Chrono Phantasma Speculations/Theories [rules updated 10/14]

[Zedar90]

But the anime showed that in episode 3 Saya was walking casually with terumi,plus her eyes weren't shown, so Izanami must have been awakened and then went back to sleep until CS. So does Hakumen know about Izanami possessing Saya?

At that time he could simply had broken her mind, not necessarily made her being possessed yet.

I think Hakumen now Saya is possessed by Izanami, or at least who Izanami is. All Rachel had to say something in the style of "she have woken up".

[Master Of Chaos]

I really doubt Izanami was sleeping all that time. She might have had to rest for a bit every now and then, but she couldn't have been sleeping for several years. The Imperator had to have been active at least some of the time.

...Why would Hakumen not know that Izanami is possessing Saya? He called her Izanami to her face. He tried to one shot her with goddamn Time Killer. There's no way he can't know.

[Zedar90]

I really doubt Izanami was sleeping all that time. She might have had to rest for a bit every now and then, but she couldn't have been sleeping for several years. The Imperator had to have been active at least some of the time.

...Why would Hakumen not know that Izanami is possessing Saya? He called her Izanami to her face. He tried to one shot her with goddamn Time Killer. There's no way he can't know.

Why should the Izanami had to be active? No one knows who the Imperator is and looks like and only follows the order with right seal. And if they must to show off the Imperator looks like, it would be enough to show a mind broken Saya with Phantom at her side looking over her so everything goes as planned.

[Toxin45]

At that time he could simply had broken her mind, not necessarily made her being possessed yet.

I think Hakumen now Saya is possessed by Izanami, or at least who Izanami is. All Rachel had to say something in the style of "she have woken up".

Yeah but still remember that in a story about the chruch with Celicia,Ragna,Jin,and Saya in which has a barrier which that the trio might have ended up getting outside so I think Terumi broke Saya earlier after she got lost and allowed Izanami to posses her which did caused her to be sick or sicker even further and when she was sleeping she could have been trying to dominant Saya's body or wait until the time loops are over in CT.

Also Ep-12 Had Noel in pain of seeing Imperator "Saya" which furthers the theory of Noel carry some parts of Saya's soul.

Also I heard that Ragna nor Jin did not realized that Celica is the sister who raised them. Is that true?

Edited January 2, 2014 by Toxin45

[Zedar90]

Also I heard that Ragna nor Jin did not realized that Celica is the sister who raised them. Is that true?

They get reminded of the Sister by Celica in the climax, that is all. Ragna would probably realize it if they weren't in such a hurry in the last episodes.

[Toxin45]

They get reminded of the Sister by Celica in the climax, that is all. Ragna would probably realize it if they weren't in such a hurry in the last episodes.

Yeah, but you 'hadn't about the comments I said before.

[Shinhwa]

What it says in MC and the 25th art book is: "When the system that manage the world "Takamagahara" observes that the fusion of Ragna and Nu gives birth to the Black Beast that will lead to the destruction of the world, it rewinds the time to the year 2100." so while it is the Takamagahara-system that creates the loop you could say it is really Amaterasu who creates it since she forces Takamagahara to do that since they have no other option.

So... does this mean the "Story" that Amaterasu wrote was the timeline between AD 2100 to 2199 that went on for like 750 times?

Unless there were occurrences included where the "Actors" did break the time loop like how we know from CT to CP but they failed to break through the permanent ending and always ended up "Killing the Girl who is the monster". However this can't be true as even Rachel stated that she had never seen before an event where the Time loop between AD 2100 to 2199 was broken, where the True Ending in CT was the first occurrence

Also

as for Saya, to my knowledge, which I have stated already several times in pages back,

Ragna had seen Saya acting not her usual self one day, but because he couldn't really tell that much, he ignored it, which however triggered the tragedy that fell on Celica and Ragna, where Saya gave Yukianesa to Jin, who used it to destroy the barrier that was around the church, which let Terumi enter the area then kill Celica, then take Saya and Jin.

