[Xrd] Venom Gameplay Discussion

[DaiAndOh]

Most of these are known or suspected, but are essential.

On the last note, it's because you get warped to the spot where the ball is as the teleport input is accepted. This is when the ball is still in motion for positioning though, which is why the locations are different.

[DaiAndOh]

A tip I got from looking at the JP Venom wiki, against Blitzback (them Blitz shielding while rejecting), a low risk idea is using QV since it's a projectile.

 

Thinking about it more, there maybe more time to charge it too. At worse they block and you get a charged ball.

[Zeldias]

So I like charge characters generally speaking (not always, but often), and while I haven't played GG since something like 2003, I have fond memories of the game. I played Chipp back then (before I came to like charge characters) and was generally pretty terrible, lol.

So fast forward to today, where I've mostly gotten accustomed to Skullgirls and Street Fighter, and GG now feels like some hellish landscape. Half the time I can't even tell wtf Faust is doing. And I really like Venom, but holy shit, I suck. I can see that I suck, but I have no goddamn idea what to do about it.

I usually like to zone with some options for aggression, which I felt like Venom had, but it seems like all my buttons get me punched in the mouth. I'm guessing that I'm either failing at spacing, challenging the wrong shit up close, or it's just netplay stuff because I swear sometimes I connect before I get smacked down.

Anyways, what's Venom's game plan? Set up balls, pressure into balls, then more balls, right? I feel like I'm failing to understand something fundamental either with him or with GG generally. I read through the threads but there's nothing really like a primer to give me an idea of where I want to be or how I want to approach things. I kinda just run up, K > S > Sweep into...Something. QV or Ball Summon or Stinger Aim. If they block, should I still be doing that? I basically feel like I don't know how I want to start pressure and I don't know how to fight someone off when the pressure gets started on me.

Thanks.

[Justice7541]

I'm kind of a shitty scrub Venom myself still but:

 

2S is god.  j.P is good for mashing shit in the air and j.K is good for jump-in.  Don't press j.S or j.H so much, they're slow and the hitbox isn't that great unless you're trying to beat out specific things with them.

 

QV is -4 on block so don't overuse it.  You probably won't get punished for it unless they're specifically looking for it but QV > 2P ball hit is a 9f gap where they can counterhit you before your ball even goes active, so it's not a great pressure tool.  It is good for frametraps if they're mashing though.  Ball summon is unsafe as hell on block, don't do it.  It's good as an oki tool though, you can either do something basic like P set > 5P for a simple safe meaty, K set > microdash jump j.K for a safe meaty crossup, or S > H sets > 5P for a double ball zoning pattern if they're not immediately mashing you on wakeup.

 

Lastly, for pressure, do Carcass Ride instead of Stinger Aim if you can make them block it, Carcass is insanely + on block (+10 at point-blank) so if you can buffer your down charge properly during blockstrings it's fantastic for resetting pressure into frametraps or tick throws.  S Stinger Aim is fine for frametraps and H is good for RCing into full combos, but it's not very advantageous on block so it's not really worth giving up a mixup opportunity for IMO.

 

Also, Venom's throw is really good.  Probably one of the best normal throws in the game since he gets big damage (for a throw) and consistent oki off it, so abuse it.

[DaiAndOh]

Help

Thanks.

 

Moved this here.

Venom is more aggression that can zone, rather than zoning that can be aggressive btw. Also his pokes aren't very active and are thin but cover good horizontal space, have to be precise. Many opponents won't let you get balls out for free, you need to earn them (or YRC setting them).

There's a lot to write about Venom and his gameplan, and that's part of why I haven't touched a full wiki writeup yet (just moves and basic gameplan, check it out if you haven't yet). And it can take a long time to get the hang of a character like Venom who requires knowledge and precision.

Pressure starters are mostly 2K, c.S, airdash normals, blocked Carcass Raids, blocked hit balls, and YRC Stinger and Carcass. c.S is the general point you should be confirming if they hit or block, and if they're standing or crouching. Work from there.

If you haven't watch high level videos to see if you can get an idea on what's going on there. The players to look for are Fino, Isamu, and Sanma.

[DaiAndOh]

I'm kind of a shitty scrub Venom myself still but:

 

2S is god.  j.P is good for mashing shit in the air and j.K is good for jump-in.  Don't press j.S or j.H so much, they're slow and the hitbox isn't that great unless you're trying to beat out specific things with them.

 

 

j.S is just as fast as j.P. It has much more recovery of course if you whiff though.

j.HS has a much better downward hitbox than j.K, except crossup wise. It's only one frame slower.

[Zeldias]

So better footsies? I feel like all my normals get blown up and it leaves me befuddled. Was probably approaching the wrong way. I've been playing a lot of SF lately so I might have gotten used to those sweet Guile normals. I was beginning to get the feeling that Venom was a lot more technical than I'd bargained for, but the only other character that tickled my fancy was Axl. Been working on learning his normals (which manage to simultaneously feel better and worse than Venom's for me) but he hasn't been clicking as well with me.

I'd been doing Stinger on block, will switch to Carcass.

Is there ever gonna be a reason I want to teleport? Seems too slow and predictable to be super handy.

