, which in most cases is a waste (either you spend the meter when you don't need to, or you wind up dropping the throw before you do damage).  If you don't want to risk that, you'd only use it at 25-49% meter, which would make it less frequently used.

[Circuitous]

So when i started to talk about increasing numbers of Millia players and discussing her gameplay compared to other characters.

The first replay was from a mod saying.

"Yeah she is hot though"

So how do you except regular members to behave ?

It was a good reason. It's why I'd pick her if I was just picking someone up at random. I wasn't attempting to discuss her design, I was discussing a reason she might get picked.

Do people really not see the difference?

[king of heart]

It was a good reason. It's why I'd pick her if I was just picking someone up at random. I wasn't attempting to discuss her design, I was discussing a reason she might get picked.

Do people really not see the difference?

 

That's exactly what i meant.

 

Some members here want's to contribute out of a good will but their lack of knowledge make them post meaning less stuff that are totally unrelated to game play.  

[D.R.F.]

The thing is that you can YRC during active frames. Command throws are unlike regular throws because they have a few active frames, so if you whiff on the first frame, you can still YRC.

There are videos of it. I remember seeing plenty of examples of YRC'd command throws in the early footage (many examples of I-No using her new command throw and YRCing it). The active window for most command throws isn't that big, so maybe there's the risk of getting PRC if you don't have FRC-tight timing (or YRCing before active), which costs more meter and doesn't give you the time slow advantage. There would also be the risk of RCing the command throw if you actually grabbed the other player, which in most cases is a waste (either you spend the meter when you don't need to, or you wind up dropping the throw before you do damage). If you don't want to risk that, you'd only use it at 25-49% meter, which would make it less frequently used.

Yrc also has startup, so it is not completely fool-proof either.

[Mumm-Ra]

I wasn't attempting to discuss her design, I was discussing a reason she might get picked.

Go to zepp museum to discuss about this please.

[White Man]

At the risk of putting words in his mouth (which I don't mean to do), Mike Z doesn't care about Pot's nerfs compared to how much he dislikes the implementation of YRC.  It's dumb that they removed most of the game play refinements that they spent years on (like Force Breaks), but what he likes the least is how YRC enables option selects.  The example he cites most is Sol running in for Wild Throw and whiffing because the other guy read him and jumped, then YRCing the Wild Throw and air throwing the guy with the time slow that YRC gives him.  With the slow down there's not a whole lot you can do to get out of the way, and you wont be able to get a hitbox out in time either.  It's worse than the Sol player getting away safely when using Wild Throw at the wrong time - you're being punished for making a read on him because he had 25% to spend.

 

If you believe Sol is coming at you to attempt a command grab, there are several ways of dealing with it that are objectively better than jumping.  I like Mike Z, but I think he decided he wasn't going to like Xrd before he ever played it.

 

 

GG's movelist history really tells you Forcebreaks were just a pie in the sky idea to get older moves back in the list (I'd say EX mode is better suited to that role).

 

In reality, every move should be useful and not be meter reliant (efficient, not redundant).  RCs and Dead Angles should be the only thing you use meter for in most situations.

 

I think it would limit the gameplay somewhat if you got rid of super moves entirely.  Forcebreaks added an extra layer of strategic depth to characters' movesets.  I understand why they removed them in Xrd, but I don't think their inclusion in AC/+R was a detriment to the gameplay; quite the opposite, actually.

[king of heart]

If you want a Force Break just YRC into a good move.

I am not joking YRC Fafnir is Sol's best whiff punisher.

[TheRealBobMan]

If you believe Sol is coming at you to attempt a command grab, there are several ways of dealing with it that are objectively better than jumping.  I like Mike Z, but I think he decided he wasn't going to like Xrd before he ever played it.

 

While I agree with Mike's assessment of YRCs (I don't really like the idea YRC during active frames either), I also agree with your statement.  He came over and played with me at E3, for what I'd assume was his first experience with the game.  That's the impression I got from him then.  He complained about Pot's throw range and damage being worse (recently confirmed to be the same numbers, though range could be a little different with the change to models from sprites).  He complained about Trishula having little purpose after I helped him confirm that it's not strike-invul.  I hate going off of memory, but I'm pretty sure (like 95% sure) I asked him "what if it's projectile invul?" which he didn't seem to care about (and which was recently seen in that one vid where FAB used Trishula YRC PB against a Ky's CSE oki).  He complained about 5P whiffing on crouching and the lack of vacuum on 2S (everyone bitches when their character gets nerfs, so this is an easy one to forgive).  I remember he complained about Hellfire when I brought up the vid of Pot (pretty sure it was FAB) doing 90% on a Venom.