As for the anime, the scene where Noel suddenly felt intense pain after seeing Izanami adds to the theory that Noel could be Saya, but the fact we can't get off is that Ragna, Jin and even Rachel still designates Izanami as "Saya" (Rachel designates her as Ragna's sister), although it is possible the feat that Saya had done to herself where she transferred her soul to Noel/Mu-12's vessel was something not even Rachel knew, but it is also possible Rachel already knows but is hiding this fact, as it is a fact that Rachel had brought herself towards Noel in the past and helped her too, also the fact Noel is among the trio who is known to have the power to change the world, as seen by Jubei and Rachel's statements.

As for Ragna and Jin not realizing Celica = Sister, it is a fact as Celica that they right now know is like 15~16 years old or something while the Sister they knew was an old granny. They did get vibes of familiarity from Celica being the Sister but they still haven't been able to get any confirmation that Celica = Sister. This is weird as they lived together in that church for a long time, but..... THEY NEVER KNEW HER NAME?! o_O

Well they were children and a sister is always called a Sister in the church and not by their name usually, especially when she is a high figure, so it is understandable. If they ask Jubei about it (who had saved them and took them to Celica's church), the answer would come right away, but considering they never had any chance to meet each other in CP at all (excluding Jin training with Jubei before he even met Celica), it is understandable, but in the next game, I am sure the answer will come out to them.

Also, I have analyzed through re-watching the Story Modes and other factors regarding Saya, and here is the fact:

Noel = Had received nearly every features that Saya had in the past:

1. Saya was a shy girl. Noel was also a shy girl

2. Saya was a terrible cook. Noel is also a terrible cook (ASTRAL FINISH!)

3. Saya was blonde, had green eyes (just like past Ragna and Jin) = Except for some reason in the anime, Ragna had stated that their eye colors are different. The color tone may have been different.

Also, for Noel showing personality features that Saya had:

1. Noel showed close familiarity to Ragna and even stated she feels like he is her family member (Even in the anime it is shown that Noel had stated that Ragna was someone who ran off on his own all the time).

2. Noel felt familiarity from Celica, being the Sister that took care of Ragna, Saya and Jin

3. Ragna stated that the way Noel talks and acts is identical to how Saya was in the past

Pretty much saying, Noel had inherited nearly all features that Saya had. The only factor we can say for now is that "Saya's Memories" is currently sealed but is starting to awaken, which means if Noel were to awaken Saya's memories and such fully, she would pretty much turn 100% Saya.

As for the other clone, Nu, despite being Saya's clone, only thing she had received was fragments of Saya's memories that were really vague and only knew that Ragna was there (also Jin but he was really really vague to the point unlike Ragna, Jin's name wasn't even remembered within that memory).

Personality = not inherited

Body features = not inherited excluding facial features, and Nu's breasts are bigger. Hair color, eye color and hair style was not inherited.

Memories = Only memories she received was of Ragna pretty much but even then it was too vague to tell whether Ragna was the original's brother or anything like that, and unlike Noel who felt familiarity and family-like feelings from Ragna, Nu doesn't have any of such things. Only received memories that Ragna was a nice and kind person and had seen Jin in some memories but it was as if seeing some stranger in a photograph.

Also, during CP it is revealed that:

Izanami, who has Saya's vessel, does not attack Celica despite being able to do so. Since Saya and Izanami mixed too much, the feelings got mixed vaguely that she unknowingly doesn't attack Celica also the fact Saya's vessel longs for Ragna, which seems to be why Izanami did not attack Ragna during CS's True Ending, where even Izanami states that because at the time they did not fuse properly yet, the vessel's feelings are getting in the way.

As stated above, Noel somewhat remembers the Sister that took care of the siblings, but as Saya's memories was still sealed at the time, she didn't really get what that memory was but had felt some confidence from Celica just like how Ragna and Jin felt it from her.

However, Nu does not have any of such things and actually attacks Celica (although this was because she was normally supposed to kill Noel but Celica tried to cover Noel) and shows hostility towards her during Episode 18. Pretty much saying = Nu is just a clone who had received a few fragments of Saya's past memories and that's it. Rest are her own soul and memories and features. She does not share any personalities or much features from Saya except her face and the small fragments of memories.

