Raptor Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 After playing some competent Jin's, Tao's, and Hazama's, I can say for sure Kagura will get wrecked in neutral. They can easily punish you if you so much as try to out-poke them, and he is sloooooow so they can use hit and run tactics. What did help though is to be very patient and look for openings and get a knockdown from that. From there the orb oki is very strong as it gives ample time to bring out Kagura's absurd mixup potential.
Raziul Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 After playing some competent Jin's, Tao's, and Hazama's, I can say for sure Kagura will get wrecked in neutral. They can easily punish you if you so much as try to out-poke them, and he is sloooooow so they can use hit and run tactics. What did help though is to be very patient and look for openings and get a knockdown from that. From there the orb oki is very strong as it gives ample time to bring out Kagura's absurd mixup potential. Don't forget to mention that Kagura has essentially zero defensive options. He's pretty much Carl with HP instead speed/doll.
-Seo Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Here's what I've got so far: Table of Kagura drive frame traps Feedback is welcome! TODO: test frame traps from 5C/2C/3C/6C. Nice stuff Bill. What's up fellow Kaguras! Quick Tip #1 - We know that when doing his stances moves in the air, he falls to the ground and does them. However, you can control which direction he falls to the ground to do the move. Neutral he will just fall straight, but you can use 3 (A B or C) or 1 (A B or C) to have him dive in those directions before he does the move. Might be useful in crossups? You can use 4 and 6 too to go at more of an angle.
Kakimori Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Don't forget to mention that Kagura has essentially zero defensive options. He's pretty much Carl with HP instead speed/doll. I was under the impression that his DP wasn't half bad? Granted, it can't be thrown out at a moment's notice, but I'm used to playing Tsubaki, Valkenhayn, and Lambda, who REALLY have zero defensive options.
LoVeBirD- Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 (edited) I found frame data for Kagura on a Japanese wiki. Not sure how accurate it is but seems quite accurate judging from our anecdotes. Also it's not all frame data, just startup. 5A(上)…5F 5B(下)…8F 5C(上)…19F 6A(中)…22F 6B(上)…13F 6C(上)…24F 2A(上)…7F 2B(下)…12F 2C(上)…18F 3C(下)…14F 構え最速派生16F 5DA(上)…19F 5DB(投げ)…7F 5DC(上・上)…17F 2DA(中)…20F 2DB(下・上)…初段13F 2DC(上・下)…初段16F 6DA(上)…24F 6DB(上)…33F(位置入れ替え) 6DC(上)…15F From my own personal tests, I'm pretty sure that 5A and 5B have frame advantage(or are +0?) Edit: Don't wanna make another post, 2DA is not only foot invul but MAYBE also throw invincible (?) Try it guys Edited October 27, 2013 by LoVeBirD-
LoVeBirD- Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Nice stuff Bill. You can use 4 and 6 too to go at more of an angle. I don't seem to see any difference between 4 or 1. But there's definitely more of an angle with 6. Thanks for this. Using 6 instead of 3 will make crossups a lot easier. Don't have to worry about the angle because he goes far enough.
LoVeBirD- Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 I'm reading things about holding down a button to make the drive stance moves/cancels come out faster or something? Anyone care to elaborate? I'm confused and timing this guys combos seems ridiculously hard. He's not like any other char I've played
FatalCounter Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 Come on guys, what do you expect from day 3 of a new character. If someone was thinking Kagura is fast, then you did the wrong choice. This is the mainly reason he can do such damage when he touch you, and he have 11,5K. They won't give you Taokaka with that health. I remember people saying that Relius was so bad in BBCS EX and Uzayoi was the worst char in BBCP. Both get good with time. BTW Hakumen and Tager are slow too, but they are good chars. In few words, give him some time and when we will learn his neutral game, problems will be resolved. If we think we can just press his 5C and get a combo then we are playing the wrong game.
FatalCounter Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 (edited) 5C with 19 frames startup? O_O !!!!!! Not officiel, but ehh! Any jump cancellable moves on Block? how are his airdashes? fast enough? Does that means 6B is a level 4 move? Since only level 4 moves can connect with a move having 19f startup except whle you are hitting someone crouching. Edited October 27, 2013 by FatalCounter
Kakimori Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 So what's the best option after a blocked 2D~B? If they don't IB, is 5D~A~44 relatively safe? I'm trying to find some safe way of applying pressure with him. It's great that 5D~A, 5D~C, and 6D~C frame trap after 2D~A because lawd is that move unsafe on its own.
-Seo Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 5C with 19 frames startup? O_O !!!!!! Not officiel, but ehh! Any jump cancellable moves on Block? how are his airdashes? fast enough? Does that means 6B is a level 4 move? Since only level 4 moves can connect with a move having 19f startup except whle you are hitting someone crouching. Only 5A and 6B are can be jump cancelled on block IIRC.
evid3nts Posted October 27, 2013 Posted October 27, 2013 What options do you guys with the game think are his best given the opponent late techs Kaguras B-orb Oki or does a quick forward roll? While watching the TSB stream I saw opponents rely on these tactics to eliminate Kaguras B-orb Oki. If they late tech the B-orb it looks like it OTG's into a possible blue beat combo or (reset?) but If they do a forward roll they escape. I won't be able to test until tomorrow but I was thinking maybe A-orb could catch forward rolls or j.4D to stay in there face. Also I would assume A-orb would be good to use to end blockstrings. I don't know the recovery of it or start-up so if anyone can test this stuff out I know we would all appreciate it. I will be doing some testing and posting more often once I get my hands on the game.
