toanenadiz Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 You don't need to anticipate with Luna 5D. You should always press 5DD everytime you throw it out. If they get hit, you will auto confirm it with the second D and then you can follow-up with a combo on reaction. If they block, only 5D will come out and you can go from there. Also only Dia 5D is jump cancellable on block. Luna 5D is not.
Daramue Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 That probably explains why I don't recall ever jump cancelling out of Luna 5D. I appreciate the feedback. It seems like I need to improve upon my reaction speed; typically when I hit "5DD" in luna and my opponent blocks the first drive, I will spend somewhere around 6 frames doing nothing before I realize that the drive was blocked and then following up with 236 A/B. It's hard to get used to when in both CT and CS there would always be a drive follow-up even on block.
Nedel_3773 Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 To remain at a safe distance, you might also want to 22A - X. That way you probably won't get punished for your reaction time.
Dazardz Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 I've been reading all these posts, and they're actually encouraging me to get back into playing Nu. Tried her online and suddenly I began to win at least some matches again. Maybe I just wasn't too close with the way BBCP works or something before, but it's a little better playing her now. And I stopped spamming 6D recklessly just because the opponent was in the air or air-dashed at me. That was probably why I got hit so much, because a lot of people had ways of dodging 6D. I need to watch more Yoshiki.
Daramue Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Good point Nedel - 22A is valid. 22A makes a lot of things that are typically very unsafe ALMOST safe. Like Dia 236D on block (which you probably shouldn't be using on block anyway), where 22A can take your frame advantage from something like -18 to -5. Spike chaser is also made much more safe on block with 22A, assuming it wasn't charged with C.
Nedel_3773 Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Sadly, you can't 22A a blocked special move, so 236D - 22A won't work. But due to it's push, and the blockstring before that, the opponent should be far enough not to punish it.
toanenadiz Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 You can't 22A cancel special moves on block. Unless there is some strict timing I have been messing up this whole time with. And we should probably figure out how exactly how good 22A cancel on block is with 5D.
Daramue Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Apologies on that, you are correct. You definitely cannot cancel specials into 22A on block. Not sure why I thought it was on block or why I said that? Anyways, you probably shouldn't be using 236D on block anyway unless you've hitconfirmed it first. It has a lot of recovery. 22A is a great followup for dia's 236D in any event, given that otherwise you spend a lot of time recovering from the move; plus, from the 22A, you can 236A in luna mode to move closer to your opponent. I don't think there's any moment where I don't 22A cancel 236D on hit. The same approach can work for spike chaser (Timing can be tricky however, given your opponents relative distance to you and whether or not you want to do 6D or 2D shenanigans). I have yet to give 5D - 22A cancelling any practice in a real match yet so I can't yet comment on it's effectiveness. Given you are fast enough to react immediately on block of your first 5D then I don't think there should be an issue in theory. I'll report back once I've seen it's effectiveness in some real matches.
ElegantShadow Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 So, I was thinking a bit about what's keeping Nu from being top tier, and what her greatest weaknesses are in CP, and well, with a new balance patch (Yes! An actual balance patch at last!) on the horizon, I thought that I'd ask what you guys would like to see changed/improved in regards to Nu. Now, bear in mind that my general idea is that Luna Forma is the weaker of the two Formas (in regards to what Nu's playstyle is meant to accomplish), so I think that most of the buffs would be given to that form. Like, these are the changes that I'd like to see: Luna Forma: Act Parser: Zwei, gains Projectile Invulnerability during the beginning and middle part of the move: Act Parser Zwei would still be gimmicky, but Nu would have a better way of getting in against other Zoners in Luna Forma if she had this, and it could even be used to surprise certain characters when they go for a projectile attack, E,G, Ragna using Death Spike. Sickle Storm gains its sixth hit back: This would give Nu back her Oki from CS:2/EX, which I feel is lacking now in CP. Sickle Storm seems lack luster when compared to Gravity Seed as an Oki option in the corner in most cases, so this buff would remedy that a bit, methinks. Luna Forma is able to use the ~C version of Crescent Saber: Luna Forma is meant to be the more aggressive of the two forms, no? So why not give her back the mix-up game she had in CS2/EX that, when coupled with Sickle Storm, made her a terror in the corner. This would also help her neutral game a bit, although, it would still be weaker than Dia Forma's. Luna Forma is able to use the ~C version of Sickle Storm: Since Nu doesn't have access to Drive follow ups in Luna Forma, I think that it would be a good idea to give her something to keep the opponent on their toes at a distance (that small spot where 5D can't reach.). Now, to keep this from being too good, the start up for the actual attack should be considerably longer than its normal counterpart. Supra Rage has DP properties in Luna Forma. Nu's greatest weakness (as far as I can see) is her lack of defensive options, so a DP would help that a bit. However, nothing on the level of Ragna or Makoto's DPs, but more akin to Rachel's Cat Chair, I,E, situational, but useful none the less. So, what do you guys think? Are these fair Buffs? Would this make her Kokonoe levels of cheap, or help Nu keep up with the competition a bit more?
