Bill307 Posted November 2, 2013 Posted November 2, 2013 Kagura Combos by Wakaba Kisaragi The combos into Astral at the end are nice. There was also a good idea for 6DB near your corner: go into 2DC 46B etc. to side switch and put them into the corner. I'm not a fan of most of the combos in this video, though. Most of them either: - use combo routes that aren't as good as the ones in the previous 2 videos, and/or - don't end in oki. It did teach me one new thing: 5BB 3C 5DC 2DA is possible. (vs Ragna, at least)
Justice7541 Posted November 2, 2013 Posted November 2, 2013 So, uh, someone sell this character to me? I really like the way his shit looks and he is a super pimp daddy baller but honestly he doesn't seem that good of a character: - Lacks a hard AA outside of flashkick - Tiny range on anything that isnt double-digit frames of startup - Doesn't even get anything from his big pokes at max range - Really fucking slow - Damage isn't even that good except for maybe his one midscreen 5D~C 2D~A combo which is super tight. His j.B clashes with ID though which is funny. Except Ragna can just DP again and Kagura can't do anything about it.
Kimchi Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) -Honestly, i think his flash kick is one of the best AA in the game =x. you can't punish if blocked in air. easier to react to moves since it is charge based, can't cross up imputs, gets a combo on CH. some situations you can also get oki. -I do feel that is where he has trouble at that mid range where his pokes are either too short too slow. -his big pokes 5c/2c you can hit confirm into 2DC<RC< 4k +oki/5k+damage for example. -imo his damage potential is one of the highest in the game. Edited November 3, 2013 by Kimchi
Heroic_Legacy Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 So the Rachel matchup is looking really goddamn lame. Rachel has a hard time stopping 6dC from blowing through lobelia and tempest dahlia. She also has like 1/4th your damage output. - Lacks a hard AA outside of flashkick - Tiny range on anything that isnt double-digit frames of startup - Doesn't even get anything from his big pokes at max range - Really fucking slow - Damage isn't even that good except for maybe his one midscreen 5D~C 2D~A combo which is super tight. -No AA is a big deal, just don't run at them all too much then. Flash Kick is safe on air block. Don't rely on it as a reversal though. No range. -Yeah it's called bad matchups. Kagura is gonna have a lot of em thanks to crappy normals. -5C and 2C 2dB RC is big damage anywhere. -Tager is slower if it's any consolation. -Damage is absurd. 75 bar 7k going into the corner is a ton compared to the cast. Just it isn't easy to hit with him in the first place. I wouldn't call Kagura a very good character no, but he is pretty fun when he's not dealing with frustrating matchups.
Justice7541 Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Rachel has a hard time stopping 6dC from blowing through lobelia and tempest dahlia. She also has like 1/4th your damage output. -No AA is a big deal, just don't run at them all too much then. Flash Kick is safe on air block. Don't rely on it as a reversal though. No range. -Yeah it's called bad matchups. Kagura is gonna have a lot of em thanks to crappy normals. -5C and 2C 2dB RC is big damage anywhere. -Tager is slower if it's any consolation. -Damage is absurd. 75 bar 7k going into the corner is a ton compared to the cast. Just it isn't easy to hit with him in the first place. I wouldn't call Kagura a very good character no, but he is pretty fun when he's not dealing with frustrating matchups. Where are you getting 7k in corner from? I'm watching his combo videos and he looks like he's more likely to hit between 3k-4k in corner off a realistic starter, which is pretty much what everyone else gets off 5B, so even with CT and super ender I don't see that becoming 7k unless you were talking about some unlikely FC punish. So far the only combo I've seen so far that really stands out as loldamage is the 5DC 2DA midscreen combo. Getting 3.7k off 5B midscreen meterless is pretty lol but it doesn't really look realistic given how tight the timing is. Adding in CT to get 4.3k easily is pretty legit though. Regardless I'll keep messing around with him, his moves look super cool.
