[CP1.1] Kagura Mutsuki - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Gameplay/Videos/Combos/etc.)

[evid3nts]

I'm aware of the 3K bluebeat that we would get I just didn't put it as an option assuming if they don't tech we would continue the combo. Im going to test the air tech again today so we can share more notes

[evid3nts]

Looks like I noted it already in an earlier post:

"If they don't tech you can continue the blue beat combo, If they air tech they must barrier, and if they late tech(hit ground) back roll they are at tip range of 5C and 2C. You can charge B-orb during both moves to Re-force pressure.

This same thing applies to 2DC,B-orb OTG blue beat combo as well

They can late tech(hit ground) forward roll but that puts them in 6B range back into pressure"

[LordSpectreX]

After 2DC, B Orb will not OTG except on;

Ragna, Taokaka, Hakumen, Tager, Arakune and Rachel. It will always OTG if they're lying flat on the ground. On everyone else, the B Orb will pass over them as long as you give a very, very slight delay, and won't OTG until they begin to auto-rise.

[tehxdemixazn]

I said it earlier that 2DC wallbounces in corner and that ensures 46B. Didn't know the funny hitbox characters can get picked up though good to know.

Edit: now I feel like a tool. Didn't catch the very first post saying this was just about oki. Here I thought it was about why 46B wasn't working in the combos following eg 3C 6DC 2DC 46B in corner. Don't look at meeeee.

Edited November 1, 2013 by tehxdemixazn

[Ryukagura]

Alright, so for the new struggling Kagura main, what would you all say his top 10 moves are for these two categories I'm aware that some moves will overlap but I wanna get peoples opinion on this?

Pressure& Approaching-

Defense and counter poking-

[evid3nts]

After 2DC, B Orb will not OTG except on;

Ragna, Taokaka, Hakumen, Tager, Arakune and Rachel. It will always OTG if they're lying flat on the ground. On everyone else, the B Orb will pass over them as long as you give a very, very slight delay, and won't OTG until they begin to auto-rise.

Thanks for compiling the list. By the way, did you test on Terumi? I remember seeing it OTG on last week's stream

[LordSpectreX]

Thanks for compiling the list. By the way, did you test on Terumi? I remember seeing it OTG on last week's stream

If he did it very quickly, too slowly or the Terumi did a Quick Tech, then it will "OTG". But I'm strictly referring to after 2DC and using for Oki vs someone who doesn't press anything at all. If they don't press anything, it will eventually OTG when they begin to rise.

Alright, so for the new struggling Kagura main, what would you all say his top 10 moves are for these two categories I'm aware that some moves will overlap but I wanna get peoples opinion on this?

Pressure& Approaching-

Defense and counter poking-

This is all my opinion ofc, but it'd be hard to get 10 moves to go into these catorgories. Why? Because Kagura's neutral game is really, really poor.

Kagura is extremely slow, and his moves have incredibly long recovery and startup. You can supplement this by using stuff like B Dark Orb to cover yourself. However, the general rule of thumb is that if you approach by air, you'll be anti aired pretty easily, if you approach by ground, even decent pokes will stop you. Kagura's best mid-range normal is arguably 6B and even that is fairly pitiful. Stuff like j.D into drives like 6DC can be useful but it's pretty situational.

The way I open up people Kagura is not through neutral pressure, but instead with spacing. 5C keeps them honest at mid to long range and baits a lot of jump approches. 6C's range is GODLY (I've caught people from the peak of Super Double Jumps) and most of his drive moves, while being slow, usually have special properties or other unique traits. And of course, he has his DP. It is important to remember that his DP is pretty hard to punish. You can often use it as an anti air and be completely safe. Since they have to barrier block the whole duration of the moves throughout multiple hits, they'll usually be sent hurtling back and unable to punish.

Drive Moves like 2DB can catch ground approaches with a low, 5DC if they come from the air, 6DC can cut through projectiles, 5DA will counter high mid pokes. They're slow, but if you space yourself properly, then they help zone you opponent and often catch them out.

What I mean is that I believe you have to open up people through the little mistakes they make during THEIR approach. It's important to remember that Kagura's mixup is insanely good, and you don't need much to start it. In fact, you can start a pretty dangerous mixup (and baiting game) from any hit you do, and sometimes just from blockstun (hello 6DC). Once you have the momentum, then you can go ham and destroy them.

