[P4AU] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "TIME TO MOVE"

[Doonpa]

Patch notes were misinterpreted with respect to how many traps you can have out on the screen. In P4U, you could have up to 4 traps in total ( 2 D, 2 C traps). This was nerfed in P4U2 where you can only have a maximum of 3 traps in total, BUT in return you can set up to 3 of the same trap instead of just 2. 

[Ichipoo]

Patch notes were misinterpreted with respect to how many traps you can have out on the screen. In P4U, you could have up to 4 traps in total ( 2 D, 2 C traps). This was nerfed in P4U2 where you can only have a maximum of 3 traps in total, BUT in return you can set up to 3 of the same trap instead of just 2. 

How did I just notice this?

 

Anyway just watched Denpa's stream a today and for a bit, he worked on punishing SLab's (Asterius) DP with 5AA > hold back > block DP > Shadow Frenzy > go ham midscreen. Pretty interesting stuff, if only I remembered the inputs of the crazy combos he was doing. 

[viazoma]

Patch notes were misinterpreted with respect to how many traps you can have out on the screen. In P4U, you could have up to 4 traps in total ( 2 D, 2 C traps). This was nerfed in P4U2 where you can only have a maximum of 3 traps in total, BUT in return you can set up to 3 of the same trap instead of just 2. 

Never noticed that. Thanks for the info!

[Kaimon3500]

air fang is pretty helpful overall; makes air conversions easier, gives her another overhead option, and gives her damage and corner carry in combos, especially in shadow frenzy.

It also gives her a good way to option select against late techs in certain situations with trap oki.

 

Ah, thanks, I was even thinking about overhead possbilities. I was just asking because I hardly see any Naotos use it unless they get a launch AOA midscreen or something

[Syklone]

Margret too OP

[Shadow_BCE]

am i still really noob with Naoto or she really dont have any anti-air normal/special ? her c.B is completely 101% useless for anti-air purpose

[Ichipoo]

Her 2B has gotten better but you still shouldn't consider it as a "get out of jail" card as properly spaced air normals can still hit her. This is where 236C/D comes in as they can anti-air opponents that are still somewhat high in the air, it has to be an early call out though IIRC.

[TheHitmarkersPro]

236C is a really good call out vs Marie, cleanly beats j.C and gives you space to 4/5/6D.

Personally vs characters with good air normals(Shos' j.B, Adachi j.C, etc) I tend to wait until i can make a good 236C call out because 2B is risky.

236C is higher risk but higher reward since it poisons and can add some damage while you're in neutral on its hit.

[Zeromus_X]

So what are Naoto's options vs the throw/fuzzy jump OS? I guess jump back jC? Only played against a couple players who actually do the OS, but it is a bit discouraging to play against without knowing options against it.

[RoanYagyu]

based off the inputs I'd guess delayed 5aa for normal or delayed 2a for both. Idea being to catch the 7 input. I was also thinking since 5aa 5c has a gap to it that might work but I'm not entirely sure.

[Zeromus_X]

I think if they do the OS properly they never leave crouching blockstun so staggers don't work against it iirc. I'm still a bit fuzzy (har har) on the details though.

[RoanYagyu]

Well iirc vs narukami 5a lion/throw mixup the os will have them jump/tech the throw and airthrow the lion. So in that case he should be able to toss in 5A delayed 2B as a way to blow up the os and get the other options back. That's what I was thinking with the late 5c tho I could be wrong diarmuid probably has a better grasp on the fuzzy idea though and some way to beat it

[Syklone]

Try 5AA into B fangs. It might blow it up. But mixed up and delaying block strings should get it.

[Ichipoo]

Anybody care to explain throw/fuzzy jump OS to me please?

[Syklone]

Anybody care to explain throw/fuzzy jump OS to me please?

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9522-lordknight-explains-defense-and-defensive-option-selects-in-p4u2/?hl=lordknight

[Doonpa]

vs Fuzzy jump, Naoto has ways to deal with opponents trying to do this on defense a lot. With the case of OSs, if your opponent does not mix up which OSs they are using to selectively counter your offense, you'll probably kill them hard once you get a read on what they are trying to do.

 

These are the ways i've found to beat the OS so far, but when and where they get hit depends solely on the points at which they attempt to OS with 17C+D1. 

