BloodWolF Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 I think she's fine the way she is. A lot of these suggestions seem like a bit much. I don't think Luna is lacking in any way. Like Toan, I find myself using sickle oki more than gravity a lot of the time. Limiting yourself to one form and playstyle just kind of ruins all of these new options and variety we've been given this iteration. We have the ability to switch and change our style and moveset so fluidly, forcing the opponent to change accordingly and be on guard. We rely on system mechanics to escape corner pressure. If you would have asked me in November, I would have wanted a DP, but now I feel like we have the mobility and tools to do without. It can be frustrating as hell at times, but it can also make the matches so damn exciting. The only things in those lists that I can find that I think would be nice would probably be the ~C crescent cancel in Luna. Perhaps making 4b airborne, but that may be a bit much to ask for. I think the idea that she's floating in the air, but can be grabbed seemingly by her "ankles" bothers me. ..and Errol, the answer is most definitely no.
Daramue Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) I don't disagree, Bloodwolf. Nu/lambda have never have good defense and in general while our defensive capabilities are at an all time low, at least we have phase shift to compensate; a trade I am more than willing to make. In regards to the whole issue about amane's defense being worse and all that from the previous page, perhaps I misread or misunderstood but I don't think anyone is implying that there aren't ways to "make do" in regards to defense. There certainly are and we know this because we're still playing her after the game has been out roughly 4 months; it's knowing when to 2A/counterassault/burst. That said, I don't think it's so crazy to suggest some improvements, such as c~ cancelling crescent or a minor/gimped dp as a form of defense. While I think the extra sickle hit would be lovely and I would love Luna's D's to have a followup D and gatling as Dia's do, I don't think those things are necessary (although I wouldn't be upset at their addition). I personally don't find a lot of use for the standard backdash outside tager/bullet/makoto/valk situations; I'd almost always rather jump backdash and possibly followup with j.2D (as long as it isn't getting stale or predictable). Edited February 5, 2014 by Daramue
someonewhodied Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 Change Nu's astral command back to 222D. Iunno, i use it more as it is now.
TD Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 what if she could wakeup gravity like rachel wind tech or bridget with his yoyo. that would be cool. a non offensive way to keep someone where they are. after enough barrier or a hole allowing her to jump out, the foe will be stuck on or walled from further advantace by the gravity, allowing her a chance to escape. and it would be a normal gravity so if she fails she cant do it again immediately, unless she was stuck blocking and couldnt escape, which would balance itself out l guess. she would like, set it at the peak of her neutral tech.
ElegantShadow Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 Luna D swords are level 2. That is why you would use it in neutral over Dia. Litchi, Hazama, Rachel and some other match-ups benefit from that greatly. People just generally use whatever is easiest and most natural to them and Dia Nu's neutral is much more similar to Nu/Lambda's neutral than Luna Nu. I think you are being way to limiting when trying to focus on what Nu is 'supposed' to do. One of the things that made Extend Lambda so scary was her oki game. Luna Nu is way better than Dia Nu at converting random hits into oki. I think Luna Nu is still a good character at neutral and is better overall as compared to Dia Nu, who is better in neutral, but fails in other areas. Agreed. I had over looked Nu's increased projectile level in Luna Forma, in those match ups you gave, I do agree that, for the most part, Luna would be better to use (though, Rachel, IMO, is debatable, since we can handle her pretty well in either form). However, you also have to look at characters like Tager and Hakumen, who Dia is vastly better against than Lune Forma otherwise is; Act Parser and Gravity alone make these match ups a thousand times easier than they were in Extended, because we hardly have to even touch those two at close range most of the time. I must also say that Luna Forma does not possess the same scary Okizeme that Lambda did in CS. I feel that Sickle Storm just doesn't stay out long enough for Nu to reap the full benefits of the attack, especially without Crescent Saber ~C. But I will agree that Luna can at least hold her own in more situations than Dia can. As you said, Dia is better at neutral, but has a harder time in