toanenadiz Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 Nu is fine the way she is, though making the D swords in Dia mode be N starters would be nice. I actually think Luna is the better of the two forms to be honest. As for your suggestions Act Parser: Zwei, gains Projectile Invulnerability during the beginning and middle part of the move: Act Parser Zwei would still be gimmicky, but Nu would have a better way of getting in against other Zoners in Luna Forma if she had this, and it could even be used to surprise certain characters when they go for a projectile attack, E,G, Ragna using Death Spike. Luna's D moves will cut through any zoners projectiles so I don't think it would help much. If Ragna uses Dead Spike, you can just 5D it and your sword will go straight through and usually punish it. There aren't that many zoners that wouldn't be able to just hit us out of the recovery anyway. Other potential zoners like Rachel, Hazama and Mu all would be able to punish it without much trouble. Sickle Storm gains its sixth hit back: This would give Nu back her Oki from CS:2/EX, which I feel is lacking now in CP. Sickle Storm seems lack luster when compared to Gravity Seed as an Oki option in the corner in most cases, so this buff would remedy that a bit, methinks. I have no trouble using sickle storm now (and I prefer it over gravity seed) in the corner since I spend a lot of my time close to an opponent in Luna mode. It would be nice to have it be even more plus on block though. Luna Forma is able to use the ~C version of Crescent Saber: Luna Forma is meant to be the more aggressive of the two forms, no? So why not give her back the mix-up game she had in CS2/EX that, when coupled with Sickle Storm, made her a terror in the corner. This would also help her neutral game a bit, although, it would still be weaker than Dia Forma's. This would be cool. Crescent cancel isn't that great of a mix-up tool but safer j2Ds would be nice with Luna neutral. But it would mess up the whole 'Only Dia form has access to C versions' thing ArcSys decided. Luna Forma is able to use the ~C version of Sickle Storm: Since Nu doesn't have access to Drive follow ups in Luna Forma, I think that it would be a good idea to give her something to keep the opponent on their toes at a distance (that small spot where 5D can't reach.). Now, to keep this from being too good, the start up for the actual attack should be considerably longer than its normal counterpart. I never found full screen sickle storm useful at all. Also, rather than have it be a ~C version, just make the normal version track an opponent wherever they are on the screen, rather than stopping midscreen. Supra Rage has DP properties in Luna Forma. Nu's greatest weakness (as far as I can see) is her lack of defensive options, so a DP would help that a bit. However, nothing on the level of Ragna or Makoto's DPs, but more akin to Rachel's Cat Chair, I,E, situational, but useful none the less. Nu is too annoying a character to give a DP back to.
