[Xrd] Slayer Gameplay Discussion

[Uncivilized Elk]

Were they afraid he would be too dominant if these were left unchanged?

 

 

I assume so, because if you could do the stuff you can off CH normally Slayer would be ridiculous.

[Wirya]

Footlose was always techable. The great things about footlose were: 
1. the damage! It was 36x3 in #R;

2. it launched grounded opponent for an air combo (which, along with footlose itself, would do terrific tensionless damage and could also give a hard knockdown);

 

Thankfully, the above points are still true in Xrd. It can still launch a grounded opponent for an air combo afterwards, but the timing is a bit tighter with the added landing recovery frames. (Also it does more pushback now?)

[Tan-Tan]

Hello all, new Slayer player here. I've been playing him since the JP release and even though he doesn't have quite the same tools before, I decided to main him because he's pretty fun, but i've been having a few issues:

 

1. What is the best way to apply pressure after a knockdown?

2. I was playing a former top GG player and he was playing Chipp against me.When I tried to do Under Pressure and mix it up between Too Late and 2K, he would just jab me out of the followup by mashing. This also happened to me against a local Ky player. Is thee any way to set that up or another alternative if the person is mashing? Same thing when the oppoent is mashing jab when I Dandy Step on wakeup.

3. What is the best strategy to fight against Potenkim? I've ben having issues dealing with that character overall.

4. Is the only thing I can do after Mappa punch is block or is it because I use K Mappa more than P Mappa that I get too close to the opopnent?

 

I hope you guys can really help me out. I really enjoy playing Slayer, but there have been times that I just can't seem to do anything and feel that all hsi options are pretty telegraphed and it frustrates me.

[Loli-Zero]

1. If you're talking about mixups, go for a whiffed under pressure into its late, 2K, dash through c.S, or bite. If you just want to force your opponent to block, c.S or 5K canceled into 6HS-dandy step is good. Also meaty 5HS into dandy or 2HS are good options. If you expect a DP or mash you can dandy away and YRC, then respond to what they did. Also meaty 2D or 6K have their place.

2. I assume you mean on block. Under pressure is 0 on block, which means you have good options unless you are instant blocked. If you're getting instant blocked you are probably using it too much, and should mixup with empty dandy steps into throw/bite or dash throughs.

Slayer's 2K is 6 frames, so you shouldn't get mashed out unless your opponent is using a 5 frame jab. If that's the case, try mixing in another dandy step instead of pressing a button, then respond to what they did with one of the follow ups, or even YRC Mappa to catch 2Ps. Your other best options are probably BDC bite or BDC mappa. Both of these tools are really important if you want to blow up mashing and condition opponents to block allowing you to return to mixups.

3. Potemkin is always a difficult matchup. Usually the matchup leans in slayers favor at a high level, but only if you are specifically playing the matchup and abandoning most of slayers normal play style.

Potemkin has big health/guts stats and is much harder to kill then most characters. This means slayers strength of big damage is less relevant. However, pot himself does huge damage. There is no way around this, other then making sure you know max damage combos to finish out a round. If you leave Pot with a pixel he will probably kill you.

Potemkin gives slayer's neutral game many problems. His large normals beat many of yours. Slide head knocks you out of dandy steps and other ground movement. Pot buster can grab you out of ground approaches and 6HS. Hammer fall absorbs slayers big hit normals and then punishes him. To respond to these things, be careful with your movement options. Dandy step sparingly, especially if you have no meter for YRC. Bait hammerfalls, but keep an eye on his meter.

Look for oppurtunities to 2HS slide head. 2Hs is low invuln so you will CH him. This is more difficult because 2Hs has smaller range, but should still be important. Try and stay airborne more often then you normally would, but be smart about your approaches because Potemkin has strong AA's. Footloose and j.S are good jumpins because the multi hit property will stop hammerfalls.