most other scenarios. It is still a 35+ move. I think they should be able to handle it. If push comes to shove, they can just make it take the 8 extra frames the ~C version did in previous games if the opponent is further away. Okay, that just blows my idea completely out the water. Lambda could do it in all version of CS. I haven't really been using 214D enough in CP so I haven't seen it yet but I doubt they would bother to fix it after it was in 4 previous games. Someone test this out! Though situational at best, this could at least help Nu out a bit if the opponent gets too careless. PLEASE. It sounds a little dumb, but give Nu a DP in Dia. She has a meterless super with invul that is ONLY accessible in Luna, so if you get put in a corner while your in Dia then uh... yolo 4B. It doesn't matter if it's Hazma's 'meterless DP' that can't really be called a DP because of it requiring some previous move that... whatever you know what I mean. Because c'mon, SHE IS SO SYSTEM MECHANIC RELIABLE! Amane survives better than her! Because while his reversal super can not always be used with 50 meter, because his drill can sometimes be exhausted. If Nu is in Dia, she is NEVER turning back without getting hit. So no Luna for reversal. Overdrive. Counter Assault. Roll. Burst. Yada yada. I 100% Agree with this. I'd take a pseudo-DP over what we have currently (nearly nothing that could be consider consistent). However, I would rather Luna have it instead of Dia, but I've already gone over why that is, so I won't repeat it here. Oh and change her Astral vs Ragna to a hug impalement a la CT ending. Oh and increase the range of her Astral. 5B > Astral would be legit. (5B has 13 frames of blockstun, her Astral has 13 frames start-up but it's too short to set up the unblockable.) Astral Start-up and range? I say just give her an all together new Astral. They improved Mu's in Extended by making it an actual attack instead of a Grab, but left Nu's alone completely. You'd think that the character that's known to manifest blades and impale her targets would do the very same with her Astral, but nope, she strolls on up to the opponent and Grabs them like some sad imitation of Tager. >_> what if she could wakeup gravity like rachel wind tech or bridget with his yoyo. that would be cool. a non offensive way to keep someone where they are. after enough barrier or a hole allowing her to jump out, the foe will be stuck on or walled from further advantace by the gravity, allowing her a chance to escape. and it would be a normal gravity so if she fails she cant do it again immediately, unless she was stuck blocking and couldnt escape, which would balance itself out l guess. she would like, set it at the peak of her neutral tech. Well, if we're brainstorming ideas here, I'd rather instead of this, we just got a command Act Parser Backwards with invulnerability frames. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be something.
Nedel_3773 Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 What if Dia 2C had somewhat late Guard point that wouldn't extend up to active frames? Something like 3-10 GP, no more head invul. And what if we added the possibility to cancel guard point into (invincible) Parser? Less scary than a DP, you get crouch combo'd if you mess up, you can get grabbed out of GP if you don't Parser fast enough. Seems kind of balanced?
BloodWolF Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) I agree with the 720..besides the input. I fail at those. Astraling a Tager is always a nice feeling though. I've done it in a tournament with the precursor of "Will you stop running like a bitch and come over here?"..."Ok." > Act Parser Zwei > Astral. Edit: I obviously say this in jest. She doesn't need a command grab, but having one in theory is entertaining. Perhaps stunning them and scanning them or impaling herself and them in a psuedo-yoshimitsu style (not unlike the astral idea mentioned previously) Edited February 5, 2014 by BloodWolF
TD Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 instead of one big grab, it would be her impaling the foe 720 times. a messy way to lose some health. @act parser invul doesn't backdash already have a decent amount of full invul? it would be llike having the same move twice. maybe if there was more invul or something or was whiff cancelable or something. gp 2c seems ok, but it would have to have its damage toned down. last time a move had a 3f gp, it was doing 5k on average.
Errol Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 how about giving 2b a guard point from frames 3 to 15. then it couldn't be used as an anti-air.
Nedel_3773 Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 As it stands, you can't get much more than 3k off a CH 2C without the use of gravity or being close to the corner. Perhaps they could tone down the P1 to 80 or not make the opponent float on CH? I dunno, theories.