And so basically, finnicky normals, Carcass to finish block strings, find a knockdown/YRC, then balls for increased pressure? Guess I should be on the look out for throws then since I could set up balls after I hit my opponent away?

[Justice7541]

So better footsies? I feel like all my normals get blown up and it leaves me befuddled. Was probably approaching the wrong way. I've been playing a lot of SF lately so I might have gotten used to those sweet Guile normals. I was beginning to get the feeling that Venom was a lot more technical than I'd bargained for, but the only other character that tickled my fancy was Axl. Been working on learning his normals (which manage to simultaneously feel better and worse than Venom's for me) but he hasn't been clicking as well with me.

I'd been doing Stinger on block, will switch to Carcass.

Is there ever gonna be a reason I want to teleport? Seems too slow and predictable to be super handy.

And so basically, finnicky normals, Carcass to finish block strings, find a knockdown/YRC, then balls for increased pressure? Guess I should be on the look out for throws then since I could set up balls after I hit my opponent away?

 

You can do a full combo off a throw.  Check the combo thread.

 

Teleport goes to the newest ball you've set on stage so you can do some silly stuff like H ball set > H Stinger to put a ball really far out then teleport to it.  It is kind of a gimmick but it can be useful in some situations.

[DaiAndOh]

While that part is a bit more gimmicky, teleport keeps you mobile and active. You can also keep the mobility up by cancelling into teleport from a summon by holding the button down. It's essential to playing Venom in this version (and it's actually the fastest it has ever been!)

 

However, very rarely do you want to teleport without a ball out.

[9:02 PM]

Do any of our venom players understand why QV is still -4 on instant block?

[DaiAndOh]

I had no idea it was....and source about that?

It's a projectile but I imagine that wouldn't affect it?

[9:02 PM]

You can just test it in training mode. I used a 60fps capture card, but you can tell using a dummy, especially when you try to punish it with a 5f normal.

[Coolestred01]

I been playing Guilty Gear Xrd for about a week now and I been having trouble with the Chipp matchup it seems venom cant get very optimized punishes against alpha blade at certain spacings and its hard to keep him out of my face any tips? 

[DaiAndOh]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9912-venom-vs-chipp/

[wirestyle22]

In every fighting game I have ever played I run into a character identity crisis (except vsav). I analyzed as much information as I could get my hands on as to how the entire cast played--and here we are. I have never cared about tier lists and i'm not about to start now. I watch a ton of N-O videos (is he still playing?) and I've simultaneously learned and become confused. 

 

Venom seems like his game plan at neutral is to force blocking and abuse frame advantage to set up his offense. If he can't do this he has to stay mobile and cover different areas of the screen until he can get his offense going. Now, Once he uses his pressure to get a hit--typically high low out of frame advantage, he chains into knockdown to set up balls for more pressure and more Mixup/Possible damage. Am I understanding this character correctly? you guys have anything to add?

 

Here's what I'm confused about. Outside of Throw/2k/Mad Struggle what real threat does he pose? I read on the wiki that dark angel doesn't raise guard meter? So what, its only useful for chip damage I guess or does it lock them in block long enough for your to get multiple mix-up attempts?

 

Also whats the deal with ball formations? I feel like I'm missing something important. I'm sure that the different formations are used for specific reasons, but I also think there are uses for this stuff outside of the cookie cutter options I've seen listed.

 

Thanks in advance. Venom seems like a very daunting character to pick up, but I'm motivated.

[Epic]

Dark Angel is pretty much useless in Xrd for the reason you mentioned. You'll have more luck abusing the crap out of YRCs. Double Head Morbid in to RC is also a great option to spend your meter.

 

Basically I always thought of Venom as a character that's supposed to piss your opponent off. Like you've said he doesn't have a lot of options to open someone up. So you just sit on someone until he runs out of patience and makes a mistake, then you punish. Unless you can land a hit yourself of course. In example a simple blockstring into Carcas Raid that leads to a counter hit, dash, combo.

Back in the day you only could go for knockdowns out of hits until you reached the corner. In Xrd he finally has a reliable corner carry that's easy to set up. This is his go-to combo most of the time. The damage you get from it is also something that he never had outside of Dubious Corve loops.

 

As for formations, besides the most common ones used for pressure, you can pretty much freestyle with them as long as you have some distance and know what you're doing, with the goal to cover as much screen as possible with them to to narrow the space where your opponent can move freely. For the same reason as above. You use balls to force the opponent to make a move and then react to what they did. In the corner you can use them to help you link normals that normally wouldn't although this was nerfed a bit in Xrd with the change to how stinger shots colide with other balls, but it still has it's uses. 

So I think you could divide formations into those which put your opponent into a bad situation that requires them to move or to cover your own approach after a knockdown. The more knowledge and experience you have about this character as well as the game's system, the better you get at mixing this up and figuring out new ways to use his tools.

[wirestyle22]

Thanks for the response. Dark Angel seems to allow for almost invisible mixup? (I think it overlaps venoms model right? maybe I'm forgetting I'm at work).

[GodPress]

Thanks for the response. Dark Angel seems to allow for almost invisible mixup? (I think it overlaps venoms model right? maybe I'm forgetting I'm at work).

