[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[zeth07]

Yeah I got it down now, thanks guys.

 

Another general question. I played a hundred straight games against my local Mu today and I've noticed something I was having a lot of trouble dealing with that doesn't come up that often.

 

He would always barrier EVERYTHING. My pressure felt incredibly weak and insubstantial. He would barrier a 5A and I would actually be too far away to follow up with anything safe other than 2B or max range 5B (where 5BB won't connect). Gustaf would actually repel me to a point where 5B was to far but his 2B would hit. Even without instant blocking it. He would then IAD backwards and j.C and I often felt really stuck. I eventually came to the conclusion that I could not really do anything about this and just follow her safely until she reached the corner, which worked reasonably well, but I was wondering if anyone else had any suggestions for what to do against opponents who try to barrier everything and jump out?  

 

Cross them up if they aren't doing the barrier OS thing. If they aren't it means they are at least being defensive giving you more of an opportunity to actually run a mixup on them. I'd try to throw them more as well or do TRM type stuff, see if they can actually tech the throws. Even simple stuff like 5A>5D/2D or 2A>5D. Because it seems like they are fully expecting you to just do 5A>5BB or 5A>5B>2C and what have you. Do the actual high/low mixup earlier and getting the weakpoint will make it more threatening.

 

Basically if they are truly trying to block everything it should give you more of an opportunity to mix them up, because it means they aren't mashing which is usually the problem with trying crossthrough mixups.

[Kinkuli]

Well you have few options. 

 

1. You can try and do 5A or 5A 5B to IAD jB. If they want to chicken block then you should be able to catch them and cover some ground. You could also try to gatling  5B to 5C but that might lose to IADB jC. 

 

2. 5A to dash something. Loses to mashing. 

 

3. gatling 5B to 3C and try to catch them not blocking low. 

 

4. 5A to 2C or 5A 5B to 2C to try catch them. 

 

5. 5B gatling to 6D/3D

 

I usually just do the IAD jB thing as it is most safe in those situations. Basicly they need to call you out with early AA to beat it which then loses to 5B 3C etc.

 

EDIT: also what zeth said. 5A 5D or 2A 5D has caught people trying to jump out for me soooooo many times. 

[LordSpectreX]

I should of been more clear. It's not really a mixup problem. I was doing 5A/2A>5D or crossup a lot. The problem was that because of the barrier, I couldn't condition them to block for any reasonable period of time, meaning they could often take a good guess and just mash me out of my stuff. Which would beat a lot of stuff. Like 5D, dash, jump cancel, 6D/3D, pretty much anything I do every a barrier'd gustaf. The whole jumping out thing was more of a result where I would try to not get mashed out, making me cautious and they would jump out. 

 

It's kinda a problem I have that comes up in Netplay vs Bad people or after extended sessions against good players. They start to disrespect a lot of my stuff. Ofc, usually a decent answer to that is Gustaf so reset your pressure as long as they don't IB it. But since barrier pushes me out to a disadvantageous position despite being +2/3. It felt like more harm than good in this case. You only really get to use it once to reset pressure and that's assuming you was point blank in the first place/didn't use gustaf to get in in the first place.

 

So I guess the real question is how do I get people to block more so my mixup becomes harder to anticipate and mash out of? (i.e. basically Frame Traps). As suggested, 5A>2C is pretty cool, since there's an unsafe gap on regular block but it's actually a full frame trap on barrier. 5A>5B>3C is also safe vs barrier. Apart from that though, I don't really know how to make people respect my stuff other than trying to force them into a corner. Which might be the actual solution, but...yeah.

 

I did use rising j.AAA a lot, since it would beat 5A mashing and reset pressure. It would lose to a full blown anti air like 2C but that requires commitment so that's fine. I should probably do that more often. 

[Raziul]

Don't forget you can jump cancel 5B and start doing cross ups or stuff like j.B over then double jump back the other way with another j.B.

