[Xrd] Slayer Gameplay Discussion

[lofo]

lol no thanks. i'm done with you

[IreulTheSlayer]

7 minutes ago, lofo said:

lol no thanks. i'm done with you

Why does it always happen when you bring actual videos into discussion?

[lofo]

52 minutes ago, IreulTheSlayer said:

Why does it always happen when you bring actual videos into discussion?

actually the problem was you discounted other parts of the video in advance, a dishonest technique known as "poisoning the well," as well as the fact that you ignored my previous post that already explained exactly how to beat 6H. these tell me you're not actually open to changing your mind, so it's not worth my time to reason with you.

[IreulTheSlayer]

21 minutes ago, lofo said:

actually the problem was you discounted other parts of the video in advance, a dishonest technique known as "poisoning the well," as well as the fact that you ignored my previous post that already explained exactly how to beat 6H. these tell me you're not actually open to changing your mind, so it's not worth my time to reason with you.

I have gathered solid evidence that it's impossible to "beat" it. 

Being mr. Perfect, you can avoid it, just to get it again.

It may be possible in your little world, but bringing it outside would probably indeed be ineffective.

You poisoned the well in advance here too, saying that not changing your mind for any reason at all would be downgraded to "closed mind". Also note that I haven't completely poisoned it, saying that there are rounds that are played seriously, and specified them, which you ignored in turn. Accusing me of dishonest technique after all that? Really?

While it's possible to change my mind on anything, arguing over this issue is like saying sun doesn't rise on the east because magnetic east may shift around. Dancing around definitions would not bulge the actual issue of Slayer being poor character.

Take this Elphelt which managed to beat me by staying just outside guard range and spamming her punch with shotgun. It's out of range for blitz shield, and all normal and supers I tried to extend to reach her were getting counterhit. If I use dot, it'll probably clash, but you'll never get tension for that sitting in a corner. That is just another episode of "character with a wide arsenal of counterhitting himself"...

[daymendou]

You can beat 6H by using FD on the first hit then IB on the second hit. This is all I'm going to say, you can figure out the rest.

[IreulTheSlayer]

5 hours ago, daymendou said:

You can beat 6H by using FD on the first hit then IB on the second hit. This is all I'm going to say, you can figure out the rest.

So, you propose being triple mister Perfect, perfectly chaining guards and perfectly linking guard with whatever attack you had in mind, just to do something about 6HS scrub?

[Zerosleep]

To revive a conversation from a few pages back, UP>6p corner oki is there any usability outside of reading/catching backdash? Still trying to work my way up from the bottom rung of the ladder.

I recall seeing hase doing it pretty frequently in match videos bit I was just watching and not analyzing so I don't recall if it was match up specific or not

[River]

Can mods ban Ireul please? 
He is disgrace for russian community. 

[fogelstrom]

3 hours ago, Zerosleep said:

To revive a conversation from a few pages back, UP>6p corner oki is there any usability outside of reading/catching backdash? Still trying to work my way up from the bottom rung of the ladder.

I recall seeing hase doing it pretty frequently in match videos bit I was just watching and not analyzing so I don't recall if it was match up specific or not

6P beats a lot of supers and abare that isn't low once the above knees invul set in wich is always when doing it to catch backdash. Main use however is to catch people backdashing in the corner and blow them up with huge dmgz for trying to backdash IL

[daymendou]

You space the 6P to beat wakeup Throw OS, which people love to use against UP > 2K or UP > delayed IL.

Just be aware that characters with faster wakeup can poke out with 2K or some other fast low.

[mAc Chaos]

IreulTheSlayer, you've been going overboard with abusive and incendiary posting. Take a break for a week and reel it in.

[probe]

On 12/29/2015 at 5:09 PM, daymendou said:

You space the 6P to beat wakeup Throw OS, which people love to use against UP > 2K or UP > delayed IL.

Just be aware that characters with faster wakeup can poke out with 2K or some other fast low.

 How do you normally space it? Just walking backwards a little or off certain knockdowns that leave you farther away from your opponent? Like Zerosleep said, I see Hase go for it often and not get thrown, though that might just be people respecting his oki in general.

[daymendou]

Walk back a little off 2D/j.D or space your forward movement after Pilebunker. It does depend on their throw range though. IMO it's really good off j.D when the camera has to move down and they can't immediately see the ground.

If you have a long knockdown, you can do Long Dash to bait Throw OS and 6P their f.S (for characters that use 6S+H anyway)

It might be my imagination but I think sometimes Throwing with only H has more range than Throw OS.

[fogelstrom]

3 hours ago, probe said:

 How do you normally space it? Just walking backwards a little or off certain knockdowns that leave you farther away from your opponent? Like Zerosleep said, I see Hase go for it often and not get thrown, though that might just be people respecting his oki in general.

If you use UP wiff, IL on oki 90% of the time eventually people will have to respect you even in their face. Like I wrote earlier people most often use backdash against me in the corner against IL so they can punish me on the recovery. But most people know the risk of trying to throw IL so you get away with 6P. Obviously you will get thrown but with enough conditioning you can almost stop worrying about getting thrown after UP wiff

[daymendou]

Been trying a few counters for the past month against Instant Block punishes on c.S > f.S

c.S > 6P gatling is really strong. Spaced correctly, it will CH most whiffed Throws and be + on block. The window to poke out without losing to 6P is really small. In the corner, it will catch almost every backdash and beat backdash YRC since there is a 7 frame gap before 6P finishes startup and backdash invuln will run out by then. It does get caught by Blitz but you can stop that with c.S > P Dandy or 6P YRC.