Abuse 6P in neutral. It has a strong horizontal range, has invincibility above your knees, and will CH potemkins long reaching normals. 5HS outside of his poke range is a good move as well. You can follow up with pilebunker on CH.

Pot buster is 3 frame startup. This use to punish k Mappa on hit. K Mappa is -2 on hit now though, so you can use it more then you would (just rarely do anything offensive afterwards). Pot can backdash pot buster to blowup most of slayers oki. To counter this you should abuse BDC Mappa, p dandy step CWH, or things like late sweep. Find what works best for you, but you have to respect and punish his backdash or you will consistently lose to scrubby potemkins.

It's late is strong against Potemkin because it has throw invuln on startup. There is one frame where it is throwable before the active frames, but it's difficult to expoit that gap if you are defending against slayer. CH leads to big damage.

There's more to the matchup then those things, but hopefully that gives you some things to start thinking about.

4. Blockstrings into K Mappa will be -2 unless they instant block. If they instant block you are screwed. If they don't, your best bet is BDC P Mappa to counter mashing. Try and condition your opponents with this before you attempt post Mappa offense. CH Mappa combos into DOT or 5K K Mappa RC combos, so you should be able to punish people hard for just mashing.

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[MasterXDrake]

Where can I watch good Slayer gameplay? Who are the best Slayer players??

[SiQ]

so what do you guys do vs Zato i find it hard to get in with Drill,Buzzsaw, and 2S controlling the ground making me feel like my only way to approach is in the air and when i do shark bodies me. i've tried using 6P vs his 2S i guess its like 60/40 in his favor beating my 6P which allows him a free knockdown with drill

[Loli-Zero]

Where can I watch good Slayer gameplay? Who are the best Slayer players??

http://horibuna.web.fc2.com/GGXrd/

 

http://keeponrock.in/match/search_form#content

 

Taka is probably the best active XRD player that you can regularly find footage of.  Adam is also quite good.

 

If you can ever find footage of Kubo or En watch it.  They are old Slayer Gods, but don't play much XRD (at least on stream).

 

so what do you guys do vs Zato i find it hard to get in with Drill,Buzzsaw, and 2S controlling the ground making me feel like my only way to approach is in the air and when i do shark bodies me. i've tried using 6P vs his 2S i guess its like 60/40 in his favor beating my 6P which allows him a free knockdown with drill

 

Zato is probably Slayer's worst matchup in this game.  Zato got more tools to help the matchup and Slayer lost some of his most important ones (BDC 1 frame jump and j.HS CH ground bounce).  In this matchup you have to take big risks.  K mappa when you see an opening, especially if you have meter.  Long dash if there are holes in his neutral patterns.  IAD footloose YRC to get in safely.  2P Shadow Eddie when you can.  If you can instant block 2S, iad j.S or long dash throw to stop drill blockstrings. 

 

Learn to antiair Zato's fly with CH 5P into 6HS Pilebunker/CWH.  This is really, really important.  Eddie's instant fly j.K is still good, but not as broken as it was in reload, so you have more opportunities to do this.  6P can be good in this matchup too.

 

Most importantly, if you get in, you have to bait Zato's burst and kill him.  Don't drop your combos and convert for max damage or strong oki.  Don't letup, he has bad defensive options (watch out for reversal super though).  If he gets out of your pressure, or bursts you, you may not get another chance to kill him.  Play smart, and be unpredictable but controlled and you can win.

[Melo]

Footlose was always techable. The great things about footlose were: 

1. the damage! It was 36x3 in #R;

2. it launched grounded opponent for an air combo (which, along with footlose itself, would do terrific tensionless damage and could also give a hard knockdown);

 

Thankfully, the above points are still true in Xrd. It can still launch a grounded opponent for an air combo afterwards, but the timing is a bit tighter with the added landing recovery frames. (Also it does more pushback now?)

 

I must be really confused then lol.