[Verimeloni]

@Spectre I suggest after resetting with Gustaf try out stuff like 5C > 6C, 5C link 3D or 5B > 3C. 5C should catch any attempts to jump out, FC bounce let's you get a weakpoint. Try throwing out a Sentinel here and there as well.

[Kinkuli]

You can try using 5A gustaf also. No need to always go to 5B/2B to use it. Keeps you closer and also beats out mashing. Staggering(i guess that's the correct term) is also good. 5A step 5A is also an option. Same with 2A. Both are plus so you can take a small step if you want. If they mash you can just cancel to your other stuff for pain. Azrael has problems with barrier BUT also can work around it. For me IAD jB works pretty well as a way to keep pressure going. I also do dashes after far gustaf. It works and if people mash you can probably CH them with 5B or 2B or 2C. 

 

One thing you really should do is to take note what situations give you problems. Like the gustaf thing. Go to training mode and try out your options after. See what loses to what etc.

[Warhound]

Well guys, I'm trying. But, wow, I can't get anything done with this guy. I just dont' know how to play him. I read up on what kind of strategy you have to do but, I just have no idea what to do against pressure. I can't get combos started or going. I just honestly have no idea what to do.

 

Got majorly blown up by a Tsubaki, and it was horrid. I guess it should also be noted that I'm using a stick, and I've yet to have much real fighting experience using it against others.

[LordSpectreX]

Well guys, I'm trying. But, wow, I can't get anything done with this guy. I just dont' know how to play him. I read up on what kind of strategy you have to do but, I just have no idea what to do against pressure. I can't get combos started or going. I just honestly have no idea what to do.

 

Got majorly blown up by a Tsubaki, and it was horrid. I guess it should also be noted that I'm using a stick, and I've yet to have much real fighting experience using it against others.

 

Despite what people might say otherwise. Azrael is not a beginner's character. While he's technically rather straightforward combo wise, he demands a good understanding of the game's mechanics and flow. I've learnt way more about the technical side of the game playing Azrael than I ever did playing years of Arakune and eventually Relius. 

 

Unfortunatly, Azrael is not a character with answers. He's not like most characters where you can follow a reasonable flowchart and mix it up at your own preference. You don't have safe setplay or even solid pressure strings.

 

It's not like say, Rachel, where you can go Knockdown>Oki>Mixup, or even Jin who can go Combo>22C>Safe Jump>Buttons into Mixup. You are going to have to constantly change the way to play depending on your opponent, no matter how good or bad they are.

 

There are things to help you while you get used to his neutral against inexperienced players. Gustaf is incredibly good if people don't Instant Block it. Constantly do things like 5A>Gustaf>5B>Gustaf etc to try and get them to respect you. You can then try to do a mixup once you think you got them scared. You also have the infamous backdash. Using this during the tech animation or when the opponent stops doing tight blockstrings will generally get you out of pressure well. You can even use it in the corner if you think you can get them to whiff a high recovery move with it. 

 

These things won't work forever, but over time you'll learn how to approach more safely and be more creative in your mixup and pressure.

[Verimeloni]

@Warhound: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCQQND2CK9hbgriJ1pS6x3Aa8lifgGzMh

 

This is pretty old already, but it's what I used to spend my free time with while waiting for CP when I was still serving in the army. I used to play Tsubaki CS2-Ex era and the only really hard thing in transition to Azrael was learning not to mash inputs. I guess watching Azrael match videos for about 9 months before actually getting to play him must have had some input.

[Warhound]

I guess that's the first part about him that caught me off guard. You can't mash anything. He can't even mash jab like majority of the cast can. You have to be so precise in everything that you do.

 

Thanks for the support guys.

 

Also can you guys tell me about using Valient/Hornet in an intelligent manner? I know it has super armor, but what is the limit on it? What's using it smartly and what situations is it just dumb to throw out there? Does it kind of work like SF's Focus Attacks?

[LordSpectreX]

I guess that's the first part about him that caught me off guard. You can't mash anything. He can't even mash jab like majority of the cast can. You have to be so precise in everything that you do.

 

Thanks for the support guys.

