[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[Kriegdrache]

Hey nate, I watched your latest video today, and I think you did something along the lines of RC > Dash > 236D at one point (i think it was against the Amane). Was the 236 TK'd by any chance? I was gonna try it in the lab, but I never got around to it.

[natearistata]

yeah, gotta TK it to get it out fast enough after a dash. It works mid-screen without the dash/TK too, but it's very finicky timing-wise and I've not gotten it down with any sort of consistency. He also just barely hits with the edge of his foot without the dash, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if some characters have too small a hitbox to be hit with it in the first place. An option if TKing is a problem, but yeah, the TK cancel is significantly easier.

[Kriegdrache]

Thanks man, I'll give it a bit of practice tonight then. It'll help me get better with crossup TCL too.

[Verimeloni]

Ran into to a funny glitch one day, I was playing Score Attack cource C with Azrael as the first opponent. I got counter-hit 5BB and followed it with Scud. For some reason, when my Scud connected the opponent-Az jumped behind my Azrael, so that the rest of Scud didn't connect and thus no weakpoints.

[Lucalibur]

Ran into to a funny glitch one day, I was playing Score Attack cource C with Azrael as the first opponent. I got counter-hit 5BB and followed it with Scud. For some reason, when my Scud connected the opponent-Az jumped behind my Azrael, so that the rest of Scud didn't connect and thus no weakpoints.

I pointed out this 'glitch' like, 10 pages ago and nobody noticed. It's not really a glitch, more like an issue with the hitbox. Kind of like Jin's ice arrow whiffing all follow up hits after the first if it's done super close to the corner.

[Verimeloni]

I pointed out this 'glitch' like, 10 pages ago and nobody noticed. It's not really a glitch, more like an issue with the hitbox. Kind of like Jin's ice arrow whiffing all follow up hits after the first if it's done super close to the corner.

= Glitch with the hitbox? There's nothing "special" (like Valiant Chaser -related) movement involved here, just a ground bounce. I'm pretty sure this thing will get fixed in the patch.

[Lucalibur]

See, I THINK the issue is that the attack's hitbox hits the enemy while they're above Azrael, but when them slightly more towards his back than his front. Since Scud forces standing on hit, it causes them to go back to the closest ground there is, which is behind Azrael. Scud moves Azrael forward A LOT during the startup, which is why they end up behind him after being hit even though it may look like they should fall in front of him instead from the earlier startup frames.

Like...let's say Azrael is standing on ground spot 0, and the enemy is on air spot 1. Azrael moves forward during scud and hits the enemy, but he moves toward ground spot 2 while doing so, and without changing direction. That means the enemy is forced down towards ground spot 1, with Azrael's backs turned to that spot. I think that is the best way I can explain it, but I could be wrong as well.

[Verimeloni]

See, I THINK the issue is that the attack's hitbox hits the enemy while they're above Azrael, but when them slightly more towards his back than his front. Since Scud forces standing on hit, it causes them to go back to the closest ground there is, which is behind Azrael. Scud moves Azrael forward A LOT during the startup, which is why they end up behind him after being hit even though it may look like they should fall in front of him instead from the earlier startup frames.

Like...let's say Azrael is standing on ground spot 0, and the enemy is on air spot 1. Azrael moves forward during scud and hits the enemy, but he moves toward ground spot 2 while doing so, and without changing direction. That means the enemy is forced down towards ground spot 1, with Azrael's backs turned to that spot. I think that is the best way I can explain it, but I could be wrong as well.

So you mean Azrael's own hitbox moves to the place already occupied by(or near) the opponent's hitbox, thus making them stand AND move to the nearest free place (which in this case is behind Az). But even if Azrael moves during Scud, so does the opponent (if you're right next to them), why doesn't this happen when the opponent is already standing?

Mod Edit for the image:

Like...

How are these cases different since Scud makes the opponent stand?

(Yeah the pic got shrinked :p)

Edited December 1, 2013 by zeth07

[Lucalibur]

I think it's because the enemy is already in front of Azrael, so they are pushed forward together with him. If you need another example of this happening on air hit, do 6A>Delayed 5B>Scud in the corner. The enemy will end up behind Azrael as well.