NecroTheReaper Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 Why not 22A GP? Move doesn't do much good point blank outside of combos, plus could either help you or screw you afterwards if you cant handle the matchup as well in that form.
someonewhodied Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 As it stands, you can't get much more than 3k off a CH 2C without the use of gravity or being close to the corner. Perhaps they could tone down the P1 to 80 or not make the opponent float on CH? I dunno, theories. [Dia]CH2C>22A>5B>6A>766 j.B>j.C>Delay 6A>4B>2DD>214D>2DD>j.DD>j.2DD>dj.DD>j.2DD>j.214D [Luna]CH 2C>5C>4B>2DD>214D~22A>236D~C~22A>6A>2C>9j.C>j.2C>2DD>7j.DD>j.2DD>dj.DD>j.2DD>j.214D I've done those combos a lot but always swapped the air ender with just 6C>[Dia]Gravity so I dunno if they can tech after the air drives. The damage should be good though.
toanenadiz Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 That said, I don't think it's so crazy to suggest some improvements, such as c~ cancelling crescent or a minor/gimped dp as a form of defense. While I think the extra sickle hit would be lovely and I would love Luna's D's to have a followup D and gatling as Dia's do, I don't think those things are necessary (although I wouldn't be upset at their addition). I personally don't find a lot of use for the standard backdash outside tager/bullet/makoto/valk situations; I'd almost always rather jump backdash and possibly followup with j.2D (as long as it isn't getting stale or predictable). I do find it crazy to ask for a DP though, even a nerfed one. And I find using backdash to invul through normals amazing. I had over looked Nu's increased projectile level in Luna Forma, in those match ups you gave, I do agree that, for the most part, Luna would be better to use (though, Rachel, IMO, is debatable, since we can handle her pretty well in either form). However, you also have to look at characters like Tager and Hakumen, who Dia is vastly better against than Lune Forma otherwise is; Act Parser and Gravity alone make these match ups a thousand times easier than they were in Extended, because we hardly have to even touch those two at close range most of the time. I've had an easier time using Luna to beat Hakumen than Dia.
Daramue Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 I do find it crazy to ask for a DP though, even a nerfed one. And I find using backdash to invul through normals amazing. I must ask: Why is it so crazy to hope for something that would substantially improve a character's worst trait? Nu's defense is awful. Is it because you think it would make her too good/change the way she is played? No DP is a "get out of pressure" free button against a wise opponent anyway. In regards to the backdash; I'm probably horribly under-utilizing it. It's so ingrained in my play to jump backdash (as mentioned previously, unless I just got gadget-fingered and I know he's going to try to jab me).
Errol Posted February 5, 2014 Posted February 5, 2014 Because while it would help with her bad matchups, it'd push her good matchups into 7-3 or 8-2 'Fuck this game I'm quitting BB' territory.
Daramue Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 So essentially she would be "too good" or overwhelming in all matchups, in particular the ones she was already strong in. Fair enough. Was just curious as to the reasoning.
AchedSphinx Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Well, Nu basically lives on a fine line of either broken as shit or balanced. Giving her a DP would be good, but even the S-tier characters in this game don't have DPs yet they're still S-tier. The difference would be that Nu can force you to go through the gauntlet repeatedly and if the player is baiting her DP, she can super jump forward to get out. I guess giving her an extra defensive option might sway her into broken as shit territory. Right now, the reason Nu isn't S-tier is because all her bad match-ups are S-tier excluding Bang and Carl I guess. If Nu made those match-ups 5-5, then her even match-ups would go up much higher in her favor, and people really don't like zoners. They would take Valk and Kokonoe any day of the week. I don't actually expect ASW to buff Nu in anyway. She will more than likely get slight nerfs, or characters will get more tools to deal with her zoning.
Errol Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 I think she'll get buffed. but I don't think she'll get a DP. When she had one in CS1, she was missing a lot of the stuff she has now. If the always-S roster which is particularly bad for her gets nerfed that would help a lot.