[Loli-Zero]

About It's Late... if you want a meterless combo off of It's Late you have to hit with it's late active frames (6 active frames. Also, pun intended). So to do this you do it as a meaty, and since it's throw inv. it's great as a meaty attack right? Well...

It's Late

Start up: 14

Active: 6

Recovery: 12

Throw inv.: 1-13

Meaning you have to choose to bait throw by timing it with the throw inv. startup frames, or timing it meaty so you get enough +frames for meterless combo, but you can be thrown. This apparently was the case with +R, but I just found this out, so heads up people!

Okay. I finally had time to test this out. Your math is spot on, but it's not as troubling as it sounds. Here's what I did.

I went into training mode with slayer vs slayer. Then I recorded a sequence in each of the 3 training slots. Each sequence began with the following combo: Throw RC 5HS j.S(1) j.HS delay j.D j.2K j.K JC j.S(1) j.HS j.D. Then, upon landing, each recording had a variation of timing for the following inputs: p-dandy under pressure (whiff) it's late 2K K Mappa.

For the first slot I did the dandy step as soon as possible, and then canceled into its late as soon as possible. When I played it back, it successfully meatied me and connected the 2K. Then I practiced throwing it. Here is the deal: on wake up throws are 0 frames, and can therefore throw meaties. Also, as yuhoke has noted, once the active frames for its late have started it is no longer throw invuln. However, once the active hitbox has connected with the character, you cannot throw as you are in blockstun. Therefore, it is throwable, but only with just frame timing. I tried mashing throw, and while I never got counter hit I never got throw even once. Then I tried timing it. At first I was getting it about 50% of the time, but then once the timing was in my head I got it consistently.

For the second slot I continued to do under pressure asap but delayed the cancel into it's late as much as I could. This caused the 2K to not combo, but the setup remained throwable. This was likely early in the active frames or on the frame before the active frames, and is an example of a failed setup. The results of trying to throw it were the same as slot 1.

For the third slot, in addition to delaying the it's late cancel as much as possible, I also added a very brief pause between landing and inputting dandy step. This resulted in the 2K not comboing (duh), and it's late counter hitting throws effectively. In theory, this setup has one frame where it is throwable, but you have to delay the throw a few frames after you have already woken up and there is no timing limit to brush up against (where as in setup one throwing on the first available frame is how you successfully throw). When trying to wait and throw I did not succeed once. I only got counter hit, or occasionally did it too late and was forced to block.

Finally, I set the playback on random, and tried to throw the cycling setups. I did not succeed once (though sometimes I blocked).

In conclusion, this means going for the meaty is throwable but it is difficult. Bad players who mash will not successfully do it. Good players can try but if they fail they have to block hi (or low if you did meaty 2K). Even if someone can consistently do this, they have to commit to the throw press before they see if there is a gap or not, and if you did a throw bait setup instead, they will be CH hit out of startup of 5HS or 6HS (or 5S if they are using the 6S+HS option select). The timing for the two options will likely vary depending on what ender you use. Don't forget, you cannot do the setup early enough to get a comboable meaty it's late off of combos ending in 2D (however 2D from far away gives you enough frames if it hits late in its active frames). Also, players can attempt to back dash or jump block the throw bait setup, but if you did a meaty they get hit. If you do the throw bait right there is not enough room for anyone to mash a 5 frame normal, and maybe not even reversals depending on how quick the startup is.

You can get MASSIVE damage off of CH it's late. If you buffer a P dandy step ahead of time you can confirm into CWH on CH (and then do a CWH loop on most characters) or do under pressure/nothing if they blocked or got a normal hit. If you happen to get blocked, you are +1 unless they instant blocked, so that is not so bad either.

This is a good character. If you are a smart player, and take the time to understand how people think on defense, and why mixups work you can open people up like they are a can of beans. Happy throw baiting, kids.

