[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[LegendaryRath]

I want to know why we don't even SEE Nu listed. Does he really think it is in our favor that hard or did he just forget about her?

I always felt like that was one of Azrael's worst matchups when I played it.

I don't mind the MU too much in general, but this is only after having a lot of Nu experience the last few weeks. It might really be as simple as "get in and win" because she doesn't have any good ways out.

[Kinkuli]

Apart from like few entries, that list looks pretty logical. I really would like to know the reason for jin being slighty in favor for azrael and why is rachel even. Also Relius and Litchi seem a bit weird but yeah. Might need to ask him at mixup night. Maybe I'll learn some ancient chinese secrets!

Nu probably isn't there because you can get phalanx stocks so easily in that MU. After you get stocks, it gets really dangerous for Nu to use her ground swords. Even if you just randomly throw out one, you still probably have 1 or 2 more and you can always just get more. And like Rath said, once you get in, she dies pretty much. Though you need to be sure that she can't use calamity sword or w/e that big ass sword move is. But ofc you can't just rush in. You need to be really patient in this matchup, but it pays off pretty fast.

[LegendaryRath]

I'm sure there's a little bit of modesty involved in that list as well. As far as I know ( and I might be wrong), JP players don't like to blame matchups much. In fact, I think they tend to talk and promote their characters strengths, rather than focusing on weaknesses, bad matchups, tiers, etc.

There's probably a chance that MU experience plays a big roll as well. In p4a, I have so many matches against Naoto and Yosuke that I simply don't care about fighting them and might say they are highly in Mitsuru's favor, even though most JP players think those MUs are even or only slightly Mitsuru favor. We're all comfortable in different situations.

[LordSpectreX]

I'm not even sure why Dogura felt the need to make this list. Perhaps it is a logistical error and he's simply says what his personal matchups are. In which case, fair enough. But if this supposed to be some kind of objective statement on Azrael's matchups, then it is pretty irrelevant, regardless of how good the individual player is. Not to mention that this MU chart just seems downright, well, illogical. The idea that someone could objectively say that Tager and Ragna is as hard of a matchup as VALKENHAYN and MU-12 is quite hilarious in it's own right.

I would like to give Dogura that benefit of the doubt and assume that this is just what he personally feels like his Azrael does. Rather than him speaking for the character as a whole, as to be honest, it's quite an embarrassing list if that's the case.

Also the weird ones are largely in the 'Even' section. While the For and Against sections are generally fine. Perhaps he put anything he wasn't too sure of in the Even section, which would also be reasonable.

Edited February 19, 2014 by LordSpectreX

[mAc Chaos]

i have no idea how accurate the list is but based on character design you could have tager and mu being 5s for different reasons. maybe mus tools arent as good vs him and tager has some unique strengths vs azrael, etc

[Verimeloni]

^I agree with Spectre there, because one reason for Dogura being the best Azrael is that he can play the character in such a versatile way. Folks here and there can share tips and teach you how to TK Gustafs but how you will actually benefit from that information is up to you. A vital part of BB and why it's such a great FG is that you can play all of the characters in the cast in different ways. Others have more tools to zone for example but how you use those tools is again up to you only. It really comes down to the question about how well-rounded you are with your main, how well you understand your own and your opponent's playstyle and in which ways can you fool your opponent to gain advantage (=mindgames).

[LordSpectreX]

i have no idea how accurate the list is but based on character design you could have tager and mu being 5s for different reasons. maybe mus tools arent as good vs him and tager has some unique strengths vs azrael, etc

Maybe. Maybe not. I just don't think the list really has any value if there's no explanation for why he apparently does even against better characters like Taokaka and Valkenhayn or not weaker characters like Tager and Ragna. Not saying it can't be true, but without an explanation or some context, this list just isn't really worth anything. That's all.

[Errol]

why do you think matchup charts are just a tier list, where your 4.0 matchups are the S tiers and your 6.0 matchups are the Bs?

[LordSpectreX]

why do you think matchup charts are just a tier list, where your 4.0 matchups are the S tiers and your 6.0 matchups are the Bs?

I don't. If Valkenhayn is considered superior to Azrael (as Dogura said himself) BUT Valkenhayn is even with Azrael, then Azrael's tools must help negate the superiority of Valkenhayn in a 1on1 enviroment. Thus, explanation is needed to explain this discorrelation between overall character strength and the actual 1vs1 matchup. Pretty logical to be honest.

I also don't see why you'd think I'd even think that. If I believed that the MU chart HAD to correlate with the Tier List, then why would I even be talking about this? I would just say Dogura is completely wrong as his own Tier List doesn't matchup with his MU chart.

Edited February 19, 2014 by LordSpectreX

[Errol]

There's no need to explain a discorrelation between 'character strength' and the actual matchup. That's why I thought there was something odd about what you were saying.