AchedSphinx Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 If the always-S roster which is particularly bad for her gets nerfed that would help a lot. Will they ever become not S? Because your sig has so much wisdom.
someonewhodied Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 I take back what i said about dps the buff i want most is Luna sickle Forces standing on hit Can not be teched on the 2nd thru 4th hits regardless of combo timer or SMP OH GOD THAT WOULD BE AMAZING PLZ I'd be quick to use it too since I played CS2 carl a LOT where Ada's 3D served the same function.
kenja0 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Some ideas. Obviously not to utilize everything (some things actually may sound OP), but change ups to the character. Dia should get no gap Crescents. Luna should get sixth hit of Sickle, Far Sickles, Grab Invincible Gravity, Overhead/Guard Crush Gravity, Crescent Cancels, and Spike Chaser Cancels. Defense should get Counter Assault as 6A animation OR 6B animation that hits crouching hitboxes OR Act Parser Forward. They could even separate them based on Modes (such as Act Parser in Dia / 6A in Luna). Nu in general should get Phase Shift cancels on Block, faster j.2C that have cross-up hitboxes, better j.B hitbox on crouchers, and most of all 4B should be LOW ATTRIBUTE INVINCIBLE! (*snickers*). Interesting mechanic changes: Holding A after Specials and D moves changes modes (ex: 236D~C~A; 4B > 2DD~A). Mid-air Mode Changes. Holding A at start of match to start in Luna.
Dazardz Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) and most of all 4B should be LOW ATTRIBUTE INVINCIBLE! (*snickers*). Yes Arcsys! Please! I have no idea why I still do it but sometimes I just mash on 4B. What I want, which may have already been said before, is for the opponent to just completely stop moving when they're put in gravity seed(Luna Only), or close to that. Like 'Heavy Gravity Seed' from Abyss. Because if Gravity Seed is used in Luna, I noticed the Gravity meter takes longer to recover. Gravity Seed is great enough as it is in Dia of course, but I kind of refrain myself from using it outside of combos in Luna. Edited February 7, 2014 by Dazardz
ElegantShadow Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Some ideas. Obviously not to utilize everything (some things actually may sound OP), but change ups to the character. Dia should get no gap Crescents. Luna should get sixth hit of Sickle, Far Sickles, Grab Invincible Gravity, Overhead/Guard Crush Gravity, Crescent Cancels, and Spike Chaser Cancels. Defense should get Counter Assault as 6A animation OR 6B animation that hits crouching hitboxes OR Act Parser Forward. They could even separate them based on Modes (such as Act Parser in Dia / 6A in Luna). Nu in general should get Phase Shift cancels on Block, faster j.2C that have cross-up hitboxes, better j.B hitbox on crouchers, and most of all 4B should be LOW ATTRIBUTE INVINCIBLE! (*snickers*). Interesting mechanic changes: Holding A after Specials and D moves changes modes (ex: 236D~C~A; 4B > 2DD~A). Mid-air Mode Changes. Holding A at start of match to start in Luna. Someone get this person into ASW immediately! =D I was thinking that when Nu activates her OD, since it's suppose to, more or less, combine her two forms, Sickle Storm would become fast traveling like in Dia Forma, but once it hits the opponent, it starts to spin around multiple times like in Luna Forma. The same could apply with Spike Chaser, except that it would be a combination of Dia's chargeable version and Luna's version with (slightly?) bigger hit-boxes and stun. Also, I would love if we had access to both DDs regardless of form, but they had different attributes and properties depending on what Form Nu is in. For instance, Luna could have regular Legacy Edge, while Dia has Unlimited Nu's delayable version; Luna could have regular Calamity Sword, while Dia has a long ranged version that hits opponent's regardless of where they are on the screen, and the trade off would be that it would no longer possess invulnerability frames, save for against projectiles. Edit: @Dazardz, I'd love to see that, actually. But wouldn't that make Nu's Gravity Seed combos a bit less effective, since due to the stronger Gravity, opponents would travel less distance in most combos? Edited February 7, 2014 by ElegantShadow
Dazardz Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Edit: @Dazardz, I'd love to see that, actually. But wouldn't that make Nu's Gravity Seed combos a bit less effective, since due to the stronger Gravity, opponents would travel less distance in most combos? Time to find new combo routes! =D Okay yes, yes you do have a point...
Recommended Posts