The thing that needs to be cleared up is if Saya is existing as a Double (one side in the original vessel, controlled by Izanami, and other side being in Noel), or if Saya's vessel just has memories remaining in it even though Saya's soul itself had left the body to go into Noel/Mu-12's body.

The theory about Saya's vessel still having memories and feelings remaining in her is backed up by Lambda's Story Mode from CS, where despite Lambda's soul having died, when Nu's soul goes into the body and awakens, Lambda's memories had remained within the body that Nu thought those were her memories and acted as if she was really Lambda and felt pain from those memories where Kokonoe had stated that those are not her memories, but because it was too unstable, she was left no choice to erase Lambda's entire memories as it was being mixed with Nu's soul and memories too much. Also because Nu's soul was able to go into Lambda's body, it also means that same can happen for Saya's soul going into Noel/Mu-12's body. Even Relius had stated that their vessel is the same, which probably points to the fact they all originated from the same place: Saya.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Shinhwa

[Zedar90]

So... does this mean the "Story" that Amaterasu wrote was the timeline between AD 2100 to 2199 that went on for like 750 times?

Unless there were occurrences included where the "Actors" did break the time loop like how we know from CT to CP but they failed to break through the permanent ending and always ended up "Killing the Girl who is the monster". However this can't be true as even Rachel stated that she had never seen before an event where the Time loop between AD 2100 to 2199 was broken, where the True Ending in CT was the first occurrence

As for Ragna and Jin not realizing Celica = Sister, it is a fact as Celica that they right now know is like 15~16 years old or something while the Sister they knew was an old granny. They did get vibes of familiarity from Celica being the Sister but they still haven't been able to get any confirmation that Celica = Sister. This is weird as they lived together in that church for a long time, but..... THEY NEVER KNEW HER NAME?! o_O

We don't know where the story that Amaterasu is writing is supposed to end. Maybe the loop was created so that the story never reaches the end (didn't a system voice in CT say that she sends all data to Takamagahara?). The loop was created so that they could prevent the emergence of the Black Beast.

Also, Jubei did consider if he should call Sister Celica or not, but in the end he decided to call her what he got used to call her, i.e. Sister.

Also, it is said in the Library that the reason why Nu is so attached to Ragna is because of Saya's soul.

[Master Of Chaos]

I'd like to point out that the differences between Noel, and Nu/Lambda can probably be explained by the fact that Noel was spared the fate of being tempered when she was born, as the facility was destroyed before she was "finished". She was adopted after being found wondering around the wreckage of the futility. Her personality and mental state were untouched, and she was allowed to live a relatively normal life and grow into a person. Nu and Lambda were not so lucky. They were fully programmed and built to completion, and as such do not have the full memories and personality traits Saya had. I'd also like to point out that Lambda had many of the same design traits that Noel has-blond hair and the same face, and IIRC she acted similar to Saya before having her memories erased. (Also, breast size really isn't the best argument for this kind of series, that depends on Mori's/the art designer's fetishes at the time of design. Nu's breasts got bigger between CT and CP for no discernible reason)

The theory about Saya's vessel still having memories and feelings remaining in her is backed up by Lambda's Story Mode from CS, where despite Lambda's soul having died, when Nu's soul goes into the body and awakens, Lambda's memories had remained within the body that Nu thought those were her memories and acted as if she was really Lambda and felt pain from those memories where Kokonoe had stated that those are not her memories, but because it was too unstable, she was left no choice to erase Lambda's entire memories as it was being mixed with Nu's soul and memories too much. Also because Nu's soul was able to go into Lambda's body, it also means that same can happen for Saya's soul going into Noel/Mu-12's body. Even Relius had stated that their vessel is the same, which probably points to the fact they all originated from the same place: Saya.

Is that even possible, though? I remember the attempt at moving Nu's soul into Lambda's being a painful process that required the effort of Kokonoe and multiple Sector Seven scentists to pull off. I doubt that Saya would be able to do that by herself, and who would do it for her? I doubt that Relius and Hazama would be so kind.