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[TheRealBobMan]

Hey so, the Frame Data page doesn't have info on this (the 4gamer wiki was pretty minimalist when it came to extra info), but it looks like Slayer's Air Super still has 2 hits.  If I use it on Potemkin at full health it hits for 93 and staggers, but if I TK it right in his face so low that it looks like I didn't even leave the ground, it hits for 112 and doesn't stagger.

 

Yeah, I can confirm it.  5D against Pot in the corner > hold back, TK air super hits 3 times for 127.  If I wall splat and only get 2 hits I do 73.  I'll update the wiki after confirming the base damage for the second hit; you guys play with this and have fun.  : )

[fogelstrom]

http://horibuna.web.fc2.com/GGXrd/

 

http://keeponrock.in/match/search_form#content

 

Taka is probably the best active XRD player that you can regularly find footage of.  Adam is also quite good.

 

If you can ever find footage of Kubo or En watch it.  They are old Slayer Gods, but don't play much XRD (at least on stream).

 

 

Zato stuff

I'd say Hase > Taka. But there's indeed alot more footage of Taka but Hase always just blows my mind with the stuff he does. I really wish we had more footage of him playing considering he has the second highest match count after FAB I've seen on any card.

I personally don't think Adam is any good. There are other Slayer who easily are better, Sanma for example. I don't know who the Slayer at A-Cho is. He's Dan 11-12, using a un-named card (GG Player) and using default color. He's good as well.

I also noted that the Zato matchup is really horrendous for Slayer. If they apply smart pressure and 'safely' desummon Eddie just doing 2 drills (that are very hard for Slayer to deal with) they have 100% meter to apply free pressure with again. I'm having a really hard time against Zato but this matchup really is you having to fight a uphill battle using good footsies, fundamentals and understanding of both Zato and your own character.

 

It's Late oki tech

I don't know man. I feel that even with variation to the timing I'm getting thrown. After getting about using meaty It's Late setups I get thrown practically all the time. Also I know for a fact some people I play MASH LIKE CRAZY on wakeup and get throw, to mee it feels like you don't have to time it on wakeup. So I started to attempt to hit with the startup frames for throw invul at oki (without any practice to the timing) and didn't really work out, most likely because I missed the timing but felt weird since I would have 13F of throw invul. But I'd guess this is what you'd wanna do to condition people to go like "oh I can't throw this guy on wakeup and getting CH'd into 200+dmg each time".

I also think Slayer is a nice character but it bothers me that at this point I'm getting frustrated with peoples lack of knowledge of Slayer's mixups and just mashing like crazy. It's bothersome and boring to try and educate people whilst playing against them. Some people don't even try to understand/learn and for me that gets super boring. Having to flowchart Slayer is the worst.

No one gonna post some of their own matches? I still need some inspiration and motivation!

I'll look into maybe bringing my recording equipment along next meetup and record some sets if it isn't too bothersome to disconnect.

[TheRealBobMan]

Hey so, I updated the wiki a while ago, the 2nd hit is 120 damage.  I decided to mess around and see how much damage the old Dead on Time > Straight Down Dandy combo would do on Chipp, and I haven't been able to get 2 hits even when DoT is a Counter Hit.  For the record though, both hits of SDD is 273 on Chipp.

 

 

I did however find out that you can hit with just the second hit of the air super, and that it's a projectile so you can YRC and still get the hit.  The second hit floats if the first hit doesn't connect, so YRC might let you pull off a flashy combo after.  Besides that, in the corner I got 'CH 2H > TK SDD (2 hits) > RC > 6H > PB' for 304 on Chipp.  You guys can probably optimize the follow up after the super RC a hell of a lot better than I can since I don't play Slayer.  Or you might find a better setup than 2H, which has the 80% prorate.

[Yuhoke]

 But I'd guess this is what you'd wanna do to condition people to go like "oh I can't throw this guy on wakeup and getting CH'd into 200+dmg each time".