someonewhodied Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 Nu needs a DP. Lets face it. Other than a distortion in luna form, we have no invul. We even lost the grab invul on gravity seed which was what made the tager matchup so easy. I say give us a DP. Give us CS1 gravity seed back. also mu has a dp, hazama has flashkick and hotenjin, and rachel has cat chair at least. Kokonoe has superball and teleport, and they can spend almost just as much time zoning as we can. "who would give such a momentum and distance based character a DP?" >Mu
toanenadiz Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 Those characters aren't really zoners. Nu is the only real zoner of the game (though Amane does seem like he could be one). Mu and Rachel just zone until they get enough stuff on the screen so they can safely approach and run their pressure game. Hazama is Hazama. You don't really see him win matches through zoning. He just usually zones until he can spider man his way in and pressure. All of their zoning is weaker than Nu's. They will all eventually approach the opponent. We don't have to. Also, Hazama's flash kick and Rachel's cat chair are not really DPs. They are not frame 1 invul. Plus, we already have this. What more do we need?
D.R.F. Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 ... I dont even Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
someonewhodied Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 i want one move with at least grab invul. Thats ALL i want.
ElegantShadow Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 Nu is fine the way she is, though making the D swords in Dia mode be N starters would be nice. I actually think Luna is the better of the two forms to be honest. As for your suggestions The reason that I think Luna Forma is weaker is because Dia Forma just does its job so well. With all the new options Nu has access to in Dia Forma: Jump Cancelable 5D, Act Parser Forward, Backwards, Air Versions, low hitting Sickle Storm, and Gravity Seed, she easily shuts down opponents in that form, and can stay relatively safe, so long as she doesn't make too many mistakes in her pressure. I've seen battles where the opponent couldn't even touch Nu in Dia Forma due to all those options, and she was able to slowly wilt their HP down to 0 without much trouble. In short, Dia Forma just seems all around better than Luna Forma, and considerably safer to use. Luna Forma on the other hand, while strong in its own right, can't really do much of the above due to the restrictions it was given: No ~C version of Crescent Saber, Spike Chaser, and Sickle Storm, no Drive follow ups unless the attack hits, and generally less safe than Dia Forma. The damage boost that she gains is nice, but it seems to me that, while Dia Forma can pin the opponent down and keep them blocking with her Drive, Luna Forma has to wait for that one stray hit to connect for her to be able to really start her game. I mean, I realize that she can still zone, but besides preference, there doesn't seem to be much reason to use Luna Forma over Dia unless you're doing a combo. The suggestions I gave were ideas that could strengthen her neutral game, make it easier for her to keep up pressure, and give her something that Dia severely lacks, a good defensive option. But I must ask, what makes Luna stronger than Dia in your opinion? I really cannot think of anything that Luna has over Dia, when it comes to what Nu is supposed to do. Maybe I'm over looking something? Luna's D moves will cut through any zoners projectiles so I don't think it would help much. If Ragna uses Dead Spike, you can just 5D it and your sword will go straight through and usually punish it. There aren't that many zoners that wouldn't be able to just hit us out of the recovery anyway. Other potential zoners like Rachel, Hazama and Mu all would be able to punish it without much trouble. I'll admit, I was under the impression that even in Luna Forma, her Drive would still only clash with Death Spike, so my bad on that part. However, again, I was imagining it to be more of a gimmicky surprise move, rather than an end all, be all of trolling other zoners. But yeah, I see what you're saying, Rachel could potential counter with Cat Chair, Hazama could retract his Chain and easily get a counter hit, and Mu could just DP us. It's just a property I've always wanted to see added to Act Parser Zwei. I have no trouble using sickle storm now (and I prefer it over gravity seed) in the corner since I spend a lot of my time close to an opponent in Luna mode. It would be nice to have it be even more plus on block though. The Sixth it being added back would, IMO, make her corner oki and neutral stronger in that the opponent would be forced to block longer, thus opening up a few more opportunities for Nu to pressure the opponent in Luna Forma. This would be cool. Crescent cancel isn't that great