It can, if they're blocking Dark Angel and you're not setting up balls you can chase it down and high/low from it. That said, its still not as strong as other projectile supers (Ramlethals). 

[Justice7541]

Throws are really good in general so I don't think it's a significant issue if Venom's high/low mixup isn't amazing outside of it. Venom's in particularly is exceptionally good since it always leads to solid damage (80-100 depending on positioning) and whatever oki you want, compared to most other characters who get maybe 40-50 damage and limited oki. I believe Venom can also OS the throw with 6S+H (throw if successful, c.S if they jump out) which works out for him pretty well since c.S hits pretty high and comes out quite fast. In fact I think it's one of his fastest normals.

[DaiAndOh]

c.S is 5 frames, tied for fastest with 2K (please start checking the frame data instead of going by what you believe in the case in the facts).

 

Yes 6S+HS is his option select. In addition to helping against people jumping out if yo're outside of throw range or your opponent is throw invincible (5 frames on wakeup or out of blockstun), c.S is not only 5 frames, but it's the basis of Venom's pressure game and pressure confirms as well.

 

Remember that even though Venom isn't the best at opening up others, he does do more chip with his pressure than anyone else in the game.

[Justice7541]

c.S is 5 frames, tied for fastest with 2K (please start checking the frame data instead of going by what you believe in the case in the facts).

 

Yes 6S+HS is his option select. In addition to helping against people jumping out if yo're outside of throw range or your opponent is throw invincible (5 frames on wakeup or out of blockstun), c.S is not only 5 frames, but it's the basis of Venom's pressure game and pressure confirms as well.

 

Remember that even though Venom isn't the best at opening up others, he does do more chip with his pressure than anyone else in the game.

 

Yo I was typing from my phone, cut me some slack.  I'm working from memory here, I knew c.S was 5f startup but I couldn't remember if Venom had any 4f pokes.

[DaiAndOh]

Only because you were wrong before about frame data before already. You can use your phone to check the frame data on DL or use the app Pro Fighter, which has Xrd frame data.

[xxteefxx]

Hello everyone. ive been playing Venom for 2 days so far in Xrd, having a blast. due to Work and school(Art) i wont be able to fully dedicate myself to this game. though i have a break now so why not. i compiled a quick video of setups, oki and ball formations that i feel are essential or basics foundation for venom? this is what i can conclude in my game so far, and it seems so far well rounded. anyways i shall post full explanatory tomorrow , if u have any question please feel free. hopefully i will be able to explain the ideas in each part.

Basically they are: Oki setups. Traps and tricks. Ball formations. Pressure. regular combos/ Mix ups/ follow ups

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8TVpql2gg0&list=UU59p4ocfCFQ43ZwllsTO7Uw&index=1

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61_f6RI5dkU&list=UU59p4ocfCFQ43ZwllsTO7Uw&index=2

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Pretty neat teef. I'm gonna be stealing a couple of those.

 

 

On an unrelated note, how do you guys feel about raw YRC as a way to mess with your opponents rhythm or allow you to react to and deal with situations you otherwise couldn't? I actually found it fairly useful when fighting Slayer; raw YRC into dash under 6P lets Venom AA the otherwise incontestable jHS. I'm sure it has applications beyond this, any ideas?

[DaiAndOh]

Hello everyone. ive been playing Venom for 2 days so far in Xrd, having a blast. due to Work and school(Art) i wont be able to fully dedicate myself to this game. though i have a break now so why not. i compiled a quick video of setups, oki and ball formations that i feel are essential or basics foundation for venom? this is what i can conclude in my game so far, and it seems so far well rounded. anyways i shall post full explanatory tomorrow , if u have any question please feel free. hopefully i will be able to explain the ideas in each part.

Basically they are: Oki setups. Traps and tricks. Ball formations. Pressure. regular combos/ Mix ups/ follow ups

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8TVpql2gg0&list=UU59p4ocfCFQ43ZwllsTO7Uw&index=1

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61_f6RI5dkU&list=UU59p4ocfCFQ43ZwllsTO7Uw&index=2

 

There's some good stuff. but the videos lack presentation and are kind of sloppy (there are sequences where the opponent looks like they should be blocking, it wouldn't make sense to get hit and you treat it like they block), and some setups here are just inefficient for the meter to my eye (would do well to add annotations explanations rather than just posting the videos with barely any context I feel). In addition, some of these are definitely not basic. You're quite amazing with your charging though, I didn't even know you could be that close to charge multiple S Carcass!

 

 

Pretty neat teef. I'm gonna be stealing a couple of those.

 

 

On an unrelated note, how do you guys feel about raw YRC as a way to mess with your opponents rhythm or allow you to react to and deal with situations you otherwise couldn't? I actually found it fairly useful when fighting Slayer; raw YRC into dash under 6P lets Venom AA the otherwise incontestable jHS. I'm sure it has applications beyond this, any ideas?

 

That's definitely useful. YRC to help anti-airs (including air throw ones) or to help disrupt opponent AA's (started doing this last night, usually I'll do formation YRC in the air to get a ball out as well).