There is an old ass video of CT Ragna doing Carnage Scissor on the enemy and they bouncing behind him, even though correctly they should bounce in front of him. It's stuff like that which makes me believe it's a matter of hitboxes, and the enemy just getting pushed to the wrong side of where they're suppose to end up at since at the moment they got hit, they were leaning towards the position behind the enemy rather than in front of them. The game has to decide where they end up since two chars can't be on the exact same place like that, so it just puts the enemy on the closest ground there is, which at such moments just happens to be behind the enemy, even though the attack is designed to work against the enemy in front of you.

It's a bit of a mess, really. I don't know how to properly fix such a thing other than give the move a very specific animation that outright FORCES the enemy to be in a specific position, such as say...most astrals, or Ragna's Devoured by Darkness.

[Verimeloni]

Thanks for enlightening, though not technically a glitch I think it can be classified as one, based on the fact that if the first hit connects the rest should too. I'm guessing they could patch this by making the first hit give the opponent a set location, like they do when you do DDs at corners (characters aren't pushed through the walls etc.) but it's probably not necessary when this mostly happens when you mash B and get a CH by an accident.

[Lucalibur]

Yeah, it could definitely get fixed if such a thing was done, but it's not TOO big of a deal. It only happened once to me in a 'real' match and it was not a real one, just me and my friend messing around. She did Mu's new crossup move I don't know the input and I tossed a full screen Scud DP. Hit her out of it but she ended up behind me because she was directly above me but very likely slightly leaning towards my back more than my front.

[Ice Cube]

Tech punishes from each of Azrael's midscreen knockdowns:

Midscreen ground TCL

• If your starter is not 5A/2A, dash 2A > 5A > j.B j.C j.D works against everything except emergency tech. Eating this once should train your opponent to emergency tech the next time, so you can apply mix-up on wake up. (Or just throw out a 2A in case).
  
• If you started with an A attack, dash 2C > 6D is also guaranteed without emergency tech. Since emergency tech can be delayed for 8 frames though, use this with caution. 2A > Gustaf is a safer option but only leads to air tech. 2A > 6D if you feel like it, will force blocking on air neutral tech and may reset.
  
• 3D/6D are also guaranteed hit, but their long telegraphed start-up often scares your opponent into emergency tech. Safe on whiff however.
  
• If you have a weakpoint applied, consider dash 2C > 3D / 6D for major pain. Possible follow-up: for non-A starter either 5B > aerial, 6A > 6D for better knockdown, or 6A > 5C > BHS so they will always remember to emergency tech; for A starter, 6A > 6D or 6A > BHS. Or you can apply both weakpoints.
  
  
  j.2C
  
  • There are certain situations where you can blue beat pick up combo with 2A > rekkas (always work against non-emergency tech): cross-up j.2C (hitting with the knee of the other leg instead of the kick), CH j.2C that hit the opponent's torso or lower (hitting their head won't work, not enough untech time), hitting a jumping opponent at their torso or lower.
    
  • Otherwise, 5A and 5B works the same way, 2A may not catch forward roll if opponent's too close. Against backward rolls, 2C works most of the time. There's a certain random factor involved with this knockdown, so do be careful.
    
    
    D knockdowns executive flowchart:
    Emergency tech = 0
    if (not backroll) then 2A
    else if (backroll) then
    if (knockdown with close 5D) then 2B
    else if (raw 6D/3D/j.2C) then 2C
    else if (j.D/j.2D) then 3D
    else if (2C > 6D/3D) then 3D
    else if (TCL > 3D or far 5D) then Gustaf/BHS
    
    Common amongst D knockdowns:
    
    • 5B > 2C > 6D (input 4D if side switches) catches forward roll & quick tech. 5B whiff > 5B is meaty against neutral tech. Won't stop late teching most of the time.
      
    • 5A > 5B > aerial or 5A > rekka catches forward roll. 5A whiff > Gustaf forces backward roll > jump back to the ground. Will whiff against quick tech but another 5A would be meaty. Whiff against neutral tech, gives enough time to apply mix-up. Won't stop late teching but you have enough time to try a 2A.
      
    • 2A > 5A > aerial (or 2A > rekka if you can confirm) catches forward roll & quick tech & late tech, leads to 2.8k~3.5k. 2A whiff > Gustaf forces backward roll > jump back to the ground. Whiff against neutral tech, gives enough time to apply mix-up. Exceptions are point blank 5D, where it won't catches back roll, and after aerial j.D/j.2D, where it will blue beat so you have to delay it to tech punish (some time you actually want it to blue beat though). 2A is your best option-select (OS) in most midscreen situation.
      