evid3nts Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Where are you getting 7k in corner from? I'm watching his combo videos and he looks like he's more likely to hit between 3k-4k in corner off a realistic starter, which is pretty much what everyone else gets off 5B, so even with CT and super ender I don't see that becoming 7k unless you were talking about some unlikely FC punish. So far the only combo I've seen so far that really stands out as loldamage is the 5DC 2DA midscreen combo. Getting 3.7k off 5B midscreen meterless is pretty lol but it doesn't really look realistic given how tight the timing is. Adding in CT to get 4.3k easily is pretty legit though. Regardless I'll keep messing around with him, his moves look super cool. He is referring to the 7K you get off of a midscreen counter 5C,CT combo that carries to corner if I'm not mistaken.
Kimchi Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 @justice7641 the bnb in the corner that i use off a 6A starter does 4.4k 6A>5B>3C>6DC>2DC>46B>5C>46A>5C>2DA>5DA>66>3C>6DC>2DB>46A(oki) does 4.4k this damage is much higher then what most character gets in the corner.
Pssych Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) Dunno how important these are visually, but I attempted Kagura's gatlings (Still WIP): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7cYKdiiTD6dGhyZTNrZ1h2MTA1RTcxQUppRGpkeFE#gid=0 If you see anything incorrect or something to add, let me know (I think I may have gotten some wrong). Edited November 3, 2013 by Pssych
Justice7541 Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 @justice7641 the bnb in the corner that i use off a 6A starter does 4.4k 6A>5B>3C>6DC>2DC>46B>5C>46A>5C>2DA>5DA>66>3C>6DC>2DB>46A(oki) does 4.4k this damage is much higher then what most character gets in the corner. 4.4k off a slow standing overhead really isn't that good. Compare it to like Noel, Makoto, Mu, etc. anyone who can combo off a standing overhead meterless and you usually hit between 4k-4.5k. At least you did in CSEX, I dunno about now. Even characters with vastly superior overhead mixup options (Izayoi, Rachel, Valkenhayn, etc.) still get 3-4k pretty consistently off their overheads. Honestly I think Kagura's midscreen is way scarier than his corner, he might get slightly above-average damage in the corner but his midscreen by comparison is through the roof. I'm not even sure if any other characters other than Izayoi and Jin can break 3k meterless off a 5B in corner? Maybe Azrael and Hakumen too, I dunno.
FatalCounter Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) @Justice, You can complain about anything, except damage from Kagura. Any CH C normal in the corner I get 7K with 75% of the meter jauge. Midscreen, I get at least 4K meterless. Yes his apprach game is pretty lower than the average and his C moves are slow (well for their range, they are reasonable). His overhead is too fast and lead to big damage, his jB is godlike , his Fireballs are amazing and he have good health. We can't have everything. Lol, most of the standing overhead in BB are 26 frames and Noel and Mu damage have been drastically reduced. It is really rare to do 4K damage with Mu and Noel in the Corner. I use Mu and I can tell you that. Even Relius struggles to get 4K in the corner from his 5B starter. Finally give the character some f..king time. You don't even know how top players use it! We need at least 2 months to understand how he works., not 1 week. Edited November 3, 2013 by FatalCounter
LordSpectreX Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) 4.4k off a slow standing overhead really isn't that good. Compare it to like Noel, Makoto, Mu, etc. anyone who can combo off a standing overhead meterless and you usually hit between 4k-4.5k. At least you did in CSEX, I dunno about now. Even characters with vastly superior overhead mixup options (Izayoi, Rachel, Valkenhayn, etc.) still get 3-4k pretty consistently off their overheads. Honestly I think Kagura's midscreen is way scarier than his corner, he might get slightly above-average damage in the corner but his midscreen by comparison is through the roof. I'm not even sure if any other characters other than Izayoi and Jin can break 3k meterless off a 5B in corner? Maybe Azrael and Hakumen too, I dunno. Err...6A is 22 Frames. It's also got one of the most subtlest animations. It's an incredible overhead, or at least, it's actual