GodPress Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 How tight is the IAD timing btw? I-no in +r has an IAD link with 3-4f leniency (by my counting) and it's a bitch. I hope Venom's isn't as hard so I could always resort to using him insted if things with the lady don't work out as smoothly. Wouldn't be able to tell you. It doesn't look particularly tight and you can always replace the IAD with just a regular jump; you do lose a lot of corner carry though.
DaiAndOh Posted November 28, 2014 Author Posted November 28, 2014 How tight is the IAD timing btw? I-no in +r has an IAD link with 3-4f leniency (by my counting) and it's a bitch. I hope Venom's isn't as hard so I could always resort to using him insted if things with the lady don't work out as smoothly. As to my knowledge, none of us have played in Japan/EVO/conventions, we don't know... ...what I do know is that you can c.S IAD j.S in +R. Doesn't seem terribly hard there with some practice. But alas, it still is easier to do it without IAD technically. But the strongest players to my knowledge outside the corner always air dash. But none of us probably have a clue about QV 5P IAD combos though.
4r5 Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 assuming jump startup and airdash startup are the same as +R, c.S>iad.P would be 1-frame timing
DaiAndOh Posted December 2, 2014 Author Posted December 2, 2014 j.S is the necessary move. Save startup as P though....1 frame seems off based on how much players are hitting it in Japan but we'll see I suppose.
4r5 Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Our wiki and 4gamer's wiki says j.P and j.S are both 7frames. Only thing left is confirmation on jump and airdash startup. But 1frame sounds right. Most every iad combo in GG is a 1framer. Xrd may have a new buffer or something, but people were doing multi-1frame combos on our sped up PS2 version of AC. So it should not be surprising to see people do that combo at the success rate that we are seeing. People were dropping c.S>iad.S a lot in the early days, but now you see it on the reg. The Xrd player guild site shows Venom as one of the least played characters, but his matchup data ranks him as top tier. This suggest that Venom is being represented by a very small but hardcore group of players. Which is why you aren't seeing "many" Venoms drop this combo.
Yukikaze Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 DLoop wiki says jump startup is 3F for all characters. Is that incorrect?
4r5 Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 can you give a link? that doesn't sound right edit: oh hey, we do have jump values http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=System_Data_(GGXRD)
Kirnupiima Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 If c.S[3] gives 28 untechable frames in +R and jump startup 4f + airdash startup 7f + jS startup 7f. 28-(4+7+7)>1 Unless I'm really off with the numbers or misunderstood something.
4r5 Posted December 3, 2014 Posted December 3, 2014 4gamer's wiki doesn't say anything about c.S having added untech time. The wiki is not complete, but I would be surprised if the window was 10frames large. If it was, people shouldn't ever be dropping the link. When the game comes out tomorrow, If you can do c.S>iad.236H, then that would confirm if c.S still has the 28f of untech.
Kirnupiima Posted December 3, 2014 Posted December 3, 2014 That was for reference from the +R wiki. I doubt they'll take away something like that but we'll see in less than 22 hours :]
GodPress Posted December 4, 2014 Posted December 4, 2014 https://www.evernote.com/shard/s432/sh/e2a07045-67ce-432a-bd11-34ca0b649385/131a39dffad3db405b2afff6950d4080 My pre-release whack combo list now updated with damage values & guestimated meter gain. Edit: Just noticed the combo thread.
DaiAndOh Posted December 4, 2014 Author Posted December 4, 2014 My general impressions: It feels like his pokes have shorter but I think that's mostly 16:9 like how it affects Axl. However, 2D's range feels more significantly shorter. Sometimes, 2K>2D wouldn't connect 0_o. I think it is more consistent at getting both hits though. j.D ball hitting angle is as great as it looked! IAD combos may or may not be 1 frame windows, but they are definitely hard! Or for me at least. New formation stuff confuses me a bit...I suppose it'll just take time to learn. Carcass Raids may have had charge times reduced by about 3-5 frames? Or maybe I just got better at it? I'll be at NEC for the whole weekend, so take care everyone!