    • 2B > rekka beats quick tech and delayed tech for major damage (4.5k+), but it's barely safe on whiff.
      
      
      Point black raw 5D:
      
      • 2B > rekka catches backward roll & quick tech & delayed tech for major pain (4.7k). Is barely safe against forward roll & neutral tech. Backdash to safety, backdash > gustaf to catch jumps, or try to read opponent.
        
      • 5A is safest option-select here. A 2B can be worth the risk, however.
        
        
        Far raw 5D:
        
        • Gustaf & BHS will guaranteed hit against backward roll, but really unsafe against other options.
          
        • 2A is safest option-select here.
          
          
          Raw 6D (point blank most of the time):
          
          • 2C > 6D > 6A catches quick tech & backward roll. Negative if whiff'd against neutral tech & forward roll, backdash to safety or hard read opponent.
            
          • 2A is safest, but you may want to risk a 2C since it gives major reward against backward roll.
            
            
            Raw 3D same as raw 6D, except change your combo to 2C > 3D > 6A
            
            TCL > 3D same as far raw 5D.
            
            Short combo > Aerial > j.D/j.2D
            
            • 2A > rekka will catch any non-emergency tech. Rest assured that they will emergency tech the next time.
              

            Long combo > Aerial > j.D/j.2D

            [*]2A > 5A > j.A x n will confirmed blue beat but no knockdown. Delay 2A for normal OS.

            [*]3D catches backward roll and delayed tech. Will catch quick tech as well if you do normal jump aerial, meaty if super jump aerial. Against neutral tech, 3D whiff is positive, but you have to be extra mindful when it comes to pressing buttons.

            [*]2B > rekka will catch forward roll & quick tech & delayed tech here. Barely positive against neutral tech. It beats the same stuffs as 2A but gives much better reward.

            [*]Delayed 22C is meaty on neutral tech & both rolls, and gives +2 on block. Trade with quick tech > mash 2A in your favor, 5A pickup after wards. Loses to neutral tech > reversal & quick tech > reversal.

            [*]3D seems the best option-select here, since most people won't forward roll at this range. Doubly so if you have a lower weakpoint applied. 2B is also good, especially when your opponent thinks he can outsmarts your 3D. A delayed 2A works, as always. 22C is mostly safe to just throw out, since it covers the most common tech options.

            Aerial > j.D (opponent lands far away)

            [*]Delayed 22C is meaty on neutral tech & both rolls, and gives +2 on block. Trade with quick tech > mash 2A in your favor, 5A pickup after wards. Loses to neutral tech > reversal & quick tech > reversal. About your only option here.

            Ground 2C > 6D/3D

            [*]3D catches backward roll and delayed tech. Meaty against quick tech, but loses to quick tech > DP. Against neutral tech, 3D whiff is barely positive, be extra mindful when it comes to pressing buttons.

            [*]Except for point-blank 2C (you don't 2C on point blank, seriously), 2B will catch forward roll & quick tech & delayed tech. Against neutral tech, barely safe.

            [*]Pick your poison between 2A, 2B and 3D.

            Anti-air 2C > 6D/3D

            [*]2A > rekka will catch any non-emergency tech, which hurts like hell.

            After corner knockdowns:

            After D knockdowns:

            [*]Much less variations compared to midscreen knockdowns. Azrael's 5B is as strong as Jin's old 5B in CT, will catch forward roll, backward roll and quick tech (provided your opponent try do those tech at first possible frame) for 4.5k+. 5B whiff > 5B is still meaty against neutral tech.

            Timing-wise, you have to delay slightly after j.D/j.2D/ anti-air 2C>6D / anti-air

            [*]2A is a confirmed hit option against delayed tech, but you might as well do a slightly delayed 5B. Its 7 active frames will do the job.

            Ground TCL:

            [*]If your starter is not A: Do 5A > 5B > Aerial. Whiff'd 5A still gives major advantage. At a specific range, this will even red beat.

            [*]If you started your combo with 5A: 5A > 5B > 5BB > TCL, (blue beat) 5A > j.A j.B j.C jc j.D.

            [*]If you started your combo with 2A: 5A doesn't lead to anything meaningful. 5A > j.A x 3, mix in a purple throw, if you must. Or just delay a 5B, works similar to D knockdowns.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Ice Cube

[zeth07]

Nice work and thanks for taking the time to post all the info Ice Cube. I'm going to add this to the Combo thread tech section and add it to the Strategy Guide thread so it doesn't get lost in here.