[Shinhwa]

I'd like to point out that the differences between Noel, and Nu/Lambda can probably be explained by the fact that Noel was spared the fate of being tempered when she was born, as the facility was destroyed before she was "finished". She was adopted after being found wondering around the wreckage of the futility. Her personality and mental state were untouched, and she was allowed to live a relatively normal life and grow into a person. Nu and Lambda were not so lucky. They were fully programmed and built to completion, and as such do not have the full memories and personality traits Saya had. I'd also like to point out that Lambda had many of the same design traits that Noel has-blond hair and the same face, and IIRC she acted similar to Saya before having her memories erased. (Also, breast size really isn't the best argument for this kind of series, that depends on Mori's/the art designer's fetishes at the time of design. Nu's breasts got bigger between CT and CP for no discernible reason)

Noel/Mu was still tempered kind of, but it was half complete due to Take-Mikazuchi's attack, so her smelting was not finished.

Breast size thing was just an extra =w=

Is that even possible, though? I remember the attempt at moving Nu's soul into Lambda's being a painful process that required the effort of Kokonoe and multiple Sector Seven scentists to pull off. I doubt that Saya would be able to do that by herself, and who would do it for her? I doubt that Relius and Hazama would be so kind.

Huh...? The Story Mode showed that only Kokonoe was in front of Lambda who had awakened then when Lambda awakened (Well Nu), she went into a total pain by remembering the experiment that was done to Lambda, then Kokonoe yelled out to her that is not her memories, but Nu just went on and on being "HATE HATE HATE", where Kokonoe was forced to totally erase Lambda's memories.

We don't know where the story that Amaterasu is writing is supposed to end. Maybe the loop was created so that the story never reaches the end (didn't a system voice in CT say that she sends all data to Takamagahara?). The loop was created so that they could prevent the emergence of the Black Beast.

Also, Jubei did consider if he should call Sister Celica or not, but in the end he decided to call her what he got used to call her, i.e. Sister.

Also, it is said in the Library that the reason why Nu is so attached to Ragna is because of Saya's soul.

The thing is though, according to the story that Rachel said, Amaterasu did finish the story several times but due to it ending unsatisfactory, she had erased the story and re-wrote it again several times.

Even Izanami and Terumi had said that the "time loop" or the "shitty dream" had gone for several times.

So this really brings up the question from When to When did the time loop take place so many times if it was not the Time Loop from AD 2100 to 2199 (CT timeline).

And well yeah, Nu's affections towards Ragna does come from Saya =w=;

Edited January 2, 2014 by Shinhwa

[Toxin45]

I'd like to point out that the differences between Noel, and Nu/Lambda can probably be explained by the fact that Noel was spared the fate of being tempered when she was born, as the facility was destroyed before she was "finished". She was adopted after being found wondering around the wreckage of the futility. Her personality and mental state were untouched, and she was allowed to live a relatively normal life and grow into a person. Nu and Lambda were not so lucky. They were fully programmed and built to completion, and as such do not have the full memories and personality traits Saya had. I'd also like to point out that Lambda had many of the same design traits that Noel has-blond hair and the same face, and IIRC she acted similar to Saya before having her memories erased. (Also, breast size really isn't the best argument for this kind of series, that depends on Mori's/the art designer's fetishes at the time of design. Nu's breasts got bigger between CT and CP for no discernible reason)

Is that even possible, though? I remember the attempt at moving Nu's soul into Lambda's being a painful process that required the effort of Kokonoe and multiple Sector Seven scentists to pull off. I doubt that Saya would be able to do that by herself, and who would do it for her? I doubt that Relius and Hazama would be so kind.

Rachel dude Rachel.

[Toxin45]

Noel/Mu was still tempered kind of, but it was half complete due to Take-Mikazuchi's attack, so her smelting was not finished.

Breast size thing was just an extra =w=

Huh...? The Story Mode showed that only Kokonoe was in front of Lambda who had awakened then when Lambda awakened (Well Nu), she went into a total pain by remembering the experiment that was done to Lambda, then Kokonoe yelled out to her that is not her memories, but Nu just went on and on being "HATE HATE HATE", where Kokonoe was forced to totally erase Lambda's memories.

