[Xrd] Slayer Gameplay Discussion

[fogelstrom]

After doing DAA you can FDJC j.H and it's safejump.
That is you just cancel the initial forward dash to get the momentum and you land perfectly on people. The only safejump I ever use. If I think they are going to dp I just do UP wiff BDC P Dandy so I retain UP wiff oki as standard mixup. Else I personally think it's easy to spot when you are doing something else once you've safe jumped 1 shoryu.

[Angry Guy of DE]

So things I learned playing doing some casuals against a May player.

May has a pretty good backdash.

May 5K will beat Slayer 2K so UP > 2K mixup can just straight up not work.

May 6K actually goes over Slayer 5K...that is depressing.

May's arms when summoning a hoop don't seem to have a hitbox(?) DOT went straight through her arms when they were raised up.

[fogelstrom]

1 hour ago, Angry Guy of DE said:

May has a pretty good backdash.

May 5K will beat Slayer 2K so UP > 2K mixup can just straight up not work.

That is quite an understatement. I haven't checked the data but 6P in the corner you can just forget about. Need to do adjust the timing a lot too catch her.

But it has 9F startup... if a player decides they wanna mash 5K between UP and IL on the off-chance you're going to use UP, 2K instead sure let them get blown up by 300dmg each time. I'd love that :)

[Angry Guy of DE]

Going by wiki and gunframe, May's 5K has foot invul frames 4-17 so May really can decide either to 5K, Block, or Backdash. 

Also don't press buttons if you block May's 5H.  That thing's frame advantage puts our stuff to shame.

Btw does 6P stand well against May when she is coming down with j.S, j.HS because 2S didn't feel very trustworthy.

[daymendou]

Yeah May and Elphelt both have the same annoying backdash, which is a pain in the corner. If you delay IL to catch the backdash, they can just jump at the low risk of 50 damage and another knockdown. Instead of UP > 2K, you can do UP > delay c.S or even 2S. If you're really feeling May won't block, you can go for Crosswise.

Don't think I've ever seen a May wakeup 5K though, that's not a good response to any of Slayer's oki options...

6P will beat j.2H very easily but I'm not sure about j.S or j.H. If she does IAD j.SH, you can IB both for what feels like a guaranteed ground throw.

[probe]

Asked Ruu about F Driver. Gave me a nico link and I found another video he's in.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm27233770

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm27233949

[fogelstrom]

7 hours ago, probe said:

Asked Ruu about F Driver. Gave me a nico link and I found another video he's in.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm27233770

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm27233949

Thanks for posting probe.

However that was quite.... unimpressive. I didn't even believe it was him at first. 

[koufdell]

5 hours ago, fogelstrom said:

Thanks for posting probe.

However that was quite.... unimpressive. I didn't even believe it was him at first. 

after seeing hase , everyone is unimpressive

[fogelstrom]

18 minutes ago, koufdell said:

after seeing hase , everyone is unimpressive

With F Driver having +80% winrate and up on rank 26 I only assumed he had some sick play and not dropping combos and confirms left and right wasting meter on BDC YRC over backdash YRC that actually has full invul rather than only strike. At least I got peace of mind that I'm not missing out on beast play.

But I guess the level is so much lower than at Mikado that makes it possible.

[probe]

Yea I was kind of expecting a bit more from him too, especially since he got to bounty before Hase. I wonder how ranking up works because it didn't seem like there were many high dan players in the videos he was in.

[_Sey]

meaty 6K setup after wallsplat on Faust, 6K combos into 2P 2S 2HS etc.

 

on a different note: is there any trick/specific timing to consistently setup meaty IL? I've gotten it to work a few times here and there, but I can't seem to quite grasp if there's an easy way to set it up off both jD and 2D.
I know that after 2D KD it's possible to 214P delay whiff UP > IL and be close enough to combo cS afterward on a lot (all?) of characters, but that's not a meaty IL (e.g IL cS works but not IL 2K).
Is it even possible to setup meaty IL off both 2D and jD KD on every character?

tbh I'm actually a bit clueless about how to get the most out of 2D/jD KD, like I've seen people talk a few times about UP whiff oki but I'm not sure what that leads to... meaty 2K/IL? I'm guessing it likely does not lead to meaty ground crossup.