 

Also can you guys tell me about using Valient/Hornet in an intelligent manner? I know it has super armor, but what is the limit on it? What's using it smartly and what situations is it just dumb to throw out there? Does it kind of work like SF's Focus Attacks?

 

Ugh...It's really dodgy. The startup to the guard point of Valiant/Hornet is extremely long and the guard point doesn't cover the entire duration of the move. You can sometimes use it to beat people mashing, but they can rapid and block, punishing you for huge damage. 

 

I haven't tested the data too much, honestly the move's frame data is cryptic and difficult to analyse. Someone might of already done it, but I forget. 

 

You can sometimes use in on reaction to "charge moves". Meaning you can use Valiant when people commit to a long duration move. An example would be Litchi's Itsuu. Another example is a lot of Kagura's drives. You can pretty much punish him using any of his drive moves by doing Valiant. I would not recommend ever using it during actual blockstrings however. Only when you need to call someone out for doing something they should not be doing. 

 

There's two other uses for it in a non-combo situation, with varying degrees of usefulness. They both require 50 meter so it's when you really need to get that leg up. The important thing about Valiant is that while it's unsafe, it still causes heavy amounts of blockstun. Rapiding it SHOULD get you around +12 to +15, depending on how far away you hit it. 

 

The first method is as a frame trap. An example would be doing 236C~46C on block. Normally you would be left minus as all your options past that are unsafe. You can however do Cobra into Valiant. This will beat people trying to punish your 46C. If they block it, then you rapid it to continue pressure. 

 

The other method is an anti-DP tool. Say you have a situation where people are doing DP in the gap between 5B>5BB because they're seeing you do a move that they presume is 5BB. You can do 5B>Valiant/Horner and hold it to beat the DP. The reward isn't as high as naturally just punishing the DP after a block, though that's dependent (you can follow up a CH 236D if done against Inferno Divider if you hit them high enough).

 

You can also do 236D/214D>Rapid after a corner knockdown to essentially force them to block. Since It's unlikely they'll mash out of Valiant at max range, and it will beat DPs and Distortions. Of course, they can just block, which is why it's only useful for when you have 50 meter. It's not the best way to spend it, but if all you need is just one small combo left and you just need that "in". Then it has it's uses. I also like it against characters with harder to bait DPs. Ones that can't get crossed up. Like Litchi and Kagura.

 

Wherever you use Valiant or Hornet is up to you. Valiant is an overhead, and so may still get people who aren't mashing or doing a DP. Especially if you use it rarely, people might forget about it. Hornet is the better option the more you do this however, since it gives you a nice combo on counterhit. 

[LegendaryRath]

Short answer: Don't use Valiant or Hornet outside of combos. There's only a few (very few) situations where I ever do.

[alexbib]

Hey guys, I' trying to do the 6Bdc > j.A > Aerial = 1945 combo.  Does the dash need to be canceled by a super jump?  If I try it with a regular jump J.C whiffs, so I imagine I need to super jump, but my execution kinda sucks...

 

Edit: Ok, I've got it now.  So in case anyone else is wondering, it does need to be super-jump cancelled.

[felirx]

Doing 6C to catch a jump out can also occasionally work. Works decently against some Rachel players that like to end their blockstrings on lobelia and then try to jump away.

5A>5B>iad j.B>dash trough gustaf/tiger/5A is also quite a fun trick or j.B->dash trough in general.

[LegendaryRath]

Here's a (new?) way to confirm off airborn TCL that easily gets extensions and corner carry. Surprisingly enough, it works on nearly half of the cast. One of those things that makes you wonder "why haven't we been doing this." Really all we have to do is TCL > forward dash 5A > j.A. 

 

its

just

so

simple

Why the heck haven't I been doing this this whole time

 

So an example would be any 3C confirm

stuff > 3C > 22C > 2C > 2B > TCL > 66 5A > j.A > j.B > j.C > dj.D

 

Technically this isn't optimal, in cases where IAD > j.A > j.B > 5B > aerial is possible, but it's nearly impossible to drop for the characters that it works on, gets most of the same damage, and the same corner carry. I'll sacrifice 100-200 damage every time in order to guarantee my corner carry, weakpoint, and proper knockdown.