You just want an explanation of why your experience with a matchup doesn't match up with his. That you don't have an explanation doesn't mean his matchups are meaningless. Depends how much faith you hold in the best azrael to accurately understand his matchups. But it's always going to be easy to take fault with any matchup chart.

[LordSpectreX]

You just want an explanation of why your experience with a matchup doesn't match up with his. That you don't have an explanation doesn't mean his matchups are meaningless. Depends how much faith you hold in the best azrael to accurately understand his matchups. But it's always going to be easy to take fault with any matchup chart.

I don't really hold 'faith' as a source of valuable analysis. But to each their own.

[Errol]

you think dogura is a dirty liar or ignorant. I gotcha. I respect that.

[zankoku]

Dogura rated Azrael as a fair character. He is obviously a dirty liar.

[Lucalibur]

Azrael is a scumbag character for scumbag players. Nobody that plays this guy deserves any respect because he ain't showing any of it either.

[natearistata]

Explanations do help (when is more information not a good thing?), but the lack of them does not immediately disregard his opinion either.

If I was going to guess, it's largely due to the way Azrael functions as a character. The first hit can decide the entirety of the match a lot of the time. This holds true with Valkenhayn and Taokaka regardless of their tier placings, because they lack a reversal. If Azrael gets the first hit in neutral, it's not an illogical assumption to believe a high tier Azrael like Dogura just won that round. From there, it's simply about deciding how difficult it is to get the first hit in these match-ups. If he feels it's a 50/50 chance to grab a hit, then it stands to reason that he'd believe the match-up is an even 5/5.

Regardless, any chart or data provided by a single person is bound to be subject to opinion and may not be entirely accurate, and there are legitimate arguments to be made one way or the other (also plenty of bad ones to get in the way), and that's why any tier listings or match-up charts etc. are going to be scrutinized extremely carefully and debated amongst the people that care. I disagreed with his tier list, and I can find a couple things to disagree with in this chart as well, but to discount it solely because he doesn't provide an essay and cite sources isn't very conducive either.

[LordSpectreX]

Explanations do help (when is more information not a good thing?), but the lack of them does not immediately disregard his opinion either.

If I was going to guess, it's largely due to the way Azrael functions as a character. The first hit can decide the entirety of the match a lot of the time. This holds true with Valkenhayn and Taokaka regardless of their tier placings, because they lack a reversal. If Azrael gets the first hit in neutral, it's not an illogical assumption to believe a high tier Azrael like Dogura just won that round. From there, it's simply about deciding how difficult it is to get the first hit in these match-ups. If he feels it's a 50/50 chance to grab a hit, then it stands to reason that he'd believe the match-up is an even 5/5.

Regardless, any chart or data provided by a single person is bound to be subject to opinion and may not be entirely accurate, and there are legitimate arguments to be made one way or the other (also plenty of bad ones to get in the way), and that's why any tier listings or match-up charts etc. are going to be scrutinized extremely carefully and debated amongst the people that care. I disagreed with his tier list, and I can find a couple things to disagree with in this chart as well, but to discount it solely because he doesn't provide an essay and cite sources isn't very conducive either.

Absolutely. Looking back at it, I did imply that it was completely worthless when I didn't quite mean that. I just meant that this is a very raw, thrown together list. We don't even know what Dogura is even judging in this list (Azrael's Matchups or HIS Azrael's matchups). For example, I hate fighting Mu-12 more than any other character, but I wouldn't say she's technically 'Azrael's' hardest matchup, even though it's mine. All I'm saying is that we should be skeptical of judging a man's opinions in a certain way when we don't know the context for this list and the explanations behind it. The list isn't right or wrong. It is just kinda empty and difficult to analyse.

I just don't want people going "Valk Vs Azrael is Even" just because of this quick-fire unexplained list just because it happens to be made by Dogura. Prehaps League of Legends and people taking what pro players say at face value just because they said it has made me jaded. In which case, I'm probably not giving the FGC much credit, so my bad if that's the case.

[Errol]

someone questioned him on the rachel matchup and he was like, yup, about even. I'm sure it's not a list of his personal matchups. You could argue that. but I don't think he would say that.

[Cheefoo]

Maybe. Maybe not. I just don't think the list really has any value if there's no explanation for why he apparently does even against better characters like Taokaka and Valkenhayn or not weaker characters like Tager and Ragna. Not saying it can't be true, but without an explanation or some context, this list just isn't really worth anything. That's all.

It's hard to categorize characters as "weak" or "strong". I think I'd agree with, or at least understand where Dogura is coming from with those matchups in particular.