of a mix-up tool but safer j2Ds would be nice with Luna neutral. But it would mess up the whole 'Only Dia form has access to C versions' thing ArcSys decided. ArcSys has made horrible mistakes before. :P Seriously, though, I always thought that the point of taking away Nu's ~C moves was so that Luna and Dia Forma could be better defined, I doubt that it's some unspoken rule, though. I think that the chances of Luna having access to this (likely with some form specific tweak made to it) is a strong possibility. I never found full screen sickle storm useful at all. Also, rather than have it be a ~C version, just make the normal version track an opponent wherever they are on the screen, rather than stopping midscreen. Hmm... I didn't even consider this. Though, the problem with this is that, that's kind of... unfair for the opponent, as strange as that sounds. What I mean is that if it were to track the opponent that far, and still possessed the same properties, that would make Sickle Storm ridiculously good, too good. What I was trying to get across is that the ~C version would possess more start up, but could reach the opponent in places that the normal one can't. Those characters aren't really zoners. Nu is the only real zoner of the game (though Amane does seem like he could be one). Mu and Rachel just zone until they get enough stuff on the screen so they can safely approach and run their pressure game. Hazama is Hazama. You don't really see him win matches through zoning. He just usually zones until he can spider man his way in and pressure. All of their zoning is weaker than Nu's. They will all eventually approach the opponent. We don't have to. I agree with Hazama and Rachel, but Mu is versatile enough that she can play zoner effectively. I've seen matches where she just spammed strategically placed Steins left and right and completely shut the opponent down, while pushing the opponent back with her Normals. We have stronger zoning tools, yes, but Mu definitely has enough characteristics to be considered a zoner, or at least incredibly versatile. Nu is too annoying a character to give a DP back to. Also, Hazama's flash kick and Rachel's cat chair are not really DPs. They are not frame 1 invul. Plus, we already have this. What more do we need? O_O!... That's from CT... can Nu still do that in CP? Wait, could Lambda do that?! That aside, I do think that something should be done about Nu in the defensive department. I'd be happy with anything really.
Daramue Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 While I really like the idea of the buffs suggested, I have to say that my favorite and most requested two would be: 1) Please, please, give luna form crescent cancel. I can't help but feel close range mixup is hurt so much by the lack of this. You can't really do anything too fancy with crescent unless you're willing to expend 50 heat to make it safe. 2) A true DP. It doesn't even have to be that great. Just good enough so that I don't feel like I'd have more success at jumping across an open subway window to disneyworld than poking out of pressure against certain characters. It doesn't help that our only reversal option (albeit a distortion) was made exclusive to one mode. And the aforementioned loss of gravity grab invulnerability. It kinda annoys me that mu gets an omnidirectional DP (I actually play Mu and I can't help but wish I had something half as good as origins). They're completely different characters but honestly I'll even take a gimped DP. Anything that helps even marginally defensively.
toanenadiz Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 i want one move with at least grab invul. Thats ALL i want. TK crescent. The only thing it doesn't beat that gravity well beat was Bang's astral. Granted the damage from it isn't as great as a FC gravity was though. The reason that I think Luna Forma is weaker is because Dia Forma just does its job so well. With all the new options Nu has access to in Dia Forma: Jump Cancelable 5D, Act Parser Forward, Backwards, Air Versions, low hitting Sickle Storm, and Gravity Seed, she easily shuts down opponents in that form, and can stay relatively safe, so long as she doesn't make too many mistakes in her pressure. I've seen battles where the opponent couldn't even touch Nu in Dia Forma due to all those options, and she was able to slowly wilt their HP down to 0 without much trouble. In short, Dia Forma just seems all around better than Luna Forma, and considerably safer to use. Luna Forma on the other hand, while strong in its own right, can't really do much of the above due to the restrictions it was given: No ~C version of Crescent Saber, Spike Chaser, and Sickle Storm, no Drive follow ups unless the attack hits, and generally less safe than Dia Forma. The damage boost that she gains is nice, but it seems to me that, while Dia Forma can pin the opponent down and keep them