[fogelstrom]

45 minutes ago, _Sey said:

tbh I'm actually a bit clueless about how to get the most out of 2D/jD KD, like I've seen people talk a few times about UP whiff oki but I'm not sure what that leads to... meaty 2K/IL? I'm guessing it likely does not lead to meaty ground crossup.

UP wiff after 2D/j.D sets up everything you will ever need (imo).

UP wiff -> IL = beats throws. I always use IL to check and condition people a lot in the start. After they just stand and block the rest of the game opens up.

UP wiff -> 2K, c.S, 2D
UP wiff -> 2K, c.S, j.D, DHD... works on SO, KY, LE, RA, BE, ZA, PO
UP wiff -> 2K, c.S, f.S, 5K, 236K, RRC, kCWH, <insert optimized character specific combo by Fogelstrom page earlier>
UP wiff -> dash through c.S/throw
UP wiff -> 6P versus abare and some specific supers like Tyrant Rave, Ultimate Whiner, DoT and more.
UP wiff -> BDC Dandy
UP wiff -> BD/block to bait reversals

[daymendou]

Yeah short dash c.S can be jumped out of by a few characters. I was thinking of making an oki thread, but I'll save that for winter break. I'll definitely study what Hase goes for after j.D vs. after 2D.

Meaty 6K/2D oki does have a few advantages over UP oki. First, some frame data:

P Dandy - 30F recovery, 15F fastest followup

Under Pressure - 5/2/12 or 20F fastest startup, fastest cancel to IL on frame 8 (after 1st recovery frame), 

It's Late - 14/6/10 or about 36F fastest startup, +3 on normal block and -1 on IB

2K - 6/2/8 or about 39F fastest startup after UP whiff, +4 on normal block and +1 on IB

6K - 20/5/9, meaty combo requires 25F startup on standing and 24/25F on crouching, meaty is +3/4 on normal block and +0/1 on IB

2D - 9/21/9, meaty combo requires ~27-30F startup (maybe different by weight class?), meaty is +6-9 on normal block and +2-5 on IB

 

It's Late has the best CH damage but is less likely to be challenged. Since the CH confirm gives much more damage than the non-CH confirm you can't afford to autopilot the normal hit confirm either. It's hard to visually confirm whether it hits meaty, which makes it harder to confirm into knockdown via 2K 2D. The non-meaty crouching confirm can be unstable, for example failing if IL hits meaty or from too far away, and has more variants than 6K confirms. However, its other strong points are the ability to RRC into K Dandy or Dust on normal hit for good damage and the 20 RISC on block while 6K only adds 10.

6K is challenged more often, usually by Throw OS on wakeup or after block (Sol 5K, Elphelt c.S, and various 6Ps stand out as problems). Its meterless damage is much higher than IL in the corner with 2PSH confirms, especially for characters that only allow IL cS 2D or Faust, and the midscreen c.S f.S 5K 2D crouching confirm is universal, but IL has better damage with RRC. The CH confirm is the same as the non-CH confirm as well. Lastly, there's almost never a situation where you get f.S instead of c.S after 6K, but this can occur with meaty IL. Of course its biggest weakness is that it requires a 1-2F oki timing, but this also makes it harder for the opponent to confirm that you missed the timing and punish. Because meaty 6K hits on later active frames, it generally recovers earlier than IL, which makes it harder to backdash > Throw.

2K is obviously much weaker than 2D (unless you can confirm CH 2K > 6P in corner) and harder to hit meaty. 2D is more vulnerable to reversal Throw but the higher number of active frames forces the opponent to hit the reversal window everytime or eat 200 damage. IIRC 2K c.S turns into f.S if they FD 2K while there's no downside if they FD 2D.

The setup for meaty 6K/2D can be several things while the setup for IL/2K has to be P Dandy UP. While UP whiff is flexible, it's harder to make small spacing adjustments compared to 6K/2D. UP oki is also much slower than 6K/2D, which is particularly important if you're going for 6P or 6H or IAD. The 4 high/low options, 6K, 2D, IL, and 2K, are pretty vulnerable to backdashes but IL definitely has the best reward out of the 4 (meterless knockdown).

Basically, you are choosing whether you want a stronger Low or a stronger High and go from there. I find that once you are able to use both UP and 6K/2D, the opponent has a much harder time reacting to UP.

[probe]

Regarding what Hase goes for after 2D or j.D knockdown, I think the thing that stands out most to me is him going for cross-up long dash c.S or same side normal dash c.S. after j.D. I haven't really tested it out myself, but it seems to work out pretty well for him. I find people will react well to double cross-up cl.S if they've played the Slayer matchup enough so I'll probably give this stuff a shot in the near future.