Azrael is a close-ranged character with scary mixup and high damage potential. He can have some troubles gaining an advantage in neutral because of his short ranged attacks. However, a lot of his buttons function as anti-airs (5A, 6B, 2C, 5B) and he can absorb projectiles with growler field and use them as fireballs with his phalanx. Once on the offensive, he has an opportunity to mixup the opponent with quick lows/overheads, crossups and grabs. However he lacks any solid okizeme tools, so he has trouble dealing with reversals. On the defensive, he has a great backdash and a decent reversal in the form of growler field.

Tao and Valk are both high-mobility rushdown characters that tend to stay in the air. This can give Azrael an edge because of his rather large vertical hitboxes. Their short hitboxes (despite their great functional range due to their movement) are great targets for Azrael's AA game, and gives him confidence to use growler without worrying so much about it whiffing. They lack defensive options, requiring meter just to attempt a reversal, and they have rather short ranged pokes for getting out of pressure. Azrael has a number of moves that leave him at a slight frame advantage on block, and they also leave him out of the range of Tao and Valk's quick pokes. Their short range also allows Azrael to backdash through some of their offense.

Ragna, on the other hand, is quite the opposite. His 5B allows him to escape Azrael's pressure a lot more easily, and it can even catch Azrael's backdash if he abuses it. Ragna has a great reversal, and Azrael has no real way around it, and has to guess every time Ragna wakes up. Azrael has problems with Ragna in neutral because of Ragna's great range normals - Azrael's 5C is his only normal that comes close in terms of range, but is far too slow to be chanced against Ragna's 5B and 5C. Ragna can keep Azrael's growler field in check by utilizing the range of his jC - he can whiff-bait Azrael's DP while being in the same position as he would be if he wanted to throw out a jC.

Tager's got 360s all day. Also sledge goes through 2C. Fuck that.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Cheefoo

[Ice Cube]

awesome explanation

Good read there, I do agree, Valk and Tao fly into Azrael's 5B/2C whole day.

About why Jin MU is in Azrael's favor, I can offer my 2 cents by comparing to Ragna. Jin's projectile is totally locked by Growler, their respective j.C are both pretty good against Azrael's AA but Ragna gets much better reward, Jin's other air options get 5B'd whole day, Jin's ground pokes is within Azrael's 2C range where as Ragna outpoke Azrael completely, Jin lacks good anti-air when Azrael's directly above, and of course much worse reversal options that's more easily baited and punished.

The only thing that Jin has going are braindead freeze resets, but Azrael's good defensive options means it's not much of an advantage.

I don't understand how Mu is in Azrael's favor (ok, 2C kinda invalidate her reversal but still, getting past her C & D button is real tough) and how Hakumen is equal (Haku has superior neutral game everywhere and easily disrespect Azrael's cross-ups) though, can someone explain these?

[zeth07]

Tao/Valk - Their short hitboxes (despite their great functional range due to their movement) are great targets for Azrael's AA game, and gives him confidence to use growler without worrying so much about it whiffing.

Tao can punish Azrael for HITTING with Growler and the combo does 4.7k with 25% heat. Some other characters can immediately reapply pressure even when Growler hits. This is at least fixed in the update but as it is now it is not exactly the best thing in the world to use in certain match-ups.

I'll just say I thought some of Dogura's match-ups were weird but he would know better than anyone I guess.

This kind of thing is precisely why I do not want to put any opinion based information like that in the match-up threads, like saying a match is 4-6 or something, as it just provides a crutch for people and there isn't a "correct" answer it seems.

[Cheefoo]

Tao can punish Azrael for HITTING with Growler and the combo does 4.7k with 25% heat. Some other characters can immediately reapply pressure even when Growler hits. This is at least fixed in the update but as it is now it is not exactly the best thing in the world to use in certain match-ups.

I thought that was only on normal hit, counter hit having enough untech to be unpunishable (unless you hit them into the corner or something?)

[Verimeloni]

I thought that was only on normal hit, counter hit having enough untech to be unpunishable (unless you hit them into the corner or something?)

Yes, on normal hit. He didn't say anything about CHs.

At one point I wanted to compile a list of all the characters that could punish Growler even on hit, at least Tao and Ragna, but because of the patch I assume it is/will be irrelevant

Edit: I remember someone wondering if Terumi could punish Growler with Renshouga. As I've written in that MU thread, it's not fast enough.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Verimeloni

[natearistata]

I believe Tao is the one character that can still punish Growler on CH.

[eSportsHero]

Great posts

I would argue though and say I think valk is his worst match-up right now cuz wolf vs azrael is like 8-2. Falling, you cannot beat any of wolfs buttons, Ground v ground, or air v air you are so much slower its pitiful. I win against valks that run into my moves or try to force oki/pressure. I lose against the ones that know how to zone me. The smartest ones hung out around max gustaf range, and wolf can punish wiffed buttons from over half a screen away.