Kakimori Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 From what I have seen, you can't use orb to end a blockstring because you can only cancel drive moves into it on hit. If I'm wrong, I'd be very happy but... It works perfectly well from something like blocked 5C, though.
evid3nts Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 I hate to repost but can anyone give thoughts on my last post? I haven't gotten my hands on the game yet(should arrive sometime Monday....hopefully) but I have been playing out in my mind what his Oki looks like. After watching the combo vids up I would assume it would be: combo>knockdown> B orb... [j.6D,2D, or 4D] mindf**k(mashable?) [5B or 6A] high/low mix-up [6DA or 6DB] low starter/ cross-up [5DA or 5DB] Fatal(frame trap?)/command grab [2DA,2DB, or 2DC] overhead/ first attack hits high second hits low/ first attack hits low second hits high [Throw] and also resets from air combos Is this typically his playstyle and Oki in a nutshell assuming his ground game is good? This is all speculation from what I have seen thus far and from reading the descriptions of his moves from the wiki. I just want to know if those with the game can clarify the information gathered to be useful and also what should and should not be used. I can't wait to get my hands on this character :-P
Kakimori Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 5B/6A is a good high/low mixup, however, 6A is slow and 5B has absurdly short range. 6D~A and 6D~B is a cool mixup, but I don't think either of them are completely safe, either (even if you chain from them). The command grab also has absurdly bad range, so I haven't seen a lot of potential for mixup between that and 5D~A yet. It seems like he's a character who needs to play defensively in neutral until he can find an opening to start his mind games. If the opponent spams projectiles, 6D~C can go through them (has anyone confirmed whether this works with Hazama chains?) for a CH and combo, and if they try to jump in he has some good anti-airs, but you always need to be thinking and planning a step ahead (especially since his DP, which is probably his best anti-air, can't just be thrown out). I'm still not sure if he has any good options after blocked drive moves.
Heroic_Legacy Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 6D© will go through a chain but Hazama can reaction retract it and block most of the time so all you get is pressure (if he doesn't have 50 meter to just Houtenjin you out of every followup.)
Kakimori Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 (edited) I'm not sure how safe or legit this is, but I've been having a bit of fun with the following blockstring/reset: [something] > 5D~A~44 > 5C > [4]6B You can hold the second [4] of the backdash to make the fireball come out instantly after the 5C is blocked. Holding it also inches you back a little just out of the range of most moves. It lets you do something like: 6D~C If CH, combo. If blocked, 2D~B. If 2D~B hits, throw fireball for oki (be holding back during the move). If 2D~B is blocked, throw out 5D~A~44 and finish the blockstring. Definitely not ironclad, but it's the best semi-safe blockstring I know of so far. Edited October 28, 2013 by Kakimori
evid3nts Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 Would a blocked B-orb Oki give enough frame advantage to do 6A or maybe microdash 5B?
LordSpectreX Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 Would a blocked B-orb Oki give enough frame advantage to do 6A or maybe microdash 5B? Yeah you have enough time to do Dash 6A after a blocked B-orb. They can't mash 2A to get out of it. Anyway, I'm doubting the usefulness of doing ...3C > 2DC > B Orb. If they decide not to tech, the B Orb will OTG and give them a free air tech. Any ideas on how to get around this?
LordSpectreX Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 You can definitely stutter-step 5B too. Of course, but then what? 5BB > Air combo is fake, 5B>3C is fake, 5BB>5C is fake. I can't find anyway to force the lack of tech into pressure.
evid3nts Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 Possible air throw? or maybe an AUB yomi. j.6D(crossup?) I'm just throwing stuff out there. (will test as soon as I get it) I'm sure we can mind fuck them even if they late tech. Following the free air tech could an A-orb force them to block again? j.4D~B-orb I would think could reset pressure
Kakimori Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 I don't know, what would you do after 6A? It IS possible to block on reaction. You could 5BB > 3C > 5D~A~66 > grab or something?
Bill307 Posted October 28, 2013 Posted October 28, 2013 Yeah you have enough time to do Dash 6A after a blocked B-orb. They can't mash 2A to get out of it. Anyway, I'm doubting the usefulness of doing ...3C > 2DC > B Orb. If they decide not to tech, the B Orb will OTG and give them a free air tech. Any ideas on how to get around this? I was going to look at this today, but ended up looking at flashkick RC combos instead. :P If there are no good options then it might be better to just do 2DC 5DA 6DC to push them into the corner instead. I wonder if the orbs are at least useful for oki in the corner? I just did some tests with the 3.4k dmg 2A corner combo that ends in 2DA delay 46B. Since 2DA prevents emergency tech, there IS a small window where your 46B will force them to stay in the corner and block if they roll forward and recover fast enough for you to block neutral tech super (tested with Houtenjin).
Recommended Posts