[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[D.R.F.]

Soooo.... Hibiki when?

Fuck that jin/kagura lover

[mAc Chaos]

Remember to keep the discussion to gameplay and not character wishlists.

[NecroTheReaper]

Is there any chance of them making ranked default to a less laggy stage or does that already exist and I'm just stupids?

[Poultrygeist]

are u sure cause for 1.1 they released the changes early didn't they? i thought they would do somewhat the same for 2.0.

1.1 was a patch that they slowly released character changelogs for over a period of time.  2.0 is being touted as a much larger update so I guess they want to be secretive of it.  I couldn't tell you why it is the way it is.

[StylisH]

Even if they do that, they always do seem to leave a couple things outta their change logs. (Or at least that's how it was for 1.1)

 

As it is now they seem to be keeping hushed up about a lot, so we'll prolly just have to wait until October 9th

Pretty much. I remain firmly in the "wait and see what happens" camp.

I'm not saying have faith, just have patience.

[Ventus Tatshima]

Anyways Back OT.... wow, there's literally nothing new to talk about.... I guess any new info concerning GCOD?

[skd]

I may have been a bit sarcastic, but I'm not trying to insult anyone. Essentially what was going on was an argument between if pressure was mixup, which I believe personally is no.

 

lmfao. im going to bold some terms because apparently people cant make this connection.

 

let me put it this way. By /virtue/ of his pressure his mixup becomes stronger not that the pressure and mixup are parts of the same thing, but there is a removal of other options to escape the mixup and mitigate damage, because at the end of the day you want to block to NOT GET HIT its a LOT EASIER TO GET HIT because your VIABLE DEFENSIVE RESPONSES are INVALIDATED.

 

Ill spell it out.

 

Lets look at the situation where ragna is trying to do empty jump airdash or low, vs when relius tries to do it with doll cover. The doll cover adds to the strength of the mixup.

 

lets talk about RAW MIXUP eliminating the ease of getting into these situations, and lets just say im deciding to "defend" against a mixup (this does NOT mean sit and choose whether to block high or low)

 

Vs Relius, guesssssss what! im blocking the doll, then i have to block the high low mixup on the airdash. Im stuck in blockstun. From a /purely defensive/ standpoint, what are my options? Block high...block low....yeah. Might it cost doll meter? fuck yeah it should, its a stronger mixup because of it. Lets say ragna airdash jC is about the same speed (its a little slower but for the sake of the argument). The key difference? The LACK OF "PRESSURE" from the doll. Does this WEAKEN THE MIXUP why YES IT DOES. Why should i respect Ragna's airdash mixup? He could do a falling normal? Guess what. i can fuzzy jump (read: option select) that. I could delayed mash a normal that would beat both the overhead and low within the timing where if i was in blockstun from the falling normal, it wouldnt come out. I could straight up block high, or block low. If the high and low dont connect on the same frame, even better. The situation is MUCH nicer to deal with defensively. I have way more options, forget about the risk reward of it. Hell, its more likely that ill get out of the mixup than ill respect it. To call out those 4 outcomes, Ragna would have to commit to different kinds of pressure. If he intends to guess towards the safest options, he effectively loses a lot of the "mixup" situation. So like, what?

 

If you don't think that adds to the strength of the mixup, just tell me and ill give up.

 

myoron do you not think im being sincere? im not arguing with you and telling you youre wrong because i want to argue, or i want to feel myself, it is because you are actually wrong. like the key concepts i brought up in my post that seemingly flew over people's heads were there because i wanted to help clarify misconceptions. Im trying to help here.

[Myoro]

Newer than that one stream they showed? nope. But in that stream it looked hecka nerfed, with more recovery and less OD time, so I can go on with living life not worrying about random ODRaid punishing my 5A>5B for 6K.

 

The way Ara's OD worked in the loke, ODRaid will still be useful as a reversal if they have any curse gauge.

[Myoro]

myoron. Like myoro +moron? Are you really that pissed O_o"? (I mean it's a sick burn but still... =/)

 

Yeah I get all of that, and shoot I even agree with it. It's common knowledge that different aspects of a character's gameplay help one another. Yeah we can get people blocking and yeah, you can't easily disrespect our mix-up with dashes and crap, but when it comes down to blocking it high vs low vs mash vs grab break, I don't think it's nearly as potent.