animation or frames aren't what's wrong with it. It's actual weakness the lack of stuff it can be gatling'd from. By comparison, Noel's 6B is 26 frames. Mu's overhead is just as fast, except that it's incredibly obvious (she leaves the ground for crying out loud.) You say Noel and Mu can get similar damage off their overheads...but Noel and Mu are the queens of damage. They almost always have been. So really, Kagura having an overhead doing similar damage is really quite a big deal. People here are trying to justify Kagura's damage output by saying he can do 7k from a 5C CH with 75% meter but that's pretty silly, a lot of character can do that. What is a great example of his damage is that he can break 3.5k from almost ANYTHING except far midscreen 2A. Even with dashing 2A, you can get 4k midscreen. Not to mention he gets oki from this stuff. Drive Counterhit drive moves midscreen do like 5k midscreen when they already have special properties like super armor and projectile shield. Edited November 3, 2013 by LordSpectreX
Justice7541 Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Regardless of whether 4.4k is really that great, for a guy who is as slow as Kagura is you'd expect his damage to be, like, massive. When you consider that even a character like Izayoi gets an easy 4k off something like TK Noir Edge (which is lol 14 frames) anywhere on screen, hitting an extra 10% or so on a 22f overhead that requires you to be point-blank and doesn't have any invul isn't really that great. I'm not really complaining, I think his midscreen damage is ridiculous and that's really good enough. I think people are heavily exaggerating how good Kagura's damage output is overall though. It's like if Arakune only did 4k off his entire curse combo and everyone was just like "well that's about what everyone else gets so it's fair." Personally, given how slow he is, I think it'd be fair if Kagura got around 5k meterless on a corner hit and 6-7k on a good FC starter.
Kimchi Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Personally, given how slow he is, I think it'd be fair if Kagura got around 5k meterless on a corner hit and 6-7k on a good FC starter. imho i think his damage is kind of too high already, but you want to give him more damage?
Bill307 Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 So, uh, someone sell this character to me? He sucks. Pick Jin.
LordSpectreX Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Regardless of whether 4.4k is really that great, for a guy who is as slow as Kagura is you'd expect his damage to be, like, massive. When you consider that even a character like Izayoi gets an easy 4k off something like TK Noir Edge (which is lol 14 frames) anywhere on screen, hitting an extra 10% or so on a 22f overhead that requires you to be point-blank and doesn't have any invul isn't really that great. I'm not really complaining, I think his midscreen damage is ridiculous and that's really good enough. I think people are heavily exaggerating how good Kagura's damage output is overall though. It's like if Arakune only did 4k off his entire curse combo and everyone was just like "well that's about what everyone else gets so it's fair." Personally, given how slow he is, I think it'd be fair if Kagura got around 5k meterless on a corner hit and 6-7k on a good FC starter. Discussion on the quality of overheads and how reactable Izayoi's j.236c is aside, how are you getting 4k with it? I've looked in the Izayoi combo thread and I've seen nothing with a j.236 or Noir Edge starter. To me, it honestly a case of risk vs reward. I think his Oki, Mixup and ability to punish through strong reads is already incredibly good. If he can kill in a couple of combos, then it would be too easy for Kagura to win. You could land a 2A midscreen, do a little corner carry combo with orb oki, do one correct mixup, then do a 6k combo with 50 meter. At that point, they've probably only got around 2-3k HP. Not to mention that most of kagura's corner combos end in oki. You've basically won the game from landing a 2A and hitting them during blockstun orb oki with his great mixup. It's too much reward when you've essentially done very little. Even if they get out, 1 CH DP and the round is over. Combine that with having one of the best DPs in the game, huge hitbox drives and things like super armor and projectile crush, and Kagura would just be insane.