Top 10 Moves at Neutral;

5C (Mid-Long Range Poke)

6C (Long Range Anti Air)

5DC (Aggressive Anti Air

28C (Defensive Anti-Air and general Anti-Button move.)

6DC (Mid Range Anti Projectile Thrust)

5DA (Short-Mid Range Super Armor)

2DB (Mid Range Sweep)

j.C (Quick and Easy Knockdown)

j.A (Fast Air-to-Air)

B Dark Orb (High Durability Full Screen Projectile)

Edited November 1, 2013 by LordSpectreX

[Ryukagura]

This is all my opinion ofc, but it'd be hard to get 10 moves to go into these catorgories. Why? Because Kagura's neutral game is really, really poor.

Kagura is extremely slow, and his moves have incredibly long recovery and startup. You can supplement this by using stuff like B Dark Orb to cover yourself. However, the general rule of thumb is that if you approach by air, you'll be anti aired pretty easily, if you approach by ground, even decent pokes will stop you. Kagura's best mid-range normal is arguably 6B and even that is fairly pitiful. Stuff like j.D into drives like 6DC can be useful but it's pretty situational.

The way I open up people Kagura is not through neutral pressure, but instead with spacing. 5C keeps them honest at mid to long range and baits a lot of jump approches. 6C's range is GODLY (I've caught people from the peak of Super Double Jumps) and most of his drive moves, while being slow, usually have special properties or other unique traits. And of course, he has his DP. It is important to remember that his DP is pretty hard to punish. You can often use it as an anti air and be completely safe. Since they have to barrier block the whole duration of the moves throughout multiple hits, they'll usually be sent hurtling back and unable to punish.

Drive Moves like 2DB can catch ground approaches with a low, 5DC if they come from the air, 6DC can cut through projectiles, 5DA will counter high mid pokes. They're slow, but if you space yourself properly, then they help zone you opponent and often catch them out.

What I mean is that I believe you have to open up people through the little mistakes they make during THEIR approach. It's important to remember that Kagura's mixup is insanely good, and you don't need much to start it. In fact, you can start a pretty dangerous mixup (and baiting game) from any hit you do, and sometimes just from blockstun (hello 6DC). Once you have the momentum, then you can go ham and destroy them.

Top 10 Moves at Neutral;

5C (Mid-Long Range Poke)

6C (Long Range Anti Air)

5DC (Aggressive Anti Air)

28C (Defensive Anti-Air and general Anti-Button move.)

6DC (Mid Range Anti Projectile Thrust)

5DA (Short-Mid Range Super Armor)

2DB (Mid Range Sweep)

j.C (Quick and Easy Knockdown)

j.A (Fast Air-to-Air)

B Dark Orb (High Durability Full Screen Projectile)

Ok this sounds pretty good. I have been hearing a lot of people say his neutral games is pretty weak. I only just got my own copy of the game today so I will be learning more as I go but I thought I should ask. Thank you for your imput. I know would have also liked to have seen what OmniSScythe thought so hopefully he will see this and post. Its going to be really hard to learn what to do at neutral with him if his neutral game is that weak, though I do like that his mix up game is a strong as it is and he has the orb oki. I would also like to know what do you think his best pokes are for getting out of pressure and counter poking while being on the defense.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Ryukagura

[evid3nts]

Kagura doesn't have much to escape pressure in my opinion. The only thing I find to work is counter assault and maybe Insta Barrier Flash Kick? but I'm not to sure about that one though.

Also another normal you could use from a distance is 2C. Its start up looks to be a few frames slower and recovery looks to be a few frames longer than 5C but it can be used in the same manner due to its reach. Don't forget to cancel the recovery of your normals on block with Orb or Flash Kick.

Take note of your J.cancel moves as well: J.B,5A, and 6B can all be jump cancelled on hit and block.

[Bill307]

Kagura frame data, tweeted by Blue Link / @BLUELINKBR

http://www.hitconfirm.com.br/forums/showthread.php/2719-BBCP-Kagura-Frame-Data?p=59472#post59472

Kagura doesn't have much to escape pressure in my opinion.

Flashkick?????

Ok admittedly, based on playing the flashkick character in Arcana, I know that when you're online, flashkick is waaay less useful 'cause your reaction time is nerfed.

But offline, it turns "slow" (like, Jin 6B slow), ordinarily safe frame-traps and hard-to-mash-outables into unsafe moves. It destroys predictable pressure strings. They can't even jump-cancel and barrier to bait it 'cause it's safe on air block. (In fact, it's a mixup for them if they jump towards you 'cause you can just meet them mid-air and throw or TRM setup...)