blocking with her Drive, Luna Forma has to wait for that one stray hit to connect for her to be able to really start her game. I mean, I realize that she can still zone, but besides preference, there doesn't seem to be much reason to use Luna Forma over Dia unless you're doing a combo. The suggestions I gave were ideas that could strengthen her neutral game, make it easier for her to keep up pressure, and give her something that Dia severely lacks, a good defensive option. But I must ask, what makes Luna stronger than Dia in your opinion? I really cannot think of anything that Luna has over Dia, when it comes to what Nu is supposed to do. Maybe I'm over looking something? Luna D swords are level 2. That is why you would use it in neutral over Dia. Litchi, Hazama, Rachel and some other match-ups benefit from that greatly. People just generally use whatever is easiest and most natural to them and Dia Nu's neutral is much more similar to Nu/Lambda's neutral than Luna Nu. I think you are being way to limiting when trying to focus on what Nu is 'supposed' to do. One of the things that made Extend Lambda so scary was her oki game. Luna Nu is way better than Dia Nu at converting random hits into oki. I think Luna Nu is still a good character at neutral and is better overall as compared to Dia Nu, who is better in neutral, but fails in other areas. Hmm... I didn't even consider this. Though, the problem with this is that, that's kind of... unfair for the opponent, as strange as that sounds. What I mean is that if it were to track the opponent that far, and still possessed the same properties, that would make Sickle Storm ridiculously good, too good. What I was trying to get across is that the ~C version would possess more start up, but could reach the opponent in places that the normal one can't. It is still a 35+ move. I think they should be able to handle it. If push comes to shove, they can just make it take the 8 extra frames the ~C version did in previous games if the opponent is further away. O_O!... That's from CT... can Nu still do that in CP? Wait, could Lambda do that?! That aside, I do think that something should be done about Nu in the defensive department. I'd be happy with anything really. Lambda could do it in all version of CS. I haven't really been using 214D enough in CP so I haven't seen it yet but I doubt they would bother to fix it after it was in 4 previous games.
Dazardz Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 PLEASE. It sounds a little dumb, but give Nu a DP in Dia. She has a meterless super with invul that is ONLY accessible in Luna, so if you get put in a corner while your in Dia then uh... yolo 4B. It doesn't matter if it's Hazma's 'meterless DP' that can't really be called a DP because of it requiring some previous move that... whatever you know what I mean. Because c'mon, SHE IS SO SYSTEM MECHANIC RELIABLE! Amane survives better than her! Because while his reversal super can not always be used with 50 meter, because his drill can sometimes be exhausted. If Nu is in Dia, she is NEVER turning back without getting hit. So no Luna for reversal. Overdrive. Counter Assault. Roll. Burst. Yada yada.
AchedSphinx Posted February 4, 2014 Posted February 4, 2014 Well, I'm going to be boring say my suggestions on how Nu could be S-tier. I highly doubt they'd to this, but it's all in good fun. Reduce the recovery on all of Nu's drives and specials by 10 frames. This doesn't make her CT levels of broken, but I can still see it making her somewhat broken because she will be too good at zoning then (CT Nu 5D start-up was its recovery after all). To compensate, maybe reduce the blockstun on her drives. Some other quality of life things 5C > 3C or 5C > 6C or 5C > 4B on whiff. Jump cancel 4D on hit or block. 2C head invul begins closer to the start up, around frame 5 or 6 I guess. Oh and change her Astral vs Ragna to a hug impalement a la CT ending. Oh and increase the range of her Astral. 5B > Astral would be legit. (5B has 13 frames of blockstun, her Astral has 13 frames start-up but it's too short to set up the unblockable.)
Errol Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 would you trade your backdash for having calamity sword in both forms?
Daramue Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 would you trade your backdash for having calamity sword in both forms? Normal backdash? Possibly. (Although it would make dealing with tager after gadget finger awful) Air backdash? Hell no.
toanenadiz Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 would you trade your backdash for having calamity sword in both forms? I wouldn't trade her backdash even if she got Mu's DP in exchange.
Errol Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 Just saying complaining about amane having better defense is like saying you want calamity sword in both forms in exchange for getting a suck backdash.
Recommended Posts