 

Basically, you have to pressure the opponent as if they were just trying to upback you. So things like 5A delay A, 2A delay 2A, 5A delay 2AA, 5AA slight delay 5C, stuff into delayed sweep, etc. are all example strings that you can use to stop fuzzy jump. The opponent should use that particular OS generally in points in your pressure where they think you'd potentially throw them or where you'd bait a reversal. By choosing to strictly fuzzy jump, they probably won't be looking to mash you out, roll, or DP. Its a safe option that covers many things you can do to them on offense, but it does cause them to forfeit some options IF and ONLY IF they choose to only do fuzzy jump. If you read that doc carefully, you'll see there are many other OSs such as DP Throw, Roll Throw, Short Hop Throw, Backdash Throw, etc. If you combine those OSs along with fuzzy jump and the traditional defensive options such as mashing and blocking, you'll have to change your offense to constantly counter your opponents defense. 

[Ichipoo]

Someone translate this please haha.

白鐘直斗

-各種『狙撃』が撃ち分けが早くなり、C版の最終段が跳弾するようになりました。

-D版『ベノンザッパー』の発生が早くなり、追撃可能になりました。

-しゃがみCがガード時でもキャンセル可能になりました。

 

EDIT: Tried to translate them with whatever little knowledge of Japanese I have and it seems like she has some small buffs?

 

-5th C shot ricochets? Interesting

 

-D version of Venom Zapper is faster, can be followed up now. I like this.

 

-2C can now be special cancelled on block.

[Kikirin]

 

白鐘直斗

Shirogane Naoto

-各種『狙撃』が撃ち分けが早くなり、C版の最終段が跳弾するようになりました。

Shooting portion of various snipe stances are faster, C version of final bullet ricochets.

-D版『ベノンザッパー』の発生が早くなり、追撃可能になりました。

D version of Venom Zapper’s startup is faster, possible to follow up after.

-しゃがみCがガード時でもキャンセル可能になりました。

Made 2C cancelable on block.

 

The first item is kinda ambiguous in that I'm not sure whether you can start shooting out of stance faster, or if the startup animation in general is faster.

[ludwig van]

Oh hey an update.

 

5C/2C/j.C should benefit nicely from the C Persona move invuln system change.

 

Hope we can get a clean translation of the changes. But the unmentioned nerfs (to everyone) should add more to make things interesting.

 

If people want a 2.0 discussion thread let me know. (No I haven't forgotten about this board haha)

EDIT:

...

NAOTO:

- Switching between versions of "Snipe" is faster. Final Bullet from C-version is ricochet

- D-version Venom Zapper has faster start-up, combo can now be continued from it

- 2C is cancelable on block

...

[Zeromus_X]

The change to final C bullet is interesting. Hopefully it doesn't mess with any combo enders.

 

D Blight change could be nice. Maybe we could get some meterless poison combos without FC or Berserk.

 

2C change could help our pressure a lot, when mixed up with the charged version. More options are always nice.

[Syklone]

I was thinking 5AAA>D Venom Zapper follow up, maybe?

[Zeromus_X]

On that note, the autocombo change could be a small hit for S. Naoto. Apparently you need to complete the A sequence to get 30 meter, if I'm understanding the changes correctly. So no more Safejump + 30 meter for free. But, the safejump is so nice it'll probably be the best option midscreen anyway.

[Kikirin]

A few items from https://twitter.com/KmsTqTa:

 

 

• Final C shot: (TL kinda shaky) Reflects off the top of the screen, reflects off the side of the screen, then goes back towards Naoto, disappearing slightly in front of her. 
• D Zapper: Quickly connects off close range sweep, same as the other Zapper? 5C connects after it on normal hit, akin to how it connects after C Zapper in fatal counter combos. Example combo: Sweep > D Zapper > 5C > 2C > C shots.
• Can IK off Throw (chop) > Hama.
• Shot switching: able to combo ABABA shots at close range.
• Shooting system: When exiting stance, forces reload if bullets are used. Initial value of gauge is different in proportion to number of bullets used. (Last bullet bonus is no longer a thing.)
• C Trap: 3 fate, D Trap: 4 fate.
• Persona turns around on 5D activation.
• Autocombo meter bonus is on the A Fangs part of it. Doesn't seem to get the bonus with manual input of the special.
• Critical Shoot C and D versions both do 2000 raw.

[Ichipoo]

I'm really digging the buffs to D Zapper. That means we can remove 2 Fate counters and deal Poison to our opponent while we're at it! 5D turning around like 4D is nice as well. Also I'm not quite sure if the change to Autocombo bonus exactly hurts us at all, if you wanted meter, "optimal" route to go for on a standing opponent was 5AAAA~Bx5 which gives around 40 SP more or less (not sure, have to rewatch a few videos again), which was Waka goes for sometimes.

[Zeromus_X]

Sounds like buffs overall. Traps taking away 3/4 fate on raw hit sounds great. Changes to bullets sound weird; I'll have to see them in action.

And Ichi, I was referring to Shadow version autocombo. I'm sure regular Naoto's dial A will be fine.