Your pet-peeves netplaying.

[TD]

I guess you dont read... swd and I were agreeing about execution requirements for high,that is, well above average play, or expert play. And how iza and valk are very taxing comparative to the rest of the cast due to the speed and demanding timing of their inputs required for expert play... not about bnbs or just what it takes to be "good" with a char. not about how many ppl use the ez combo and are fine or how many jp players dont and not about looking stylish and not about if a char has oki or w/e tools (and btw being "different" is how you seperate yourself and surprise players of any given skill thus - higher lvl play)... sigh...

Hmm, well rereading what I wrote, could have sworn I was on the same page as you two. At any rate, I can see we are going nowhere from here, so let's agree to disagree.

[StylisH]

Yeah, in terms of potential Hazama will pretty much always be top 3 when he politely says "fuck off" whenever the nerf bat comes to hang out 

 

My apologies, I just really do not like that character LOL

[TD]

He won't quit. Maybe we will get what we asked for in the next game? Hopefully...

I do wonder which version of Hazama was the worst.

[LaowPing]

He won't quit. Maybe we will get what we asked for in the next game? Hopefully...

I do wonder which version of Hazama was the worst.

Calamity Trigger since he wasn't playable.

And technically difficult and difficult aren't the same but I've gotten a warning for being off topic before so I'm not getting back into that.

Back to actual pet peeves, i hate when people with 0 bar connections stay in the lobby.

Sent from my ZTE-X500 using Tapatalk 2

[StylisH]

He won't quit. Maybe we will get what we asked for in the next game? Hopefully...

I do wonder which version of Hazama was the worst.

 

1.1 I guess since there were no obnoxious loops into 'Ye Gods' class damage.  Still a top 5 character IMO

[someonewhodied]

Hmm, well rereading what I wrote, could have sworn I was on the same page as you two. At any rate, I can see we are going nowhere from here, so let's agree to disagree.

.....i hit back when i was almost done typing. (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ 彡┻━┻

 

anyways. What you said is true, some things really aren't Necessary for playing a character buuut...

 

I was talking about at the highest level of humanly possible play where you are utilizing every tool a character has, valk and izayoi are IMO the hardest. Sure you don't NEED everything a character has to win, but they still have those tools. With izayoi microdash normals in midscreen combos can extend GA combo damage by ~500 to 1000 usually (also for the cost of an extra stock)

ex:

no microdash: 5B>5C>3C>236C~6C>214B>5B>5C>j.B>j.C>dj.B>j.C>j.236C~D

Microdash:      5B>5C>3C>236C~6C>214D>665C>2C(1)>3C>236B>214A>5C>j.B>j.C>dj.C>j.236C~D

 

and with valk if you were to replace every wolfdash move with a wolfbrake one, you could fit in more moves before the combo timer runs out to get more damage. Also perfect human/wolf transformations for specific combo links that normally would be more difficult could get you better combos. (w5B>5C>brj.A>5D2C instead of w5B>5C>6D>j.A>5DB)

 

Most of them are unnecessary outside of CMVs and training mode shenanigans but pulling these things off are harder than stuff with other characters.

 

 

Aand i probably got sidetracked somewhere or lost my train of thought because i'm sorta half paying attention and i'm too lazy to reread my post but whatever.

[TD]

I don't even know how to say this without sounding lol internet sarcastic, but I'll add the disclaimer.

So you guys assume the top level players/ high level play are/is walking talking combo videos, doing all the unnecessaries and what not in real matches, when it was in fact agreed by one of you that this is not the case...

By the way this is definitely not the vibe I got from those posts, but it is what it is. I don't think this debate is that important. If you guys say valk and izayoi are like the hardest characters ever, (...excuse me, I mean at the absolutely highest level!) then ok. I don't agree. I stated why, you guys don't agree. Unless someone else knowledgeable wants to drop a DNA bomb in here, I'm afraid we are at an impasse.

Tldr: one hard combo or concept does not a hard character make, unless they HAVE to do said combo. My point, reiterated. That is all.

Disclaimer:

[someonewhodied]

I don't even know how to say this without sounding lol internet sarcastic, but I'll add the disclaimer.

So you guys assume the top level players are walking talking combo videos, doing all the unnecessaries and what not in real matches, when it was in fact agreed by one of you that this is not the case...