His other tools for escaping pressure are pretty mediocre on their own. Short-range 7-frame 2A. Slow backdash (see frame data above). A slow 12-frame 2B for poking people in that area where flashkick can whiff. Jump back barrier seems average. Ideally, you want them to respect (or fear) your flashkick. If they base their pressure around not getting flashkicked, it'll make your other options much more useful.

Don't forget to cancel the recovery of your normals on block with Orb or Flash Kick.

Cancelling blocked normals into flashkick is like, the worst advice ever TBH. Cancelling normals into drives on block can be unsafe, too, but the risk-reward is a hundred times better.

Edit:

After 2DC, B Orb will not OTG except on;

Ragna, Taokaka, Hakumen, Tager, Arakune and Rachel. It will always OTG if they're lying flat on the ground. On everyone else, the B Orb will pass over them as long as you give a very, very slight delay, and won't OTG until they begin to auto-rise.

Thanks for this! What setup did you test this with? I'm hoping it's the same list for any "46B non-OTG oki" situation. I'd be annoyed if the list was setup-specific as well. :/

I also wonder if there are any other characters like Kagura who don't seem to get OTG'd ever...

Edited November 1, 2013 by Bill307

[AshtonDragon]

Kagura frame data, tweeted by Blue Link / @BLUELINKBR

http://www.hitconfirm.com.br/forums/showthread.php/2719-BBCP-Kagura-Frame-Data?p=59472#post59472

1+1 for his super. Does that make it the fastest move in the game? I could tell from testing that it was his most reliable punish, but I figured it'd be at least 5 frames startup.

[MikelAL93]

Kagura frame data, tweeted by Blue Link / @BLUELINKBR

http://www.hitconfirm.com.br/forums/showthread.php/2719-BBCP-Kagura-Frame-Data?p=59472#post59472

Awesome. I will get that added to the wiki once I get home.

[FatalCounter]

Today I tested a lot of combos using that Frame data, I thinl we should use 5C and 2C instead of 6C as a combo filter in the corner, they don't prorate that much and do more damage at the end. 5C is almost exactly as 6C but doesn't too launch so high; I prefer it.

On frame data, I just love that 5C is safe on block, we can somehow abuse it, 2B is sloooow but the recovery is great.

[Bill307]

1+1 for his super. Does that make it the fastest move in the game? I could tell from testing that it was his most reliable punish, but I figured it'd be at least 5 frames startup.

Woah, I didn't notice that! [4]1236C is 1+1!

After a bit of testing, apparently it loses to meaties: nothing happens if you get hit on frame 2. If there's a trade, the rest of the hits don't come out.

The hitbox of the 1st hit doesn't go very far, but it's enough to punish e.g. Jin 2B on block (probably not a match-practical example, unless you want to really shock someone, lol). Perhaps more useful, Jin 5C from mid range (not max range) is also punishable on block. 41236C beats 5C 6B chain, and if they do 5C 6C chain, a reversal 41236C beats this as well. :O

Also, as a gimmicky, unburstable alternative to flashkicking, if you see a frame trap coming you can OD in the frame trap, use the OD invul to let the frame trap miss you, then punish the move's recovery with [4]1236C for 2764 damage. :P

[AshtonDragon]

Yeah, it doesn't have the invincibility to beat out meaty attacks or other invincible moves, but in terms of raw speed, it's incredible. Kagura can definitely punish some things that nobody else can.

I'm gonna have to test tonight if he can get a decent combo off it when RC'd.

Edited November 1, 2013 by AshtonDragon

[LordSpectreX]

Thanks for this! What setup did you test this with? I'm hoping it's the same list for any "46B non-OTG oki" situation. I'd be annoyed if the list was setup-specific as well. :/

I also wonder if there are any other characters like Kagura who don't seem to get OTG'd ever...

Tested it mainly with your 6A "46B Non-OTG oki" combo. Though it still applies to stuff like 2AB3C>2DC so I doubt it's setup specific.

[Bill307]

[4]1236C RC 6C works, apparently! 6C 6DB is pretty easy near the corner, but at midscreen it's quite difficult to hit. 6DA is a lot easier to time at midscreen. The super is a "short" starter like 2A.

E.g. starting from training mode initial positions:

41236C RC 6C delay 6DA 2DA 46B 3C 6DC 2DB (46A oki) [4450 -92]

You can replace 3C with 5C for 4567 damage, but I find it a lot harder to connect 2DB (on Jin) in this case.