 

Does having Ignis keeping us safe make any of our mix-up options less react-able? not at all unless you're doing some sneaky exclamation mark hiding with certain Ignis sprites.

 

To me and I'm guessing to Necro, Mix-up is about how effective you are at cracking through the opponent's guard once you have them blocking. We don't have instant overheads, lightning quick command grabs, Valk 50/50s, or Black Hole, so opening a blocking opponent up is difficult for Relius, especially inexpensively. Yes other characters need to take WAY more risks in pressure, YES other characters are far easier to disrespect or escape, Yes we do have an A+ set of highs and lows and other normals. But just reacting to our high/low/grab/unblockable stuff leaves us at a big loss.

 

I'm not trying to be malicious here or anything. Thanks for reading and responding. I think I understand your position now. -_-

 

The sincerity thing was addressing crossfire who seemed to think we were playing some sort of game by posting our thoughts here. I didn't believe you were posting anything for any malignant reason.

[Errol]

I would just look at it in terms of outcomes. If you touch someone with full meter, what are the odds you break em down and what are the odds they get out?  Command grab or not, it's much higher than it is for tsubaki. Or bang. Command grabs are super risky...

 

it's the same way I feel about taokaka. people say she's so easy to block, but it honestly doesn't matter. what're your odds of getting out vs eventually getting knocked down?  When you look at it this way there is no difference between mixup and pressure, it all boils down to one number. 

[NecroTheReaper]

Of course forcing someone to block will make mixup in general better, but you make it sound like no one is ever prepared to block. There's no gimmicks in Relius pressure, no command grabs, no IOH immediate-decide-right-now-your-life-depends-on-it mixups.

I feel like you are definitely right but I also don't feel like what I'm saying is wrong if ypu get that

[greatfernman]

To me and I'm guessing to Necro, Mix-up is about how effective you are at cracking through the opponent's guard once you have them blocking.

it's easier to open the opponent up when the opponent can't OS the incoming mix-up. You're actually agreeing with SKD

[Myoro]

I would just look at it in terms of outcomes. If you touch someone with full meter, what are the odds you break em down and what are the odds they get out?  Command grab or not, it's much higher than it is for tsubaki. Or bang. Command grabs are super risky...

 

it's the same way I feel about taokaka. people say she's so easy to block, but it honestly doesn't matter. what're your odds of getting out vs eventually getting knocked down?  When you look at it this way there is no difference between mixup and pressure, it all boils down to one number. 

 

This is kinda what I meant by quantity mix-up vs quality mix-up. Your stuff is easy to block, so you keep trying till they trip up real bad and you get through or they get impatient and do something punishable. '3'

 

The difference between the two for me is that for each pressure reset Rel does, the reward for breaking through their guard goes down, whereas tao's limitation is that she's less safe and has way less HP and confirms into less. '<'

 

I'm not claiming to understand how Tao works BTW -_-"

[Myoro]

it's easier to open the opponent up when the opponent can't OS the incoming mix-up. You're actually agreeing with SKD

 

Yeah, like Not_Lunaris said, the ability to make anything safe is good for Mix-up. What'd SKD say? I musta' missed that.

[mAc Chaos]

SKD = Not Lunaris.

[Errol]

It's just that defense isn't just blocking. my personal opinion is that the biggest difference between overheads like Tsubaki's, and overheads like Mu, or Nus, or Hazamas, is that there are more options.. All kinds of things that people do can beat tsubaki's overhead.

 

I usually don't have problems with hitting people with tsubaki that are just blocking low or high. Same is true when I play Orie in UNIE (27 frame overhead !)

 

but against tsubaki's overhead, you can:

backdash

upback

mash dp

mash 2a

mash throw

mash 5c

OD thru and punish

block

 

against relius 6a you can

mash dp

block

 

And if you block you're in for more. having more options makes it more likely you'll get out on even a single mixup.

 

And you get to use some higher quality mixups because they can't be disrespected.

 

You wouldn't say Chie has bad mixup in P4U would you? the airdash /low that can't be disrespected is the same as relius.

[skd]

You are constantly missing the point of my posts. And my name shouldn't mean anything, the concepts of what I am talking about should speak for themselves

[Myoro]

SKD = Not Lunaris.