By the way this is definitely not the vibe I got from those posts, but it is what it is. I don't think this debate is that important. If you guys say valk and izayoi are like the hardest characters ever, (...excuse me, I mean at the absolutely highest level!) then ok. I don't agree. I stated why, you guys don't agree. Unless someone else knowledgeable wants to drop a DNA bomb in here, I'm afraid we are at an impasse.

Tldr: one hard combo or concept does not a hard character make, unless they HAVE to do said combo. My point, reiterated. That is all.

Disclaimer:

 

Nah a lot of the top players i see actually stick with the most basic of combos. (heck, even though i lab combos for hours a week i only do basic stuff in matches) I'm talking about a theoretical situation where the players levels are just short of a TAS.

[TD]

I am not sure what a TAS is, do you mind explaining? Perhaps that may give more light into you r comment for me. Besides that, ok. But even the , these combos involve very specific resources and sometimes, circumstances. I mean it's just too much to ask for to be practical. And whether people want to believe that or not, pragmatism IS important even when talking about characters hardest combos. It's pretty much combo video fodder.

My bad on the valk bit, I already agreed he is a bit hard all around (and the reasoning being that his harder stuff tends to pop up more in actual, high level matches, implying these are concepts that actually need to be learned to play well with him), my main point was against izayoi being arguably one of the hardest characters execution wise, which I definitely, definitely do not agree with. In a theoretical situation on that one percent chance that a high level player would even let someone get them in that situation, I guess doing the actual micro dashes are difficult. This is still like the tip of a rather small iceberg, however.

[mAc Chaos]

Since this is Izayoi SKD could probably drop some knowledge here but I do recall him specifically complaining that they made Izayoi easier in Extend.

[TD]

Welp

Though, that answer does not satisfy my brain. I need to know why. How has she become easier? I have a large idea from watching many of her 2.0 videos, but some clarity for everyone would be nice, too. And the end-all question, is she an execution heavy character as a whole. Not just doing a microdash or a combo into 2 supers.

[Henjin]

You must HATE Argent Zero then.

Oh I have a few exceptions for certant players. Argent zero is an acception I will play againsts up to an extent.

[someonewhodied]

TAS = Tool Assisted Superplay

 

Basically having complete control down to the frame for your inputs.

[Errol]

Valk and izayoi have my vote for hardest in high level play. Carl and Rachel for the level between mid and high.

 

With valk and izayoi you have to actually always be reacting to what your opponent does, even on their wakeup, with no setplay to help you. Sure you have to somewhat react with carl and rachel, but you have SOME form of projectile oki tools or late-hitting projectiles to help. 

 

I can't speak for carl but this just isn't accurate for Rachel. Projectiles don't really help reactions, the wakeup game is much more difficult but stronger than with a char with very basic oki options like Tsubaki. Rachel combos are now pretty easy, but confirms border on absurd now. 

 

I think izayoi 'oki' is sometimes of the extreme easy variety. E.g. Ok do 2C here regardless of what they do, it will catch all tech options and Dps will whiff, Do JC this is a safe jump, if they late tech just react within 60 frames and choose to bait a dp or press a button.

 

Rachel Oki doesn't have any of that. you have to react even against people without DPs, or else you'll blue beat. projectiles don't automatically cover any tech options.

 

well. etc.

[skd]

i can do microdash combos in match free, theyre not difficult. Theyre also removed in this verison, lol. Besides, old microdash combos usually were only optimal for trans-am. If you were going to burn the stock for midscreen conversions, it would be best to bring them to the corner, which is why it wasnt necessary.

 

I also tried my hands (which i took for a pretty bad spin last year playing izayoi, i couldn't hold cups at one point) at other high execution characters to see how they compare and i think izayoi is a bit harder in terms of directional movement (but less heavy on the button inputs compared to like, valk, and im speaking strictly of 1.1) than other characters simply due to the amount of motions you have to do in a short period of time. Think about confirming 1/2 quick attacks for hit/block, then immediately doing superjump IAD (superjump IAD keeps her strings tighter because of the minimum height airdash requirement being met faster).

 

Now, thanks to having to do 6A in certain confirms, if you do 6A late the buffer window for 236 motions needs to be reset (you need to go to 4, effectively doing a half circle) and delays usually cause these confirms to drop thanks to combo time.

 

1.1 had great combos like jBAC dash 5A 623B and having to do the 623B on the first possible frame in order to get oki from a combo while maximizing stock gain. And yes, stock gain is indispensable when it counts.
 