 

He can like what he wants and dislike what he wants.  He'll either play Xrd with us, or he'll stick to exclusively playing +R with us.

 

 

Oh right, I agree with your statement about Mike Z, but not necessarily about "objectively better than jumping".  Some characters don't have a Reversal to use, and if they did, it'd probably lose to VV, which he could potentially throw out.  If you're in the corner, VV would also catch backdash.  1-frame jump + faultless can be one of the safer options, but like any other time in a fighting game, you have to make a read (and he could always just jump and attempt an airthrow to beat the jump instead of spending meter).  If you're in the corner, the situation is significantly worse.  He could go for regular throw with 5K OS to catch backdash and jump attempts, and while the reward wouldn't be as big as Wild Throw if you had stayed on the ground, the risk is much better than VV.  Poking out could lose to 5K's startup if he wasn't in range.  He could always just frame trap some more with c.S > 2S or 6P > 2S, which would catch you poking out in most cases.  Other options that deal with Wild Throw can still lose to his other option selects.  That's why it's a game about making reads, and why it's silly that this mechanic removes some of the decision making process.

 

So yeah, you jumped to deal with Wild Throw, and got punished even though it's generally a valid option.  Now it's more like "I gotta YRC to create a bigger gap to escape with, or to preemptively deal with his YRC".  The decision now involves meter chicken and the game becomes more resource management than it used to be.

 

 

 

It's a shame to lose some of the tools that Force Breaks offered, but some of them were getting kinda crazy good, while others were just kinda necessary to function (which then reduced the amount of meter that was used on other things).  FB Note, FB Drill, and FB Disc come to mind, though Eddie still has unblockable options without the FB drill so he's fine, and Millia's new Disk hits twice with nerfed start-up so it's kind of in the middle.  I-No didn't really need FB note, it was just stupid good.  Didn't Johnny need Jackhound for mid-screen confirms, and Anji relied on his ForceBreaks for his bigger damage right?

[White Man]

Oh right, I agree with your statement about Mike Z, but not necessarily about "objectively better than jumping".  Some characters don't have a Reversal to use, and if they did, it'd probably lose to VV, which he could potentially throw out.  If you're in the corner, VV would also catch backdash.  1-frame jump + faultless can be one of the safer options, but like any other time in a fighting game, you have to make a read (and he could always just jump and attempt an airthrow to beat the jump instead of spending meter).  If you're in the corner, the situation is significantly worse.  He could go for regular throw with 5K OS to catch backdash and jump attempts, and while the reward wouldn't be as big as Wild Throw if you had stayed on the ground, the risk is much better than VV.  Poking out could lose to 5K's startup if he wasn't in range.  He could always just frame trap some more with c.S > 2S or 6P > 2S, which would catch you poking out in most cases.  Other options that deal with Wild Throw can still lose to his other option selects.

 

I can't disagree with any of that, but you're wandering pretty deep into theory fighter territory.  Anyone can react to anything if they know it's coming.  The only point I was trying to make is that if Sol is charging you in what you suspect is an attempt at a throw, jumping isn't necessarily your best option — and certainly not your only option.  Mike Z is allowed to think whatever he wants, including not liking the game because it just doesn't feel right to him.  Nobody is required is provide indefensible justification for their personal tastes in entertainment.  I'm just saying that condemning the game for supposedly being badly designed because it has option selects in very specific situations is kind of silly.  That's the sort of thing you criticize if you're trying to invent a seemingly objective reason for not liking something.

 

 

It's a shame to lose some of the tools that Force Breaks offered, but some of them were getting kinda crazy good, while others were just kinda necessary to function (which then reduced the amount of meter that was used on other things).  FB Note, FB Drill, and FB Disc come to mind, though Eddie still has unblockable options without the FB drill so he's fine, and Millia's new Disk hits twice with nerfed start-up so it's kind of in the middle.  I-No didn't really need FB note, it was just stupid good.  Didn't Johnny need Jackhound for mid-screen confirms, and Anji relied on his ForceBreaks for his bigger damage right?

 

FB Jackhound was useful in certain situations, primarily as a tool for positioning.  Whether or not he needs it for confirms, I don't know enough about the character to say for certain.  I know some players spend most of their meter on that move while others almost never use it.  Can't say one way or the other for Anji — I don't play him and haven't seen enough footage of people using his FBs to fully understand their utility.

Slayer is the best example I can think of for a character with FBs that compliment their move set without dominating it.  His FBs were very useful, but not always necessary for maximizing damage.  They were a tool at the player's disposal that were viable yet optional, and I think Slayer is slightly less interesting to play without them.