 

Ah... I need to start paying attention to PSNs. By the way SKD, you made me and my friends very happy with that stint as "SKD's Final Form" Azrael. Infinite points for getting Love Phantom off in a real match. My Azrael friend Idolizes you for that.

 

It's just that defense isn't just blocking. my personal opinion is that the biggest difference between overheads like Tsubaki's, and overheads like Mu, or Nus, or Hazamas, is that there are more options.. All kinds of things that people do can beat tsubaki's overhead.

 

I usually don't have problems with hitting people with tsubaki that are just blocking low or high. Same is true when I play Orie in UNIE (27 frame overhead !)

 

but against tsubaki's overhead, you can:

backdash

upback

mash dp

mash 2a

mash throw

mash 5c

OD thru and punish

block

 

against relius 6a you can

mash dp

block

 

And if you block you're in for more. having more options makes it more likely you'll get out on even a single mixup.

 

And you get to use some higher quality mixups because they can't be disrespected.

 

You wouldn't say Chie has bad mixup in P4U would you? the airdash /low that can't be disrespected is the same as relius.

 

Right now I'm looking through the scope of the most universal option, blocking. 4, 1, 4A+B, and 1A+B. If you have good enough reactions to clear a beginner level DDR stage, blocking Rel outside of the corner shouldn't be super scary.

[Errol]

then I guess the other thing I have to say is that people can't block overheads as well as they like to say they can.

 

So if you are forced to just block ("react"), then people end up having to guess, and they mess up, even against 26 frame overheads. And the guess is just straight 50/50.

 

If you've got other stuff you can do, you can make the odds , on the defensive side, rise higher than 50/50. tsubaki has to guess that you're going to block high, block low, fuzzy block, fuzzy jump, fuzzy mash, etc.

[greatfernman]

By the way SKD, you made me and my friends very happy with that stint as "SKD's Final Form" Azrael. Infinite points for getting Love Phantom off in a real match. My Azrael friend Idolizes you for that.

That wasn't SKD, that was someone else btw.

[Myoro]

You are constantly missing the point of my posts. And my name shouldn't mean anything, the concepts of what I am talking about should speak for themselves

I think I got what you mean. The threat of Ignis restricts the opponent's options to the point where people have to block, which makes him able to get people in more high/low mix-up situations. Without other options the opponent is actually jammed into my 50/50. I agree 500,000,000%. What I'm saying is even if they end up blocking Rel's mix-up, his mix-up still is the super obvious scorpion tail and jump normals vs lows and requires the opponent to make an easy mode judgement error before the egg timer named Ignis runs out, or dips so low that we're at too low risk/reward to continue.

 

That wasn't SKD, that was someone else btw.

 

O_o" Oh really... I need to pay more attention to who's who outside of the Relius players...

[NecroTheReaper]

Myoro, I think the issue here is the varying of people's opinion on what "good" mixup is. Ok, to me, good mixup would probably be godlike mixup in most people's dictionaries.

[mAc Chaos]

Ah... I need to start paying attention to PSNs. By the way SKD, you made me and my friends very happy with that stint as "SKD's Final Form" Azrael. Infinite points for getting Love Phantom off in a real match. My Azrael friend Idolizes you for that.

 

 

Right now I'm looking through the scope of the most universal option, blocking. 4, 1, 4A+B, and 1A+B. If you have good enough reactions to clear a beginner level DDR stage, blocking Rel outside of the corner shouldn't be super scary.

You can't look at blocking things in a vacuum. Even if the move by itself is relatively easy to block /when you know it's coming/, when you're in the corner you're worried about so much other stuff that it slows you down.

[NecroTheReaper]

Like I said, I think the definition for good/strong mixup is being mistranslated. I set my standards based pretty much where Relius is. There are people with better mixups than Relius if we're combining mixup and pressure, only a few, but they're there. Higher tier too. Maybe not as dead lockdown as Relius, but I think they feel harder to block.

Also, me and Myoro are also kinda affected by I think it was Nemesis' trash talk about Relius mixup being easy to block. Might be wrong, idk xD;

[Myoro]

That was just trash talk!? 'o'!?

 

I need to stop being so impressionable. '~'