[someonewhodied]

How do you do the moonwalk combos? Is there a secret to it?

one easy example I saw was:

6D(CH)>RC>236D>65C>65B>65C>65B>65B>65B>BHS

where other than the first 5C, all of azraels dashes were backdashes and the last 2 hits were backdashes that also hit the opponent to make them fly backwards..

To make it more clear, he was always facing the wrong direction but still hit the opponent in the right direction.

Edited November 24, 2013 by someonewhodied

[Ice Cube]

Nice work and thanks for taking the time to post all the info Ice Cube. I'm going to add this to the Combo thread tech section and add it to the Strategy Guide thread so it doesn't get lost in here.

I cleaned the post up a bit, much more readable (and shorter) now. I couldn't find any situation where Sentinel works well, might need some help on that (or maybe it's just not very good).

I will post a compilation of tech punish combos some time later.

[zeth07]

I cleaned the post up a bit, much more readable (and shorter) now. I couldn't find any situation where Sentinel works well, might need some help on that (or maybe it's just not very good).

I will post a compilation of tech punish combos some time later.

Typically it was used in the corner. It should beat all rolls, no tech, quick tech, and if they emergency tech it could meaty and it is largely plus on block which is more of an incentive to do it.

However I have not tested it thoroughly.

EDIT: So I tested it a little bit and it's definitely a timing/spacing thing in regards to forward roll. There were times that the forward roll could get them out, other times it would catch them but it'd be hard to combo after. When doing j.D knockdown for example I would have to do a 7 jump j.D then do it and they'd roll into it, but I don't know who'd be ballsy enough to roll forward.

It should catch backrolls no matter what though.

Edited November 24, 2013 by zeth07

[LordSpectreX]

"Point black raw 5D:

2B > rekka"

Is this a typo? 2B doesnt seem to work at all vs Forward Rolls, but 5B works perfectly.

[Ice Cube]

2B doesnt seem to work at all vs Forward Rolls.

Point black raw 5D:

[*]2B > rekka catches backward roll & quick tech & delayed tech

I don't see any problem here?

Typically it was used in the corner. It should beat all rolls, no tech, quick tech, and if they emergency tech it could meaty and it is largely plus on block which is more of an incentive to do it.

However I have not tested it thoroughly.

EDIT: So I tested it a little bit and it's definitely a timing/spacing thing in regards to forward roll. There were times that the forward roll could get them out, other times it would catch them but it'd be hard to combo after. When doing j.D knockdown for example I would have to do a 7 jump j.D then do it and they'd roll into it, but I don't know who'd be ballsy enough to roll forward.

It should catch backrolls no matter what though.

Doesn't seem to be a guaranteed hit. My testing setup: training dummy guard first hit only, no emergency tech, backward roll, auto UW. In the corner, I did 2A > 6D, 5B > 2C, 5B > normal jump aerial, immediate 623C after landing, was blocked. Changed to 22C but same result (got it to hit once, but seem very height dependent and unreliable in general). I wouldn't do this in corner, especially when 5B is so strong there.

I found an interesting use for it, however. After midscreen j.D, a slightly delayed 22C would force blocking on neutral tech, forward and backward roll, and beat late tech. Quick tech > mash 2A will lead to trade in your favor, as you can pickup with 5A. Will lose to neutral tech > reversal or quick tech > reversal. It gives +2 on block, so it's a pretty strong option-select, especially against opponents that you can't get a good read on.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Ice Cube

[Verimeloni]

Anybody got to play Unlimited Az yet? After finishing all the Score Attack courses I've been trying to take down Unlimited Mars... Course C is the easiest I think, most of the time I have no problem getting to Tager.

Unlimited Noel AI is sweet, especially when you're both in the opposite corners of the screen.

[HoudiniJr100]

Anybody got to play Unlimited Az yet? After finishing all the Score Attack courses I've been trying to take down Unlimited Mars... Course C is the easiest I think, most of the time I have no problem getting to Tager.

Unlimited Noel AI is sweet, especially when you're both in the opposite corners of the screen.

all we know of unlimited Az is he has the all out attack (javelin raid), and he has musou tensei as an OD distortion.

[zeth07]

Doesn't seem to be a guaranteed hit. My testing setup: training dummy guard first hit only, no emergency tech, backward roll, auto UW. In the corner, I did 2A > 6D, 5B > 2C, 5B > normal jump aerial, immediate 623C after landing, was blocked. Changed to 22C but same result (got it to hit once, but seem very height dependent and unreliable in general). I wouldn't do this in corner, especially when 5B is so strong there.

