[CP] Noel Vermillion - Gameplay Discussion

[legacy49i]

I still feel like we should have Optic Barrel A AND Chamber Shot. There really wasn't any reason to get rid of it.

[LunaKage]

I don't mind the loss of optic barrel A, I just wish optic barrel still knocked down, seems like a waste without it.

[Alpha152]

On block d.2D crosses up after j.D?

Luna one last time lol but when you tested punishing forward tech with 6D you weren't delay teching or anything like that? You mentioned it doesn't punish back tech but both forward and back tech are able to block on the same frame.

[LunaKage]

I'm not sure why back tech can block it, its a mystery to me.

as far as delay forward tech: if someone doesn't tech, they get reset, if they forward tech they also get reset, so even if they delay forward tech, they will get reset.

don't worry, tonight at casuals I'm going to recruit someone to help me record this.

[LunaKage]

also yes, if an opponent blocks j.D close range, d.2D will cross up a crouching opponent, this is helped by the fact that j.D now has a bit of forward momentum.

[Alpha152]

Forward and back tech are both able to block on the 18th frame of teching. When I use 5D it will catch both techs, but 6D does not. There's a 2F difference between both moves so if you're able to punish one direction you should be able to punish the other direction as well. And vice versa if you're not able to punish back tech, then forward tech should not be punishable either. lol Someone else try this please, not knowing which is correct is :/

[LunaKage]

its probably because of thr distance needed from the corner to punish forward rolls.

[LunaKage]

Alright so apparently 6D does punish back rolls... maybe I always just mistime it when I fight our local Kagura player lol. It does work on him though, here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjNNDcLHPSs&feature=youtu.be

[Alpha152]

Luna, please set the dummy to block when you're testing this and see if you get the same results. The 3rd column from the left and 2nd option down, either set it to block all (1st option to the right) or block only first hit (3rd from the right)

[LunaKage]

hmm... ok I think I see the problem, they can block the 6D, but what I'm wondering is if it's possible for a human player to block after a forward roll, I know that sounds silly, but I've never had anyone block that before in that situation, so I'm wondering if it has something to do with the command for a forward roll being 6A/B/C. Or maybe my opponents just aren't fast enough.

Either way this makes me sad, guess I'll only use this oki setup situationally after all. Not that I expected to rely on this 100% of the time, since I personally don't like going into drive much on offense.

I guess I'll see how my Extend setup works, since I found a way to do it in CP.

[Alpha152]

You are able to block after roll teching, just hold back. I've tested this with dummy and recording so I'm absolutely positive. Not that this is bad at all because it still forces blocking and they cannot reversal during roll recovery. Also, this does not punish down tech but if they try to delay tech too long then yes it will reset them for not teching. Just keep in mind the difference between down tech and no tech.

[LunaKage]

Yeah I know the difference. Quick Get-Ups can be a good way to throw off a lot of people if they are too comfortable with someone who just neutral/emergency techs.

[LunaKage]

Like I said though, I have a setup I'm working on that is identical to my extend setup, it works midscreen too, but there's no corner carry involved like there was in Extend, so I'll probably stick to it in the corner.

At this point though I'm thinking it might just be more beneficial to 22B and just alternate between the many setups we seem to have, and if you don't want to risk committing to the setup, then you can always just run up and 2B, which seems to be a good choice in most situations.

Again I apologize for the lack of research, I guess that's the problem with doing nothing but playing against opponents without using training mode much.

[Alpha152]

Would you mind explaining how your setup will work?

And no problem, I'm just glad we have a definitive answer and no more confusion.

[LunaKage]

Well, the same way we could use Assault Through at the end of certain combos with the intention of whiffing it for frame advantage on neutral tech that was possible in Extend, is also possible in CP. ending a combo a bit early by using a d.6B > AT during a combo that hasn't been timed out will cause the opponent to hit the ground before they can tech, at this point the AT will whiff through the tech, and we will be at frame advantage, and we will be at the perfect distance to set up a grab/grab bait kind of mixup if we choose to commit to it.

Learning how late you can do this is key though, since if the combo is maxed out, then your opponent will be able to tech in the air after getting hit by d.6B.

Using this setup I've been able to get upwards of 4k in the corner off of a successful throw bait using j.D, though on bigger characters you get less damage, since the combo requires using AT to put the opponent back into the corner, this is important since we don't have j.D as combo filler during this combo. On larger characters, we need to omit Muzzle Filter, and use a more generic combo. But here's the combo:

CH j.D > 214A > 2B > 6C > 4D > 214D > 2B > 6C > 5D > d.6B > d.5C > d.6B > 236D > 6C(2) > 6B > 22BxN

Also, to give you an idea, using this combo, you can go into AT at after the very last d.6B and it will still work the way it is supposed to, so it's not like you'll be crippling your combos by using this setup, we just need to find the possibilities.

[Alpha152]

Ah nice, just be wary though when going for a j.D throw bait. Yes it will work if you condition them to look out for a tick throw after AT whiff oki, but even then players who throw OS can punish the blocked j.D (unless you SR ) TRM is much safer in that situation I think, and nets almost identical results minus 200-400 damage.

[LunaKage]

Yeah man I know all of that, that's why I said "commit to". Sometimes I like to take chances, sometimes I like to play it safe, too much of one without any of the other is no fun ;3

[LunaKage]

Short tutorial about different ways to end corner combos with supers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFA7LYgl0yg&feature=youtu.be

[Alpha152]

Good stuff

[legacy49i]

I feel like I've done corner combos that do more damage than that. If I'm right, I'll post it. I don't use what you have in that video. What I use is more like a CSEX-CP hybrid combo.

Also, all your stuff starts with 6A. Do you have any videos for corner combos from crouching hitstun, 6B, or FC 4D/j.4D?

[LunaKage]

That was only one combo with multiple enders. The only combo I did was off of a 5B starter. I don't personally have any videos of those starters, but I know plenty of combos starting from them. The video was simply for demonstration of the enders, so I used the same starter and combo route for all of them.

Max I've gotten with Noel after a practical starter was 7.7k off of counter hit 5C in the corner:

CH 5C > 214A > 5B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.6B > d.5C > d.6B > 22C > 66C > 4D > 214D > 6C(2) > OD > Fenrir > Fenrir

[legacy49i]

Yeah, so I lied. What I was doing didn't do nearly as much damage. However, is there any reason you do 6C directly after the Assault Through instead of 2B - 6C?

[LunaKage]

You should really only do 2B if it's absolutely required, at the end of longer combos 2B may cause them to tech before 6C can hit them, also it doesn't really add any extra damage.

[legacy49i]

...also it doesn't really add any extra damage.

What about Heat gain? Worth consideration?

Also, after, say, a throw or Muzzle Flitter, is it better to 5B or 2B to continue the combo? I see that 5B will still hit a downed opponent. I'm still very used to 2B - 6C, but it seems that they want you to start using 5B - 5C now. Any proration benefits or whatever that would make one option definitively better than the other?

Edited November 14, 2013 by legacy49i

[LunaKage]

5B leads to better damage, though keep in mind that on certain characters you NEED to 2B, like Amane since 5B whiffs, or Tager because he's so tall that you land a few frames later after the Muzzle Filter, so you don't have enough frames to 5B.