Forget trans-am combos, i think those are some of the most input heavy optimal routes you can pull in the game IMO (in 1.1) but they effectively dropped the skill roof for the character by removing all of the high execution shit barring SJ IAD and limiting the amount of 623/236~214 xN motions that you have to do. Remember Chris G saying "my hands" from playing morrigan? Sort of what happened to me in 1.1, lol.

 

I think her execution cap in 1.1 was extremely high, for directional inputs. In 2.0 all of the hard shit is gone except for like 1 thing, so shes pretty much run of the mill now lmao.

 

re: izayoi 2C, no, it never could cover all tech options and be reversal safe. if they committed to it, it was pretty dangerous and only to place you in a more dangerous situation for not teching. If you had a DP, it was a guess on her behalf to force you into a worse position on knockdown. jC oki in the corner is similar, delayed emergency tech would ruin your safejump, you have to react to the safejump really quickly and airdash to accomodate. Same goes for a lot of midscreen oki setups, but instead you might have to IAD in the opposite direction to keep advantage (to force turnaround instead of backdash)

Edited April 29, 2015 by not_lunaris

[someonewhodied]

Yea i was talking 1.1

 

haven't tried 90% of the cast in CPE yet. 1.1 izayoi was fun for labwork.

[Errol]

in the end, we don't really know that much about each other's characters, characters we don't really play etc. 

 

ed: which goes for me too. 

[StylisH]

Izayoi being easier does NOT make me a happy camper

[Henjin]

Wtf... terumi us worse. Nerf for .1 then buff for ex. But thats not the reason at all... ppl play mindlessly with that guy.

[skd]

as far as the discussion from earlier goes, my response is...rachel is way more technical, but not necessarily execution heavy. To me, execution heavy is the shit that gives you arthritis. Like, you need to do so many inputs that your hands give out during grand finals of a tournament and that really sucked oh my god

 

Well, in 2.0, oki is heavily simplified for izayoi, confirms are so easy (only 2 "hard" things are SJ IAD's and remembering to half circle for your 6A confirms). No longer need to react to every little thing on knockdown midscreen to retain advantage. Rachel i think has a much, much harder time controlling knockdown properly, definitely in 1.1 and most definitely now. BUT Raw execution wise, I think 1.1 Izayoi was more taxing, inputs were more difficult and you needed to do them more often/quickly. in terms of technicality Rachel is much higher on the totem pole, but that is a different kind of difficulty in optimal play. Valk is kind of like an in between for technicality and execution of those two, tbh.

 

tl;dr I dont think rachel is execution heavy. I think she is technical and demanding, but the execution required for her stuff is not really on the same level as valk. Izayoi used to have tougher execution than Rachel, but that is no longer the case.

Edited April 29, 2015 by not_lunaris

[mAc Chaos]

So basically Rachel requires more precision but Izayoi is DDR.

[TD]

Yep.

[Moy_X7]

Wtf... terumi us worse. Nerf for .1 then buff for ex. But thats not the reason at all... ppl play mindlessly with that guy.

 

Rare footage of underdog J Anson Terumi bodying young swag Jin God Fenrichi: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEPohnYJitg#t=51m53s

 

To me, execution heavy is the shit that gives you arthritis. Like, you need to do so many inputs that your hands give out during grand finals of a tournament and that really sucked oh my god.

 

New OS confirmed

 

As for pet-peeves, niggas writing ridiculously long messages to me on PSN like they expect me to reply with anything other than "ok". I suppose I could buy an USB hub and plug in my keyboard but ain't nobody got money and time for that. 

[Nemesis]

 Izayoi is DDR.

That was exactly what I was poorly trying to explain but ... thx @ swd and skd for doing what i legit cant 

Sigh... I have that Naruto level brain

 

 

Rare footage of underdog J Anson Terumi bodying young swag Jin God Fenrichi: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEPohnYJitg#t=51m53s

That is some impressive Terumi Play

[mAceOfHearts]

What the hell is up with Valk's 5A?

I swear, this move would whiff on standing Tager at point blank range.

 

I just blocked Gauntlet Hades and mashed 5A to punish it. (Not sure how punishable it is in EX, so I figured I'd go with Valk's fastest move just to be sure)

All 3 hits whiffed. They clearly went straight through Rags' face, but none of them actually hit.

God, this move is bad.