GodPress Posted December 4, 2014 Posted December 4, 2014 IAD combos may or may not be 1 frame windows, but they are definitely hard! Or for me at least. Carcass Raids may have had charge times reduced by about 3-5 frames? Or maybe I just got better at it? I'll be at NEC for the whole weekend, so take care everyone! Not sure about whether or not they're 1F but delaying the IADs enough so you don't whiff the j.HS is a pain. Carcass raid does indeed seem shorter on charge times; I'm a lot more consistent with things like j.h, c.S(1), carcass. Have fun at NEC!
antonymichiru Posted December 5, 2014 Posted December 5, 2014 I decided to main Venom :D I need tips .. It seems it's really hard to master him
Epic Posted December 6, 2014 Posted December 6, 2014 The delay on c.S[3], IAD j.S was confusing as hell at first, but I think I've got the hang of it now. What's amusing to me is that, as a person who always had issues with IAD, it seems I picked the best character to finally learn it, because almost all of Venom's longer combos have 1-2 IAD in it. Fun times.
SgtFunShinebear Posted December 8, 2014 Posted December 8, 2014 you can actually do 5K>cS>9jc (wait a second) >j.S>j.HS>j.D>land>6HS>oki rather than doing the IAD varient. It's quite a bit easier for netplay, and the only thing you lose is pushing them towards the corner.
DaiAndOh Posted December 8, 2014 Author Posted December 8, 2014 I decided to main Venom :D I need tips .. It seems it's really hard to master him I apologize, but you're going to need to be more specific than that. But I can confirm it will be very hard to master him. you can actually do 5K>cS>9jc (wait a second) >j.S>j.HS>j.D>land>6HS>oki rather than doing the IAD varient. It's quite a bit easier for netplay, and the only thing you lose is pushing them towards the corner.While yes you can, in the end, pushing them towards the corner is VERY important for this character who thrives on his pressure, lockdown,and chip damage capability, all of which are significantly increased when an opponent is in the corner.
SnowMonkeyFunky Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Edited and updated analysis on dash jS vs dash jK that I posted in the Q/A thread. (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9853-xrd-venom-qa-thread/?p=871482) Zato was my punching bag for 99% of testing this, but it 'shouldn't' make a difference unless there are wonky hitboxes for some characters as they get up. EDIT: found a wonky hitbox! Faust of course. Changes: *: Indicates edited segment, ranging from a few words to a complete overhaul. **: Indicates brand new segment -Dash jump jS is almost always better for K ball oki midscreen than dash jK. Why? *-In situations where the dash jump causes a crossup (IE almost everything ending in 2D), the jK would make the ball push the dummy away, making the low mixup of 2K clS come out as 2K fS and not allowing a followup normal on P QV from the high option. The reason for this is probably because the ball hits after you go to the other side of your opponent, reversing the knockback. The dash jS has an easier time hitting the ball in such a way that the dummy is pushed towards you as you go to the other side and land 2K/reverse airdash jS. This makes both followup combos not only possible off K ball oki, but also far easier than done from a neutral state. **-THEORY: I haven’t fully tested this, but it could be a useful gimmick. Because dash jK ball hits as you’re on the other side of the opponent as a crossup, and dash jS hits while you’re still on their front side, POSSIBLE four way mixup? If this is true, people familiar with Venom will know which way to block initially depending on the air normal used, but still useful for messing with people without much experience in this matchup. **-One exception (so far); Faust. His hitbox is super wide and really short so for knockdowns off of 2D he's better off getting dash jK over dash jS. *-for knockdowns off of 6HS, the dash jS hits the K ball at a more shallow horizontal angle, and at a faster speed. Both jS and jK are possible, but dash jS hits meaty a LOT more consistently. This comes at a price though, because at certain timings they will be pushed back too far for the low option of 2K clS(3) to work. Still possible, but very unforgiving if you botch the timing. Basically, if you’re not confident in your timing and you’ve conditioned your opponent to stay still on oki, then dash jK is overall a lot easier. *-The only situation midscreen where dash jK is favorable is off of 1-2 point blank low pushback hits into 2D. The awkward range seems to be the knockdown distance between dash momentum 2K 2D xx K ball and point blank no dash momentum 2K clS (1) 2D xx K ball. This is because if they decide to crouch, the jS' ball hit angle will make it whiff. If you feel like you really would rather set up dash jS midscreen off of a close 2K or something similar, do either 2K clS (2) 2D xx K