The thing is though, according to the story that Rachel said, Amaterasu did finish the story several times but due to it ending unsatisfactory, she had erased the story and re-wrote it again several times.

Even Izanami and Terumi had said that the "time loop" or the "shitty dream" had gone for several times.

So this really brings up the question from When to When did the time loop take place so many times if it was not the Time Loop from AD 2100 to 2199 (CT timeline).

And well yeah, Nu's affections towards Ragna does come from Saya =w=;

I think it is the XBlaze timeline and also yeah Nu is technically saya but the real Saya is Noel/Mu Nu just simply has some fragments and Yeah Saya's original body does some memories which caused some problems for her so she decided to get it controled by getting Ragna on her side. The reason why Nu is so yandere is that Izanami and Terumi caused her some pain and twisted her a bit.

[Shinhwa]

Rachel dude Rachel.

Your point?

I think it is the XBlaze timeline

How many times do we have to stuff in your head?

MASTER UNIT WAS NOT AMATERASU DURING XBLAZE.

[Master Of Chaos]

My bad, I only went through Lambda's story one time and didn't retain everything to memory.

Still, doing something like that has to be a complicated process, or at least would require plenty of power or a strong power source (The Azure or Magic, for example). I really don't think that Saya could have moved her soul over to Noel's body on her own, and it would have had to happen sometime after Noel was born...A very long time after Saya was possessed by Izanami.

Rachel dude Rachel.

When the hell would she have done this? For that matter, if she would have had the opportunity to move Saya's soul, why not just rescue Saya herself from Terumi? It doesn't fit.

[Toxin45]

Your point?

How many times do we have to stuff in your head?

MASTER UNIT WAS NOT AMATERASU DURING XBLAZE.

Okay but some Xblaze had something to do with Amateratsu's actions.

[Toxin45]

My bad, I only went through Lambda's story one time and didn't retain everything to memory.

Still, doing something like that has to be a complicated process, or at least would require plenty of power or a strong power source (The Azure or Magic, for example). I really don't think that Saya could have moved her soul over to Noel's body on her own, and it would have had to happen sometime after Noel was born...A very long time after Saya was possessed by Izanami.

When the hell would she have done this? For that matter, if she would have had the opportunity to move Saya's soul, why not just rescue Saya herself from Terumi? It doesn't fit.

Well I guess they maid a mistake and accidentally had Saya's soul into noel/mu.

[Master Of Chaos]

Who the hell is they. Why would they have Saya's soul. When was this mistake made. How can you accidentally transfer a soul.

[Toxin45]

Who the hell is they. Why would they have Saya's soul. When was this mistake made. How can you accidentally transfer a soul.

I guess the scientists working on N.11-13 and Saya might have been struggling against Izanami so they decided to get rid of her by sending her in Noel/Mu's vessel.However Nu had some fragments of Saya's soul inside her while the full Soul of Saya was transferred into Noel/Mu.

[Shinhwa]

My bad, I only went through Lambda's story one time and didn't retain everything to memory.

Still, doing something like that has to be a complicated process, or at least would require plenty of power or a strong power source (The Azure or Magic, for example). I really don't think that Saya could have moved her soul over to Noel's body on her own, and it would have had to happen sometime after Noel was born...A very long time after Saya was possessed by Izanami.

Actually, it's not really a "long time" as Terumi's attack took place in AD 2192 while Noel was created 2194, but as for Nu to Lambda, that was done scientifically, but for Saya moving into Noel, it is possible she did it on her own somehow, but who knows. It has become fact that the possibility that Noel is Saya but the method is unknown and since it wasn't done by someone else (it is possible someone who was part of the process may have done it secretly for some reason but who knows), only other method would be that she somehow did it herself.

Okay but some Xblaze had something to do with Amateratsu's actions.

Like what?