 

In a few cases, this is actually the best confirm possible. Comboing Noel, for example, doesn't allow:

..TCL > 3D

or

..TCL > IAD j.A

In fact, this is the only way to even get an extension or weakpoint after TCL on Noel, with the exception of doing TCL > dash late-jump j.A, which is incredibly inconsistent, especially on Noel.

 

Similarly, comboing Kokonoe is difficult as well, with an incredibly finicky TCL > j.A confirm and the inability to even do TCL > 3D.

In 1.0, 5A barely wiffs on Koko after airborn TCL > 66. Considering her hurtbox nerf in 1.1, it's very likely that this will be an option (as well as IAD j,A and TCL > 3D confirms)

 

~~~

 

Here's the list of characters that this confirm DOES work on:

Bullet, NOEL, Makoto, Hazama, Relius, Ragna, Terumi, Izayoi, Platinum, Valkenhayn, Bang

 

Of these characters, 2C > 2B > TCL (no delay required) works on all of them, except for Platinum, where you can just use 5B > TCL > 66 5A. There are other characters with a similar feeling when comboing, but plat is the only one of them that is fat enough for this to actually work against.

 

Also, although the 5A will connect on Makoto, j.A will normally wiff. To get around this you will need to super jump. An example would be:

3C > 22C > 2C > 2B > TCL > 66 5A > sj.A > j.A > j.C > dj.D. note that after the first j.A, j.B WILL wiff, hence why I suggest using j.A > j.A > j.C

Off of more heavily scaled starters, low airdash j.A > j.C for example, j.A > j.A > j.C will drop (not enough hitstun between j.A and j.C). To get around this, you can use sj.A > j.A > j.B > j.C > dj.D. The j.B will give the extra hitsun needed for the j.C to connect. Off raw 3C, I don't recommend this though, because it is kind of awkward.

The combo in this case would be:

j.A > j.C > 5B > 3C > 22C > 2C > 2B > TCL > 66 5A > sj.A > j.A > j.B > j.C > dj.D

 

~~~

 

Ok well that's pretty much it for that. I tested all of the characters, so there's no need to bother with that. Just go into training mode and try it out for yourselves. I know I'll be doing this almost every chance I get, to avoid unnecessary drops, while maintaining my corner carry and knockdowns.