ball stuff or 2K 2S 2D xx K ball stuff. Be aware of this range when setting up K ball off of 2D from a gatling. What about the corner?: *-Corner K ball oki actually benefits more from dash jK's vertical angle and slower speed for both primary knockdowns. I couldn't really find any situations where dash jS would be favorable here. Note that if you end a combo in a really close 6HS xx K ball, they K ball may whiff on a crouching opponent. In this case, something like K > S ball set after 6HS compensates by putting the K ball at a position closer to +R’s K ball sweet spot, making it uncrouchable, as well as giving you a second ball for various little gimmicks. How do you time dash jS for K ball oki?: *-The best way I can describe it for off a 2D is that you are reacting to their rising animation and inputting dash jS as they're getting up. This is a good bit later than dash jK's preemptively timed hit. To test if you're timing it right, record the dummy to stand there for about a second, then hold up for five or so seconds. Hit playback, then do 2K 2S 2D xx K ball, react to rising and dash jump jS. If they get hit by the ball and they're still standing, you timed it right. Also be sure to practice against lower crouchers like Zato/Venom/Faust/etc. You can also do slight delay into longer dash jS. A little more strict when doing your followup, but still possible with practice. -For off of 6HS it's only a miniscule delay. The extra speed and shallow angle make it so that there isn't much difference between using dash jK and dash jS. And that's it, at least from what I could find. If anyone finds any discrepancies or flat out inaccuracies please let me know and I'll fix it.
Justice7541 Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 Anyone got any good pickups or oki off QV frametrap? I've been getting lots of random hits with it (on scrubs who don't block) but I can't figure out a good way to combo off it since they're usually too far to pick up with 5P/5K and the link window is too small to microdash very far.
DaiAndOh Posted December 11, 2014 Author Posted December 11, 2014 Not sure how long you have but most of Venom's standard oki setups should apply after a QV (which would be K and S>P setups primarily). Generally you won't be able to do combos off it when used as a pressure tool, on counterhit you really have to be looking for it to happen to be ready for a followup (even in high level matches, QV followup to counterhit is very rare), but generally you should be able to use Venom's general combo theory there.
Justice7541 Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 I'll workshop it. Been trying some stuff with charged QV. Full charge QV > 5P hit is pretty much +infinity on block, and partial charges are pretty decent too. Just need to figure out a legit way to make it happen, may need to 2D RC > charge. Edit: Is Carcass charge time extra long? I feel like I can never get it out in pressure strings. I can only really seem to get it off a double hit 2D or c.S(3) 2S. Also, it looks like c.S always get 3 hits on blocking opponents, even if it normally whiffs on hit?
SynikaL Posted December 13, 2014 Posted December 13, 2014 Has there ever been a quality Venom that minimized the charge aspects of the character? I love Venom, but I've always kinda hated learning charage characters. I just want to see how far I can take him before I buckle down and really start integrating Stinger and CR into my game. -Kimosabae
TittyFOFO Posted December 13, 2014 Posted December 13, 2014 It's definitely doable. The charge attacks aren't essential to combos anymore, so as long as your ball formations, poking, oki, and combos are up to par, you'll be fine. Not to imply you'll never want to use the charge attacks, but he's not really built around them.
DaiAndOh Posted December 13, 2014 Author Posted December 13, 2014 While he's not built around them, they are very essential to zoning and pressure. Carcass is also essential to the optimized throw bnb.I say just practice and keep at it. I think his most important Carcass pressure string is 2K, c.S(2) Carcass, since it will work on crouchers. Try practicing that!
TittyFOFO Posted December 14, 2014 Posted December 14, 2014 So, stuff: All three hits of 5S© will connect on Potemkin and Bedman while crouching. Hooray 5HS xx QV only works on crouchers, baring CH. Kinda sucks since you can only get all 3 hits of 5S© at point blank range against most characters, which is going to hurt our ability to standardize combos. You really have to pay attention to position and status of the other character when you land a mixup to be effective, outside of the corner anyway. Range on PQV seems to be slightly shorter than all the others. Holding the attack button to warp directly after a ball summon seems to leave Venom slightly higher than a manual warp. Prolly not enough to effect setups, but shrug.
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