Not sure if this combo is optimal since I didn't test much.

Edit:

Tested it mainly with your 6A "46B Non-OTG oki" combo. Though it still applies to stuff like 2AB3C>2DC so I doubt it's setup specific.

I think I know what you mean. I remember vs someone (probably Ragna) I had to delay the 46B for a looong time after 2DC to avoid OTGing him. Was confused because I was sure only a slight delay was needed, haha.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Bill307

[FatalCounter]

I finally got a decent combo proving what I was saying earlier. Corner: 5BB> 3C> 6DC> 2DC> 46B> 4C> 46A> 5C> 2DA> 6DB> 5DC>.... Only this, does ~3.8k

This does a bit less damage but easier 5BB> 3C> 6DC> 2DC> 46A> 4BBC> 46B> 6C> 2DA> 6DB> 5DC....

Edited November 1, 2013 by FatalCounter

[-Seo]

I finally got a decent combo proving what I was saying earlier. Corner: 5BB> 3C> 6DC> 2DC> 46B> 4C> 46A> 5C> 2DA> 6DB> 5DC>.... Only this, does ~3.8k

After 5C > 2DA try 5C > 2DA > 5DA(dc) 3C > 6DC > 2DB > (a orb oki). Slightly better positioning and oki

[FatalCounter]

After 5C > 2DA try 5C > 2DA > 5DA(dc) 3C > 6DC > 2DB > (a orb oki). Slightly better positioning and oki

You are right, but I don't get a good positioning after 5DA most of the time, in order to do the sweep. This is why I stopped using it. I got an easy easy when I don't want to work that much. 5BB> 3C> 6DC> 2DC> B orb> 2C> 5C> A orb> 5C> 6DC. For soft knockdown. and get ~3560

I personally think 3C and jB are his best moves. 3C is very large and useful for almost all his combos. Not only, the sweep let your opponent very high, but he vacuum him too. The only problem with this move is his frame advantage (worse than Hakumen) and his startup (same as Mu-12 one). JB is too good. it has a splendid recovery in the air, you can use it and air dash after recovery time and it is quite fast. It is really similar to Relius jB, same startup, almost same recovery. amazing cross up, and you can jump behind your opponent and airdash back and hit him behind. But Relius jB hit pretty high, while Kagura jB put him pretty high, so he is less vulnerable to 5A anti-air.

Did you guy knew CH 3C combo with 6C? I got an amazing combo, I was like O_O.....

Edited November 1, 2013 by FatalCounter

[Lord Pwnge18]

So the Rachel matchup is looking really goddamn lame.

[Mr.Two]

Okay guys using the bug were you can control 2 people at the same time with one controller in training mode i have figure out the start up of most of his normals. So for your enjoyment. If any one has questions about how i got this numbers feel free to ask.

5a 5

2a 7

6a some where between 16 and 25. Couldn't find moves to accurately test.

5b 8

2b 12

6b 11,12,13 one of those

5c 18 or 19

2c 18

3c 14

6c 24,25,26,27 could be any of those

ja 7

jb 10

jc 13

crush trigger 30 uncharged 60 full charge

Edited November 2, 2013 by Mr.Two

[Kimchi]

his frame data is actually right here

[Mr.Two]

well I'll be. Wish that some one said something sooner. Well thank you for that. don't suppose you know where to find Terumi's

Edited November 2, 2013 by Mr.Two

[stickystaines]

It should only be 1 or 2 pages back if you are on 10 posts per page :/

How are you guys approaching the neutral game? The fireball seems okay to get people to do stuff like jumping or air dashing over it, but many times you have to run up to catch them while they are still in the air and i seem to have trouble against airborne opponents without a flash kick charged. 6C is okay but you have to do it half predictably since it's so slow especially against anyone with half decent air dash speed. And also, 6C works against air dashes fine, but if they just normal jump and you try to 6C then they can usually airdash back, land and run up and punish you. I think i just need to learn to sit on my charge more and set the pacing.

I also get scared to throw out 5C against people with decent airdashes, even though it's a pretty nice move otherwise. The most i usually do is a predictive neutral j.C since if they try to approach they usually get smacked and is a pretty safe option. But i want to hear what everyone else does when trying to play at neutral.

Also what do people use for roll pickups?

Edited November 2, 2013 by stickystaines