 

~~~

 

Oh ya, I also plan to make a video (or a few) detailing ALL of the character specifics in Azrael combos, or at least as damn many as I can think of. I'm glad we have a section for character specific stuff, but I know it can be improved on, and having visual examples is always a great thing. The only thing I might wait for is the 1.1 patch, just in case stuff changes. With projects, finals, and work, I don't have the time to potentially waste.

 

I also want to make a very basic Azrael introduction aimed towards people that don't play the character. The next time someone asks "what do those glyph thingies on my body do?" I want to just direct them to a video... lol. I'm so done going in depth trying to help people haha.

[Kinkuli]

Good news everybody! 

 

That extension works on 1.1 kokonoe! Imma hit the training mode and grind that shit out on console. It's not trivial to do put i think it's staple enough with proper training to be a thing! 

 

Also TCL to 3D works on 1.1 koko! So there's easy mode option too!

[TheArm05]

Fuck yeah. Midscreen enders suck so bad vs Koko right now.  Really glad they fixed that nonsense.

 

I doubt it but does TCL > IAD j.AB > 5B route work on Koko in 1.1?

 

Got some stuff to try in training mode tonight either way.

[Kinkuli]

It probably works but the dash 5A is most lilkely easier and more staple to do. The IAD one is more damage sure buuuut i'll sac some damage any day for a combo i won't drop. Against koko this is mandatory as you can end up in a position where you worked your ass off to get in and then you need to do it again. It's not just koko ofc but koko MU specifically is one where you cannot really play neutral like normal so capitalizing each opportunity you have is paramount i feel. 

[LegendaryRath]

Good news everybody! 

Thanks Professor!

 

Although it's likely that nothing else would have changed, it's possible that the list of characters that this extension works on is larger in 1.1, besides just Kokonoe. It's just a gut feeling for now. I'll look into it extensively once consoles get the patch

[Kinkuli]

I'll try to look into it every time i have chance. A bit hard to test cos it's either arcade mode which has limited time per char or sparring but only one char at a time ;(. I reaaaaaally wish they would add the sparring mode from Xrd since you can swap the character you wanna train against on the fly. Makes trying stuff out sooo much easier.

[Warhound]

So I have a question for you guys, I think the biggest problem I have is that I'm not sure what to punish successful IBs, against my opponent, with. What combos do you guys usually go for mid-screen. Do you go for piddly damage but apply a weakpoint via 5B > 2C > 6D/3D? Or push em to the corner with 5BB > TCL?

 

I know this is largely character dependant, as well as dependant on what move is used on you. But let's say you IB the ever so present Terumi 6C. How do you guys react?

 

For example, Hakumen is mah boi, and so I know that one of the best punishes you can do with him is 3C, to which you 5C > Enma/Kishuu > loop. Or if it's not a counterhit, 2A > 2B > Renka (1) > Enma/Kishuu > loop.

 

Stuff like that, feel free to go in depth.

[LordSpectreX]

For midscreen combos, i prioritize;

Applying UW > Corner Carry > Applying LW. I generally don't like doing midscreen tcl. That being said, midscreen tcl will become a lot stronger in 1.1.

My punish priority is as follows:

3D CH (24F no wps)

6D CH (27F LW)

5C CH (15F)

5B>3C CH (8F)

3C NonCh (15F)

Backthrow (7F low range)

5A\5B>5BB nonch (8F, follow with rapid or oki)

This is just off the top of my head.

I dont remember if it's a CH punish, but since it's -14 on IB, you can't do either 5c ch or 3c raw. So the best punish would be;

5B>3C>22C>5B>TC>Situational (on ch)

[Warhound]

Okay, so you're saying that, if it was a regular punish and not even a CH, you'd rather go for 2A > 5A > 5B > 2C > 6D? For a weakpoint? Or omit the A's if they aren't close enough.

 

3C would be a great punish, but a lot of the time it seems too slow to do that.

[Warhound]

Well good news, guys. I'm doing better, I think I just needed to learn, cool down and come back to try again. I'm winning some matches, mostly by the skin of my balls, but yeah, getting some wins.

 

Still having a hard time forcing myself to apply weakpoints, but even that is steadily improving. Don't know when I'll actually get to do a Valiant during a match on purpose lol

[LegendaryRath]

I can confirm that Some of Azrael's Damage and Proration must have changed from 1.0 to 1.1. It's probably included as some of the universal changes to air normals' prorations.

 

This combo does 4098 damage in 1.0, but only does 3708 damage in 1.1. I believe this to be a change in j.B's p1 value, especially considering that, in the video, j.B > 2B only does 970 damage, compared to 1.0's 1017 damage.

 

I don't really care though, because this slight "nerf" (ha.. hahaha) is totally eclipsed by the fact that j.C > Hornet > 5A > j.A > j.B > j.C is now stable midscreen! This confirm was incredibly finicky with most of the cast in 1.0. Because of the longer time in which an opponent is airborn after Hornet, they ultimately ended up much further away for when you needed to connect with 5A. 5A > j.A would be 100% stable, but the opponent would frequently be too far away for j.A > j.B to connect at the earliest possible time (which was necessary this late into a combo). Don't get me wrong, it was possible in 1.0. It was just really inconsistent between characters and different small changes in timing.

Seriously though, look at how close the opponent is after j.C > 214D! This sort of thing looks much more consistent now, assuming you've got the timing for 6A > IAD j.C > 214D down in the first place.

 

edit: I think there's a reason why NOW we're starting to see Dogura use this confirm, opposed to when he only used 6A > IAD j.C > 5B > aerial in 1.0.