I agree with ragna being an extremely effective counter to a lot of azraels options. 5B > azrael

I always figured tager was one of azrael's only good matchups, 6-4 or better even, but I probably rank Azrael and Tager both lower than most people.

I don't understand how dogura puts Jin at even. If he knows how to zone with j.C and get out from under me it feels like he's another character that will always win the neutral game. I do like that you can react to a lot of his fireballs with phalanx, and typically you only have to hit jin half as much as he has to hit you. But these hits are hard to come by and its really easy for him to bait growler or OS your backdash.

I would rather fight tao than any of the other characters listed (not that i think its easy). Az's buttons work on her and she's weak on wakeup. She has to hard read a backdash to catch it typically which a lot of times you can react to with growler. It's also really rare to get non CH growlers in my experience vs tao, but this is honestly one I'd like more time with.

[ThatHiroGuy]

I've just recently had some big issues with the idea of Azrael being as good as Japanese players say he is, and how people perceive him to be. And I agree with a lot of the posts here, on both sides.

You need to sort of have a certain amount of faith in some of the best players opinions, but that's all they are. Opinions. I wouldn't call them baseless, but when you think about it, their opinions only really have relevance to the people who are of their skill level, and understanding of the character. Not to mention, a player who has a great understanding of the game, or is just well disciplined, can make most any character work with determination.

That being said, I think Azrael is an 'average' character that requires a VERY defensively trained player to bring out his better qualities. The opinion that he has nothing but even matchups, with a few disadvantaged ones... I can't agree with it. It depends on how you play him, but in a general sense he only fares well when people don't know how to fight him. Once they figure out how to OS, and keep away... there's not much that helps him shine above other similar characters. Since I'm sure we already know the popular reasons as to why he's good, I'd rather mention some things that I'm finding issues with. Not that there should be any credence, based on my position in the community, but here's food for thought-

- Normals are good up close, work well as anti-airs, and stuff approaches pretty well. On the downside, they are all pretty slow, and at melee range can be beaten out by quite a bit of other characters normals(if they aren't in blockstrings from your normals). I can't count the times where I get hit by Jin's 5C when I'm hitting 5A. This happens on more characters than just Jin, too. At melee range Azrael should be very dangerous, even outside of blockstrings. Instead, I always feel that I'm disadvantaged if it's not a zoning character I get in on.

- I don't mind his 'lack of oki game', because I think he's got okay options there. Time a sentinel well, and it'll catch rollers, put defensive players in some really terrible blockstun, and counterhit people trying to get saucy. His other options are strong as well. Safe jump people who DP on wakeup, meaty people who don't. At any point of the screen, safejumps eliminate any guess work on opponent wakeup. Block or stuff DP's, hits rollers no matter where they roll, stuffs backdashes, and counterhits almost anything outside of a super. Where this fails is- at a certain point it just makes opponents block. This is good for you, but the next point is why that sucks sometimes.

- You can pretty much disrespect everything Azrael does for mixup/crossup. You need to read extremely well, or condition the opponent (the latter of which is NOT something you can always do). Going for overheads will always leave you open for reversals. 5D, 6D, IAD. The only solid overhead you can throw out is Valiant which... I shouldn't have to explain why that's not the best idea. Outside of overheads, 2D/3D are also easy to counter in a blockstring. Cross-through can be OS'd. Cross through and jump over can be anti-aired (or still OS'd/grabbed). His ONLY largely 'safe' tools to force opponents to miss up with is 5A/2A, 5B, 2C and 3C only at certain distances. Gustav, too, but that is risky too. This works well enough, but you put yourself at a risk to actually perform mixup outside of that. Next point shows why even THAT is pretty crap.

- Since Azrael needs to time his hits in a link-type manner, he comes off very rhythmic. This is pretty bad, since it makes it relatively easy to IB him. If you're relying on simple 5A>5A>2A (or any variation)>5B> so on... blockstrings to get you places, it's entirely possible that you'll get punished by a competent player. This is still something that doesn't show up as a problem more often than not, since a LOT of players are afraid of him, but it's one that I find... not in his favor.

- His movement is great, but it's better to play defensive. Forward movement is easy to punish Azrael for, unless you cancel it into a jump and barrier. This is still a problem against most, since people just double jump, airdash, and just runaway from Az at most points of a match. If you get in, alright. If you play defensively, due to the nature of the game, you only have two options for not eating damage. Growler, or block well enough to force them to mess up or rethink the approach. Better than other characters who don't have a good reversal, but still a problem. He doesn't get in for free, so he really has to play conservatively. That's just not a style I find useful in the Blazblue universe.

I just wish more people would rethink how great he is. Just because he can overpower people with offense and good reads doesn't mean that he's a great character. His tools are good, and give him flexibility to fight the cast, but when people understand him, he can get disrespected in a pretty big way.

Edited February 23, 2014 by ThatHiroGuy