[_Sey]

On 11/12/2015, 3:12:24, fogelstrom said:

With F Driver having +80% winrate and up on rank 26 I only assumed he had some sick play and not dropping combos and confirms left and right wasting meter on BDC YRC over backdash YRC that actually has full invul rather than only strike. At least I got peace of mind that I'm not missing out on beast play.

But I guess the level is so much lower than at Mikado that makes it possible.

There are a few vids of him playing 1.1 at Mikado, actually!

http://www.keeponrock.in/?character1=sly&player1=F
He's still no Hase though, he's obviously not bad but he plays a very patient/slow game, kinda like En/Tanabata... and quite different from Hase/Taka.

[Melo]

On November 13, 2015 at 11:24:11 PM, probe said:

Regarding what Hase goes for after 2D or j.D knockdown, I think the thing that stands out most to me is him going for cross-up long dash c.S or same side normal dash c.S. after j.D. I haven't really tested it out myself, but it seems to work out pretty well for him. I find people will react well to double cross-up cl.S if they've played the Slayer matchup enough so I'll probably give this stuff a shot in the near future.

A lot of times he steps back to setup up meaty 2D before dashing through. he also tends to do BDC p dandy for his oki set-ups. I didnt understand the need to BDC for UP whiff at first but it adds a lot of ambiguity to what he's going to do, opening up the opponent to dash through mix-ups on top of everything else.

On things that Hase does, he uses a lot of BDC p mappa in the neutral. I started implementing it into my game and it's very very good. It's the closest thing SL has to projectile YRC to steal back momentum or at least reset to neutral. 

 

Edited November 20, 2015 by Melo

[Zerosleep]

Hey guys relatively new player here with a few questions.. should characters be able to completely backdash out of up->2k oki or am I just messing it up? This was specifically against a May player if that makes any difference. She was getting out clean then hitting my recovery with her own 2k?

The other question I have is there any sort of option select (a la sf4) against backdash? It doesn't seem that way but I don't honestly know. Thanks in advance.

 

Also after posting I realize the May backdash question was answered a few posts above.. just looking for an answer about the backdash os.

[daymendou]

I don't believe there's a backdash OS if you're going for High/Low mixup otherwise Slayer would be a lot easier to play. 2K is especially easy to wakeup backdash since it only has 2 active frames. If you're willing to spend 50%, you can do UP > 2D RRC for about 150 on hit (convert into c.S f.S > j.SHD) or another UP mixup on block.

If you really feel you need an OS, maybe try 2K~4412367P+H? For BDC Mappa or forward jump on whiff to beat 2K/Throw or cancel into 6P/Mappa on hit/block

[fogelstrom]

If people backdashing is eating you up use 6P in corner (but vs May it's tricky) and for bidscreen use UP wiff, froward dash crossup. You hit some people on their airborne frames so you get full air combo. Obivously you can't spam this since it's vulnerable to getting thrown instead but yeah. That's Slayer. High risk high reward. Also UP delay IL catch people in their backdashes but then you get opened up for abare. Gotta scare and condition people and when you got the room to breathe as Slayer you are pretty free to do whatever you want

[Zerosleep]

13 hours ago, daymendou said:

I don't believe there's a backdash OS if you're going for High/Low mixup otherwise Slayer would be a lot easier to play. 2K is especially easy to wakeup backdash since it only has 2 active frames. If you're willing to spend 50%, you can do UP > 2D RRC for about 150 on hit (convert into c.S f.S > j.SHD) or another UP mixup on block.

If you really feel you need an OS, maybe try 2K~4412367P+H? For BDC Mappa or forward jump on whiff to beat 2K/Throw or cancel into 6P/Mappa on hit/block

OK gotcha. Like I said I'm still relatively new coming from an sf background so the more reason able option for this sounds like what Fogelstrom said with the 6p. I don't think the backdash is THAT big of an issue in the matches i've played but one specific long set it was killing me and I was just trying to read it with 6k. 6p would seem like a much better option but I didn't even think of that.

 

One of the issues I'm having as I'm learning more about the game is its very tough to condition players online. The only offline scene here is a decent size group of sf players but nobody likes or wants to learn gg. I feel like a large part of slayers game is based on them respecting your buttons and I feel like I have a hard time getting to that point in a match. Am I off base here? I still have a lot to learn so it may just be me.