Against DPs, low profile, or upper body invul, you have c.S > P Mappa, which is a tight string. P Mappa will still lose if their punish is frame perfect but it's definitely worth trying if they reversal your f.S everytime.

Oddly enough, c.S > nothing is also pretty strong since it seems people try to react to f.S startup. You are -7 so you can immediately go for Throw or wait for a backdash/DP.

I still don't know what to do about Potemkin but it doesn't seem like he can backdash Pot Buster after c.S > (IB Backdash) P Mappa > c.S

[fogelstrom]

7 hours ago, daymendou said:

Been trying a few counters for the past month against Instant Block punishes on c.S > f.S

c.S > 6P gatling is really strong. Spaced correctly, it will CH most whiffed Throws and be + on block. The window to poke out without losing to 6P is really small. In the corner, it will catch almost every backdash and beat backdash YRC since there is a 7 frame gap before 6P finishes startup and backdash invuln will run out by then. It does get caught by Blitz but you can stop that with c.S > P Dandy or 6P YRC.

Against DPs, low profile, or upper body invul, you have c.S > P Mappa, which is a tight string. P Mappa will still lose if their punish is frame perfect but it's definitely worth trying if they reversal your f.S everytime.

Oddly enough, c.S > nothing is also pretty strong since it seems people try to react to f.S startup. You are -7 so you can immediately go for Throw or wait for a backdash/DP.

I still don't know what to do about Potemkin but it doesn't seem like he can backdash Pot Buster after c.S > (IB Backdash) P Mappa > c.S

Hmm... I'm not having too much trouble with this yet but that's online and mostly intermediate level does. The spacing thing I can see work but if you are close you'd always get thrown on c.S IB since you are -3 in their face?

Same goes for buster but never gonna space that out. Doing a c.S on block vs FAB is just asking to get busted. You are better of spamming 5P in his face if you are ever there.

[daymendou]

Collected winrates from Hase, En, and Tanabata. I don't think the data should be used to determine matchups but it's interesting to look at.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eU2UuWTyhpLNtBEJWDHnFe6ye7iYWdf5lafhH-6fZuk/edit?usp=sharing

Notes:

• Hase often plays outside of Mikado while En and Tanabata are pretty exclusive to Mikado. I think the differences in their Sol winrates says a lot (Mocchi/Mugen compared to other Sols...).
• If you look at the Sign 1.0+1.1 winrates (not included), they are pretty similar. Obviously, a lot of players switched characters, improved, or started playing less so there are a few notable shifts (Millia, May, Sin).
• Tanabata's matchup opinions don't really agree with the winrates so playerbase must have a strong influence. For example, look at Zato, Chipp, Axl, and Elphelt.

Disadvantage: Zato, Johnny, Elphelt, Faust, Bedman, Axl, Ky, Sin, Venom, I-No, Jack-O

Slight Disadvantage: Leo, Potemkin, May, Chipp, Millia

Even: Sol, Ramlethal

Advantage: Jam

• A few matchups have really low game counts, some barely reaching 20.

 

 

[Zerosleep]

Interesting stuff, the Faust win rates have a very similar trend to Sol in regards to Hase vs en and tana, wonder if that's from playing outside of Mikado (nage?) As well

[daymendou]

Working on the hitboxes: https://imgur.com/a/kKPcR

Also put link in the Evernote

I would appreciate if anyone has a solution to capture cS without overlapping hitboxes or moving the camera

[RoBoBOBR]

Daymendou - pick Zato as opponent, record Break the Law, stand near puddle, get cS with no enemy on screen (almost).

[fogelstrom]

Thanks for your work daymendou. Greatly appreciated. I'm way to lazy for this

[daymendou]

Finished up to 2H now. Takes me about 20-30 seconds of labor per frame, depending on how much the boxes change.

Break the Law worked nicely for cS. Air normals might be annoying if the camera moves too much. I think for air normals I have Zato fly and have Slayer airdash past him. I don't want to use YRC since the slowdown complicates the frame count.

Hopefully the mod will be updated to include throws so we can view Bite. We also need projectiles working to view Helter Skelter and SDD tail.

[daymendou]

Added jP, jK, jS, jH, and jD

I put Faust dummy in the corner and recorded jump/superjump into back airdash. This prevented the majority of camera movement. Unfortunately, the hitbox mod has issues with fast movement, so many of the recovery hurtboxes are probably lower than shown. I will definitely redo these if there's a better solution.

 

As for gameplay, I have started experimenting with 6K oki when I'm about 1/3-1/2 screen away after knockdown (Footloose 1 hit, 6H or IL air hit, sometimes Pilebunker or SDD). It feels like characters with average or slower faceup wakeup allow walk/dash > meaty 6K. It also seems pretty good if you can do spaced 6K > Bite to beat IB Throw OS consistently.

Once people start to respect the spaced 6K, you can catch jump with meaty 6H and catch longer backdashes with K Mappa or Long Dash Bite. If they have a reversal, you can do 6[K] > 6P/block. If you set up the spacing such that you need to 6K > FDC Bite, you can do 6K > FDC P/K Pile instead to beat mashing and some reversals. If they rely too much on backdash, you can go for Long Dash crossup.

So far, it seems pretty helpful for avoiding backdash > Throw in corner and forcing people to block oki. You might be able to get spaced UP oki from the same knockdowns, though you would probably be unable to do 2K > 2PSH or 2K > cS.

[drunkards_walk]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum so I just wanted to introduce myself to the Slayer community (apologies that this is off topic, I wasn't sure where else to post). 

[fogelstrom]

The social thread would have been more correct but I don't think any of the ~5 guys here care that much  Always nice with having additional players theoryfighting with.