Justice7541 Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Discussion on the quality of overheads and how reactable Izayoi's j.236c is aside, how are you getting 4k with it? I've looked in the Izayoi combo thread and I've seen nothing with a j.236 or Noir Edge starter. To me, it honestly a case of risk vs reward. I think his Oki, Mixup and ability to punish through strong reads is already incredibly good. If he can kill in a couple of combos, then it would be too easy for Kagura to win. You could land a 2A midscreen, do a little corner carry combo with orb oki, do one correct mixup, then do a 6k combo with 50 meter. At that point, they've probably only got around 2-3k HP. Not to mention that most of kagura's corner combos end in oki. You've basically won the game from landing a 2A and hitting them during blockstun orb oki with his great mixup. It's too much reward when you've essentially done very little. Even if they get out, 1 CH DP and the round is over. Combine that with having one of the best DPs in the game, huge hitbox drives and things like super armor and projectile crush, and Kagura would just be insane. For Izayoi you just do TK j.236C~214D j.C j.C j.236C~214D j.C j.C j.236C~D 5C j.BC j.BC j.236C~D. I can't remember if that's actually 4k but it's pretty close and it works anywhere. And with Noir Edge being 10f + jump startup and hitting on very close timing to a low 2B that also leads to around 4k on an airtight setup, it's a pretty strong mixup. Biggest problem is you need meter to RC the overhead if they guess correctly but you can also mindgames with teleport to punish their punish. And it's not even necessary since Izayoi already has dash j.C mixups, it's just another thing to make them watch out for. Meanwhile Kagura gets, what, 4k tops in corner off 5B if he wants oki ender? Izayoi gets that anywhere on screen and her mixup options after the oki are much stronger. To be fair she needs to build GA stocks first but she's also not super slow I am curious as to what sorts of mixups you are doing with Kagura off orb oki. He doesn't have enough time to jump so he gets like, 6A or 2B? Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't think a 22f overhead versus an 8f low is a super ambiguous mixup.
LordSpectreX Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're right about all the Izayoi stuff. Though it doesn't really matter how fast that TK j.236C is, since the INSTANT you leave the ground, people are gonna block high, but alright. I'm not really gonna get into a conversation about Izayoi vs Kagura since I barely know what the character does. For starters, B Orb is over +10 on block, so I don't know where you get this "he doesn't have enough time to jump". You have enough time to do jump mixup even from a A Orb. In terms of mixup, without mentioning anything fancy or hell, even combining mixup, you can do; 6A 2DA j.B j.C Crossup j.b Empty Jump Low. Tick Throw Tick Command Throw 5B 2B 2DB 2DC 6DB (Crossup) 5DA (Bait Mashing) And that's just the very basic stuff. Honestly, I don't really understand how you come to the conclusion that a subtle 22f overhead and a 8F standing low isn't ambiguous by itself. This only seems to be compared to this Izayoi TK236C that you can apparently combo from is very practical but which i'm finding it difficult to find info for. I mean, it has the same speed as Makoto's, Mu's and Hazama's overheads. And to my knowledge, no-one else has an 8f standing low. Edited November 3, 2013 by LordSpectreX
evid3nts Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 In any case I'm sure Kagura will be hit with the nerf stick by the time BBCP releases in the states if Japan complains. His high/low mixup off of orb Oki isn't as dumb as Valks knockdown and pray you can block correctly until wolf meter is gone or as dumb as Relius Ignis mixup but it is good!:-) He is more of a risk/reward character up close IMHO it's not like your opponent can't opt to late tech,burst,CA, or reversal out. Kagura is the man!!
FatalCounter Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 You guys, said it all. It is not he is our instant main, but we are trying to get something correct from this character. Like @Evidents says, Kagura is the Man!!! And like Chris Redfield always says "It is all or nothing", and this is the true definition of Kagura gameplan.
TPPR10 Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Any one want to see Kagura glitches? Then Get out of the way.
-Seo Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Any one want to see Kagura glitches? Then Get out of the way. Now I know how to make the Relius match-up easier!
LoVeBirD- Posted November 3, 2013 Posted November 3, 2013 Probably a dumb question but is A orb better than b orb oki? Some combos end in 2DB > A orb, while others end in 2DC or 2C > B orb. Which orb is better for okizeme? Can you get the same setups from A orb?
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