[daymendou]

If you're not getting consistent confirms, it's pretty difficult to make players online respect you. Your big counterhit moves should be doing at least 150 damage with knockdown, smaller counterhits should give maybe 75 damage and the occasional knockdown.

The other problem I think a lot of Slayers have is relying too much on high reward moves like 6H, dash c.S, or Dandy Step, which are easy to disrespect. I feel a lot stronger when I slow down and rely more on 5K Mappa or Throws. Try to experiment with all of Slayer's normals.

The important thing is to always assert yourself; your opponent needs to be afraid to trade with you and unsure of their defensive options. If players punish your oki or blockstring once, you have to be willing to try again.

[_Sey]

Actually, I randomly found out that you can OS 2K~2S/cS (just like Yun uhuh), I couldn't get 2S to hit may or sol corner backdash though.
I got the idea to test that out because I saw Hase callout a corner backdash with 2S in one of his recent vids... maybe it could work vs. longer backdashes like Sin's? w/e, I'll play around with it after midterms, just by looking at frame data it looks like it likely won't work on anyone except Bedman/Sin though, GG backdashes are overall too fast to be able to punish them after whiffing something.

I wish 5HS could still ground bounce airborne opponents, that looked like a pretty nice way to call out backdashes in older games

[fogelstrom]

15 hours ago, Zerosleep said:

One of the issues I'm having as I'm learning more about the game is its very tough to condition players online. The only offline scene here is a decent size group of sf players but nobody likes or wants to learn gg. I feel like a large part of slayers game is based on them respecting your buttons and I feel like I have a hard time getting to that point in a match. Am I off base here? I still have a lot to learn so it may just be me.

Poeple know they need to respect Slayer but a lot of people can gauge if they need to respect you. Unless you are bustin' out the heavy stuffs all the time people are going to keep abare/disrespecting you.

For situations like these my approach is UP wiff IL oki almost all the god damn time. Just do it meaty and it doesn't even matter if they IB it you still get a free frame trap.
Don't go for fancy stuff. Stick to the basics to deal with basic people. Know your frames. If you get c.S, f.S och block you are +6 on normal block. What you do after f.S can break people easily.
2H -> kills all low mash,
6P -> beats like half the games moves :D
5H excellent frame trap and you can buffer to P Dandy PB and react on normal/CH hit and RRC if you got the meter in the corner or you can 5H IAD
2K/5K excellent faster frame trap. Note that frame perfect f.S, 2K is an actual true blockstring. IAD options available here as well.
whatevs into Mappa. This is a tricky situation that you really have to gauge your opponent. Start of by doing c.S, f.S unless they FD since you will get f.S and that sucks with 13F startup. If you are unable to confirm this go with 2K instead. If you are getting CH'd find out the startup of their move and you'll know if you are slow pressing c.S after Mappa or if they will beat you. You also got BDC Dandy and BDC Mappa after Mappa on hit/block as well as BDCJ IAD.

There's just a plethora of things and Slayer can basically cover any situation at any given time it just comes down to experience and your guessing game/yomi.

[Martikol]

I've been noticing lately that a lot of slayers today likes to frame trap c.S after a mappa w/c I don't usually see a while ago.

speaking of mappa, I've been looking at the frame data on all versions. And I'm wondering why they never put the advantage on hit of mappa.

[_Sey]

7 hours ago, Martikol said:

I've been noticing lately that a lot of slayers today likes to frame trap c.S after a mappa w/c I don't usually see a while ago.

speaking of mappa, I've been looking at the frame data on all versions. And I'm wondering why they never put the advantage on hit of mappa.

just look at the attack level table on the wiki.
Rule of thumb is: add the difference between hitstun and blockstun of that particular level to the "on block" frame advantage and you'll have the "on hit" frame advantage of that move (+/- can vary depending if you hit meaty with the move/distance between you and the opponent, e.g: 6H can be + on block on "far" crouching opponent, similar situation with 2D).
On hit K mappa is -1, P mappa is 0.
 

Pressing buttons after K mappa works because of the situation you end up in, even if you are -1 you can, for example, BDC Bite to grab any opponent trying to mash a 2K/2P.
Other than BDC bite and cS some other popular options are 6P and dash cS to catch backdashes, 6H OS cS should cover a lot of options too.