 

Yeah, I agree. Going into new matches against people, you should start by doing It's Late to beat wakeup throw mash. When you've conditioned them to NOT mash throw on wakeup, then you can start to apply other things.

[fogelstrom]

However it's unfortunate that "the only times" you will apply this is after a 2D hitting on later frames and after j.D.
Whilst most likely about half the damage you are doing is going to be from pokes, throws and various other stuff.
I'm gonna try Loli's tactic and record a bnb with different It's Late timing to get a feeling when I'll blow up throws. It's a good idea and I can see myself using this 90% on oki after spaced 2D/j.D because western style is masher style!

[Loli-Zero]

Dude this is guilty gear. You get meter for sneezing, and meter = combos with oki. I played last night on netplay for a long time. Anytime I played someone new, I would try to play footsies into a knockdown, do small reward mixups or pressure until I got throw or Mappa with 50 meter stacked, and then did throw bait it's late. Usually it CH and then I would win off that.

If you do it a few times with no counter hit, or your playing offline and you know your opponent's habits you can start mixing it up.

I also played a friend last night, who blocked high and rarely went for throw. So I just went low everytime and he got blown up over and over. Eventually he started blocking low sometimes, and even threw me once. So I started mixing in the other 2 options and he was screwed. I won any match I could get a solid knockdown on, if I didn't drop my combos cause of netplay.

What you don't realize is few characters have setplay that are any better then this. Zato certainly does, but he's really hard to play or even just execute neutral/combos with at a high level. Milia does but she suffers in neutral as a price.

If you are having trouble with the CH timing just do whiff under pressure into BDC Mappa. But I dunno man, I won a round last night off of CH IL D-Step CWH 6HS PB RC 6HS PB and was pretty happy I learned the setplay.

And speaking of Hase... I've seen him do this setplay and then YRC after the whiffed under pressure and then go low. The YRC eats their inputs, making you safe from throws and then you get a free low mixup. Not something you want to do all the time, but good to sprinkle in if you are worried about throws but want to do mixups too

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[SiQ]

i just saw a video and it looked like the Slayer player did 2K and dash canceled it  into cmd grab i just started player slayer recently so idk if thats what happend

 

 

actually nvm i think he just dashed after the recovery of 2K

[Tan-Tan]

Thanks alot Loli-Zero, I will test these things and try it out at today's local session. Btw, how does BDC work? I don't know if I ever do it right or not or what the added benefits are.

[fogelstrom]

 How does BDC work? I don't know if I ever do it right or not or what the added benefits are.

You Tiger Knee any special move since back and forward dash are jump cancelable (spelling?).

Easiest is probably BDC Mappa where as the input would be 44, 2369. The added 9 makes you tiger knee/jump cancel the Mappa out of the backdash. You add 6 frames of invul for any special move this way. Though I find it difficult to BDC much else than Mappa. You can visually see that he does a backdash then a special move straight from it, like a few startup frames are missing/blurred from the BDC.

 

No matches to record/show Loli? Also glad your finding online play-worthy. For me it's quite shitty as I can barely do anything online. Not even K-Dandy bait a Benten from Axl and/or simple stuff getting dropped/not coming out. It's better then nothing but I feel like I just can't do any good online vs offline. Whilst playing in the same country all with wired fiber connection.

[Loli-Zero]

I don't have anything recorded. But I played a bunch on PJS winning stream last night so maybe im floating in the archives as Mori-Zero.

By the way, if you're figuring out setplay timings make sure you look at the frame data for face up and face down wake ups on the dustloop wiki. You'll have to make adjustments for some characters. Also combo into 2D might let you meaty on characters with extra long face down times, so that's good

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[The_undercover_beret]

Here are some useful anti-air combos, fairly intuitive but they are some intricacies.