I guess the scientists working on N.11-13 and Saya might have been struggling against Izanami so they decided to get rid of her by sending her in Noel/Mu's vessel.However Nu had some fragments of Saya's soul inside her while the full Soul of Saya was transferred into Noel/Mu.

you aren't making sense....

[Zedar90]

Actually, it's not really a "long time" as Terumi's attack took place in AD 2192 while Noel was created 2194, but as for Nu to Lambda, that was done scientifically, but for Saya moving into Noel, it is possible she did it on her own somehow, but who knows. It has become fact that the possibility that Noel is Saya but the method is unknown and since it wasn't done by someone else (it is possible someone who was part of the process may have done it secretly for some reason but who knows), only other method would be that she somehow did it herself.

Someone should had something to do with Noel. Is it still said who put Bolverk on Noel as limiter? And who had those guns anyway. From what Seven said it could either lead to that he killed Three and hid them or they simply disappeared during the battle with Black Beast.

[Toxin45]

Actually, it's not really a "long time" as Terumi's attack took place in AD 2192 while Noel was created 2194, but as for Nu to Lambda, that was done scientifically, but for Saya moving into Noel, it is possible she did it on her own somehow, but who knows. It has become fact that the possibility that Noel is Saya but the method is unknown and since it wasn't done by someone else (it is possible someone who was part of the process may have done it secretly for some reason but who knows), only other method would be that she somehow did it herself.

Like what?

Something must have happened in that time of XBlaze that caused the birth of the Master Unit Amatertasu Like Izanami attacking and many people died.

Also answer me this thing

How was Ragna,Jin,and Saya created?

They were hinted to be artfical so, I would guess they were maid from the DNA's of Sechs and Achit.

But Ragna and Jin had the powers of the Azure and Order Like Toya and Akira,So

Ragna and Jin's souls are recycled from Toya and Akira's.

So what are your thoughts?

[kylehyde]

Now I understand why Chaoschao finds meanigless dribble on this thread to be so frustrating.

I always figured that Noel, Lambda, and Nu where their own persons. I just figured since they were copies of Saya they had just retained some of her memories. Never really thought that Saya herself had transfered her soul to any of the clones.

Plus Izanami does say at the end that Ragna will never save "her" so I'm guessing that the host body of Izanami is in fact the real Saya with soul and all.

Edited January 2, 2014 by kylehyde

[Master Of Chaos]

Actually, it's not really a "long time" as Terumi's attack took place in AD 2192 while Noel was created 2194, but as for Nu to Lambda, that was done scientifically, but for Saya moving into Noel, it is possible she did it on her own somehow, but who knows. It has become fact that the possibility that Noel is Saya but the method is unknown and since it wasn't done by someone else (it is possible someone who was part of the process may have done it secretly for some reason but who knows), only other method would be that she somehow did it herself.

The idea that Saya somehow transferred herself out of Izanami makes about as much sense as the crack theory that Hazama and Rachel are the parents of the trio and that Hazama does what he does so he can get her attention back from their children. Between the fact that almost anything that points to this theory can be explained by already mentioned details from the series and that Izanami herself said that Saya is still inside the body (Her comments about the "vessel" not liking Hazama and adoring Ragna), I don't see how this can make sense. Besides, it would cheapen the whole "I'm a person too even if I'm a clone" devlopement that Noel's been through, and that's one of the few things that people don't hate her for.

[Lucalibur]

Besides, it would cheapen the whole "I'm a person too even if I'm a clone" devlopement that Noel's been through, and that's one of the few things that people don't hate her for.

Actually, that is one of the main reasons as to why I hate Noel!

[Toxin45]

Now I understand why Chaoschao finds meanigless dribble on this thread to be so frustrating.

I always figured that Noel, Lambda, and Nu where their own persons. I just figured since they were copies of Saya they had just retained some of her memories. Never really thought that Saya herself had transfered her soul to any of the clones.

Plus Izanami does say at the end that Ragna will never save "her" so I'm guessing that the host body of Izanami is in fact the real Saya with soul and all.

Well according to Zedar in Libarary mode the reason why Nu is so attracted to Ragna is because of Saya's soul within her so Yeah.