[LockedAndClush]

FB's were cool, but Arc seems to really want to direct the meter usage to RCs, so it's no wonder they're not here. In the end, YRCs appear to give characters more interesting and varied options than simple stronger special moves.

[DaiAndOh]

The thing is that you can YRC during active frames.  Command throws are unlike regular throws because they have a few active frames, so if you whiff on the first frame, you can still YRC.

 

There are videos of it.  I remember seeing plenty of examples of YRC'd command throws in the early footage (many examples of I-No using her new command throw and YRCing it).  The active window for most command throws isn't that big, so maybe there's the risk of getting PRC if you don't have FRC-tight timing (or YRCing before active), which costs more meter and doesn't give you the time slow advantage.  There would also be the risk of RCing the command throw if you actually grabbed the other player, which in most cases is a waste (either you spend the meter when you don't need to, or you wind up dropping the throw before you do damage).  If you don't want to risk that, you'd only use it at 25-49% meter, which would make it less frequently used.

 

I don't think there's risk of PRC. You can just do it asap after the throw. The YRC/RC won't come out if the command throw is successful because the animation just started. And if it's not, you're sure to get it.

 

Yrc also has startup, so it is not completely fool-proof either.

It's only 6 frames. In the specific case of jumping, that doesn't mean much.

[king of heart]

I don't think it's that good i only saw it once.

[Mumm-Ra]

Yeah I like this new RC system. Before it was like "dude your RC has to be BLUE not RED you fucked up!". Now with this system Purple is the "save your ass" color, and Red is basically the "confirm any hit into good damage" color, while yellow is the setup and gimmick color. Now each has its uses, I think it's good.

I do understand why some people would dislike the slowdown, but I've already gotten used to it (without even playing the game even).

[MasterXDrake]

I hope we get some new news soon. 

[TheRealBobMan]

I like the slowdown for YRC at neutral, and I think it also works with projectiles pretty well (I like what Venom can do with time slow RC on random ball hits and YRC for space control).  Time slow on RC is awesome and I love that, so that shouldn't change.

To tell the truth, I wouldn't be opposed to time slow during active because it keeps the flavor of being able to cancel almost anything at any time.  However, I feel like it should be Purple at that point, and I also think Purple shouldn't have so much startup/cooldown/whatever.  I don't like that Purple almost seems like a punishment for missing the Yellow window, and I'd probably like it if there wasn't a screen freeze on it to telegraph it so strongly (which will give it back some use).  Being able to cancel active frames for 25% and be rewarded with time slow is what feels like it's too much.

 

I can't disagree with any of that, but you're wandering pretty deep into theory fighter territory.  Anyone can react to anything if they know it's coming.  The only point I was trying to make is that if Sol is charging you in what you suspect is an attempt at a throw, jumping isn't necessarily your best option — and certainly not your only option.  Mike Z is allowed to think whatever he wants, including not liking the game because it just doesn't feel right to him.  Nobody is required is provide indefensible justification for their personal tastes in entertainment.  I'm just saying that condemning the game for supposedly being badly designed because it has option selects in very specific situations is kind of silly.  That's the sort of thing you criticize if you're trying to invent a seemingly objective reason for not liking something.

 

Yeah, the burst bait OS at 25-49% is somewhat situational, but you can always spend meter to keep yourself in that range.  It's just... is it worth doing that and not having access to supers, dead angles, RC, etc?  In most cases it isn't.  It's just that it's something you should probably always be doing when you're in that range and they have a Burst stocked because it takes no mental effort and it makes otherwise non-safe combos Burst safe.  Stuff like that doesn't need to be there, but it's by no means a deal breaker.

 

As for the theory fighter thing, yes, that's what I'm going for.  The issue is that any character will have various options to cover another character's various escape options, so there's a decision tree.  Adding YRC into the mix gives the attacker even more options to cover their ass because they can change their mind after committing to active frames, and they get rewarded with time slow for it.  The only real way to counter the time slow is with time slow of your own, so now we're playing meter chicken.  If they get in range, you can probably use a regular throw/airthrow since those are instant (we should check to see if throws have startup during an enemy RC/YRC when the game releases), but the opponent will probably try to prevent you from doing that.  It's kind of inexpensive for what you get, which is why I like the idea of increased cost and reduced reward.  But again, I only played the game at E3, and haven't been playing the game for the entirety of last year like some of the people in this thread.  There might be a better way of doing it.  I'm also only considering the game we have now.  If the cancel mechanics change with the next revision, those changes I proposed might be worse given new characters or any other new mechanics.