I found an interesting use for it, however. After midscreen j.D, a slightly delayed 22C would force blocking on neutral tech, forward and backward roll, and beat late tech. Quick tech > mash 2A will lead to trade in your favor, as you can pickup with 5A. Will lose to neutral tech > reversal or quick tech > reversal. It gives +2 on block, so it's a pretty strong option-select, especially against opponents that you can't get a good read on.

We only really saw limited use of it and I didn't really test it much anyway. But if you can force the opponent to block 623C in the corner (while catching potential rolls) it is +12 so that's not exactly a bad thing. I guess it is just a matter of finding the proper use for it or if it is even worth it like you said if 5B does it all anyway.

[Lucalibur]

Anybody got to play Unlimited Az yet? After finishing all the Score Attack courses I've been trying to take down Unlimited Mars... Course C is the easiest I think, most of the time I have no problem getting to Tager.

Unlimited Noel AI is sweet, especially when you're both in the opposite corners of the screen.

I got U Azrael. Didn't waste too much time with him, though. At the risk of posting info not related to competitive play(since U char), I am going to say some stuff I noticed with him. First, all of the links are now gatlings. 5B goes into 2B, which can go into 5C, which can go into 2C...etc. All D moves have the same effect as if they hit with a mark, the all out attack can be looped like shown in the videos, and BHS and Scud work as if they were in OD. Funnily enough, they get buffed EVEN FURTHER in OD, with BHS doing over 4K damage and Scud being very easy to follow up. Didn't trhy Musoi Tensei DD yet though since idk the input.

[zeth07]

I got U Azrael. Didn't waste too much time with him, though. At the risk of posting info not related to competitive play(since U char), I am going to say some stuff I noticed with him. First, all of the links are now gatlings. 5B goes into 2B, which can go into 5C, which can go into 2C...etc. All D moves have the same effect as if they hit with a mark, the all out attack can be looped like shown in the videos, and BHS and Scud work as if they were in OD. Funnily enough, they get buffed EVEN FURTHER in OD, with BHS doing over 4K damage and Scud being very easy to follow up. Didn't trhy Musoi Tensei DD yet though since idk the input.

As long as it is gameplay related you're fine, and how Unlimiteds work are gameplay lol. So you can talk about Unlimited Azrael all you want.

Stuff like "How strong do you think Azrael is with his limiters off?" = Not Fine.

I'll probably add a small section about Unlimited Azrael in the Character Overview thread if enough information is posted about the differences. Just in case people are curious any further. I haven't bothered to get him yet personally.

Edited November 25, 2013 by zeth07

[Lucalibur]

Alright then, I will go a bit wild here and post the info I can find. You guys do what you want with it.

-Backdash can be jump cancelled. Don't know if it keeps the INV frames like Slayer's jump cancelled backdash does.

-Most links are now gatlings. An exception seem to be 2C>6D\3D\3C(Still has the delay required), but everything else is as simple as pressing the button one after the other.

-5BB 'removed'. Is now 214C, and works much like AOA's in Persona 4 Arena, button mashing required to get FC and everything. Yes, it can be looped on air hit despite repeat proration. I don't know why.

-6C is weird now. Has 2 hits. First one floats, second one downs(slowly). I'm having a hard time following it up at all. Groundbounces on FC and can follow up with no problems there.

-All D moves work as if they had their respective marks applied. They all got repeat proration.

-Growler has much shorter recovery. Not punishable at all on hit. Can still be charged.

-Scud and BHS work as if they were in normal OD. Scud's startup is MUCH faster than normal. Can easily go into it from just about anything. It might actually be 1\0F after superflash, but I'm not sure. During OD, BHS does around 4625 damage raw and Scud can easily be followed up since the stagger is massive. Hell, you can follow up the normal version too, it's just easier to follow up the new OD version.

-New super's input is 214214A during OD(had to try random inputs until something happened). To have Azrael avoid an attack when it's active, move forward the moment the attack would hit him, just as if you were IBing an attack, only...press forward instead.

-Has all of the benefits U chars have, such as higher HP and always 1% HP OD duration. Also always has Scud's aura activated for cool points.

[LordSpectreX]

I don't see any problem here?

Huh. I swear I read that multiple times as the other way round. Strange. My bad, sorry.