 

AA 5P J.P J.K ~

 

After the J.K:

- If you are far from your opponent or if he is below you: (J.P) J.D (Not guaranteed)  - (80)74 Damage

 

- If opponent is way above: ~ jc J.S(1) J.HS  J.D (J.2K J.P J.D) - 105(131) Damage 

Last part is char and height specific.

 

- If the opponent is above: J.P J.D J.2K J.K jc J.S(1) J.HS J.D - 130 Damage

 

- If the opponent is at the same height: Same combo but delay J.P and/or J.D

 

5K J.S(1) J.HS J.D J.2K J.K jc J.S(1) J.HS J.D (J.2K J.P J.D) - 142 Damage

Doesn't work if too far from the opponent or if he is too low, last part is char and height specific.

 

The 5K J.S(1) is tricky and requires quick reflexes, 5K J.K J.P J.K Stuff works as well, if you find that easier. (It might also work where the former one can't, but I need to test that more thoroughly)

 

On Counter hit: 

 

AA 5P CH 6HS 214PP - 126 Damage

Any range, doesn't work too close to the ground.

 

AA 5P CH 6HS c.S J.S(1) J.HS J.D J.2K J.K jc J.S(1) J.HS J.D  - 184 Damage.

Training mode combo, only works if you are close and your opponent is high enough, it's not even universal.

 

Also possible with 5K/c.S CH.

 

Edit: Air-to-air hits are fairly similar to those combos (Rising J.P J.K J.P J.D; Falling J.P 5P...)

 

Again feel free to correct everything that is wrong.

 

Also, is anybody planning to make a combo thread? I'll gladly land a hand or make it, if no one else is doing it.

[Snatcher]

I'm currently in the process of working on combos off corner 2HS, Mappa RC and throw RC on the cast. I'm approximately halfway finished now, I'll pass along my findings. Currently I've found that Sol and Venom are surprisingly bothersome for being comboed.

[Loli-Zero]

Stuff

Also, is anybody planning to make a combo thread? I'll gladly land a hand or make it, if no one else is doing it.

You can also do crosswise loops off of CH 5P on most characters depending on how high you hit them.

Looks like CH AA 5P 6HS P-Step/K-Step (depending on the characters weight) CWH 6HS

Then you can end with Pilebunker, CWH (5S) j.K j.D, or under pressure 5S j.S j.HS j.D if you are in the corner.

In regards to the combo thread, I've been compiling stuff hoping to make one this week. But I have been busier then I thought I would be with job stuff so far. Your combo postings have been really awesome. We should maybe collaborate? Maybe one of us can make the thread and template tomorrow and the other can share all their stuff/help double check things. Whatdya think?

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[fogelstrom]

I don't have anything recorded. But I played a bunch on PJS winning stream last night so maybe im floating in the archives as Mori-Zero.

PJS Winning has locked archives for subscribers only unfortunately.

Maybe some other time down the line.

 

*EDIT*

Also regarding AA combos and stuff I've seen Slayer's doing air-to-air CH j.K, land, 6HS, 214P-P. Seems quite important to learn this confirm as well as it's a big chunk of damage and obviously if you're close enough to the corner you can continue with RC.

Edited December 17, 2014 by fogelstrom

[Wirya]

Also regarding AA combos and stuff I've seen Slayer's doing air-to-air j.K, land, 6HS, 214P-P.

This doesn't seem to be possible unless the j.K is a counterhit?

[Uncivilized Elk]

So when you're full screen approaching the opponent with 6K feints consecutively is hilarious. 
It's dumb to do... but ohjesus is it hilarious. 

 

This doesn't seem to be possible unless the j.K is a counterhit?

I can confirm this has to be a CH, unless there's some magical 5 pixel height range where it doesn't or something.
You gotta respond super fast but if you do get a 6H from CH jK it feels so damn good.

 

 

 

BTW I'm loving Slayer (though my oki game is still crap, as well as my FDC-CG game), except in Slayer dittos. For some reason all the Slayer dittos I have end up the scrubbiest noobiest shit.