[FB] Fair Stages

[brett_]

Due to some recent discussion, I've been discussing potential tournament rulesets involving stages with others. Specifically, someone brought up the MLG Starcraft map veto-system, which involves starting from a pool of 7 maps.

I'm just curious - what non-Side 7 maps do you consider the most neutral / balanced?

[HDKirin]

The first one that comes to mind is the really open G Gundam stage with a few pillars and some text actually on the map. I don't know exactly what it's called, but we've played a handful of matches there together.

[Deculture]

Brussels and Orb Mass Driver come to mind.

[Sharakonta]

I tend to go with The G Gundam one with the Gundam heads

Sent from the NOL Intelligence Department.

[AirMaster]

I find that a lot of maps are now really fair in this game. The new G Gundam stage HDKirin mentionned comes to mind. One of the new space stages is really good too.

I'll have to check more of them later, but those two are the ones I can name off top of my head on the bus.

[LatiosG]

Yeah, I can't name any but there are some decent stages that are fair. The G gundam stage with the large arena comes to mind.

[Genoce]

Industrial 7 is good now that it doesn't have that stupidly elevated ledge on one of the sides.

[Demicol]

I wish there was a guide/list with images along with their names. I tried running the Japanese wiki trough google translate, and while the text translates pretty well sometimes its hard to tell by just the description what the stage is.

[yaeca]

Africa Tower (00) is okay but I think some people dislike it.

マニューピチ (Turn A) seems okay.

ロンデニオン (Char's CA) seems okay.

New Type Labratory (Gundam X) seems okay.

廃棄コロニー (地球周辺) (Original map) is pretty open. Maybe too open? I actually don't like maps like this and the Lantau Island stage ("the one with the text) but that's just me I think.

I could go on, but maybe it's easier to name maps I think are bad:

Side 6 I hate

Both the Wing stage an the EW stages I hate

Frontier 1 (F91) I hate because it seems to have a bad framerate inherent in the map. Hate it regardless!!

Colony Laser (Z) is awful.

┐(´ー｀)┌

[Mightfo]

I really like the Unicorn near-torrington-base stage, the one with the road in the middle.

I like africa tower, but Zaku2 grenades have some problems with it, and I can see it being considered unfair, but it is better than a lot of stages.

I really like that one space stage with the 4 large destructible(but lots of HP) buildings, but they interfere with high-angle artillery shots of mechs like EZ8 and Tank a lot. Otherwise, that one seems fair to me. Similar concern with the hong kong stage.

I'm enjoy the Char's counterattack stage and the Gundam Seed Destiny Moon stage, but i understand why some people hate those two with the elevation variance, they fuck with several mechs im sure. Not quite fair.

I enjoy newtype labratory like Yaeca, but it isnt really fair because the massive buildings change neutral a lot.(They make getting in much quicker, i suppose..) I also really like the Ao Bao A Qu stage, but it is pretty silly for similar reasons even though it is a very cool stage.

I kind of hate the SEED desert factory map, but I'm not sure why. If someone else could articulate problems about it, that would be nice.

So, I suppose the best are side 7, near-torrington, g-gundam stage, brussels, heliopolis, the 4-buildings space stage, hong kong, africa tower.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Mightfo

[brett_]

After looking at all the stages, here are my preliminary thoughts:

The stages I think are QUITE good:

Size 7

Troya Station

Torington Base

Mass Driver

Four that I think are also very good but have some quirks that may or may not be an issue:

Brussel

Moon Moon

Newtype Lab

Industrial 7

My main criterion are 1) Does the map have enough flat open space to encourage fundemental play and 2) Is the map big enough

As such, I generally leaned away from maps like Africa Tower and Heleopolis, which I am personally okay with, but the flow of gameplay ends up leaning towards ducking around towers and close-quarters combat due to a lack of centralized open area. For the same reason, while I like Frontier 1 a lot too, the flat space is off towards the sides which warps the gameflow a bit.

Edited February 14, 2014 by brett_

[yaeca]

http://imgur.com/a/ZABz6

Made this real quick - gallery of the maps in order they appear in the stage select menu (minus the first training stage thing which isn't selectable online). Numbered them so you can reference them more easily, but the image title is Map Name (Series/source). Sorry for the bad images but should give you enough of an idea of the stage.

I also included #21 ア・バオア・クー宙域 but I'm not sure if that's playable online. At least if it is, I've never played it out of like 2k matches or whatever.

[AirMaster]

The new space stage I mentionned was stage 22 in yaeca's list.

[Mightfo]

http://imgur.com/a/ZABz6

thank you VERY MUCH!

speaking of resources like that, someone needs to update https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An9IcTip4EjwdGV5b3RtSy1IZ0VQY0lSLW1GdTZlMVE#gid=0 for full boost

[yaeca]

From the other thread, this is better lol.

http://gundam-vs.jp/extreme/acfb/game/stage.html

Has an overhead view for all stages except training stage and both Extreme stages.

[Setsuna Yuki]

I think the following stages are good :

- Side 7

- Brussels

- Angel Halo

- Industrial 7

- Heliopolis

- Troya Station

- Space Colony

- Mass Driver

- Africa Tower

- New Hong Kong

- Torrington

- Sanc Kingdom

- Lan Tao

- A Baoa Qu

[brett_]

After playing some of the other stages for a bit:

Troya Station - really great, loved playing on it. the uneven floor makes it a bit easy to duck some brs in the center, but its high enough that it's not too dominant, imo.

Torington Airport - some people commented on it feeling a bit small. I'm still okay with this stage but it's not super amazing.

Mass Driver - feels pretty great now, definitely doesn't feel as small as last I recalled (vanilla)

Brussel - definitely feels small. super easy to control the center and push people towards the walls.

Industrial 7 - I felt pretty okay with this

Edit: After thinking a bit, I think I want to give Africa Tower a chance again. in my head it felt possible too crampt for most people, but looking at it top down there's definitely way more space than most of the other cityscape + buildings maps.

The stages I think I'd definitely put in the pool are:

Side 7

Troya Base

Mass Driver

Industrial 7

Africa Tower

which leaves 2 more to make it seven. Currently considering for the last two slots:

Torrington

Africa Desert

Heliopolis

New Hong Kong

Newtype Lab

Moon Moon

REBIRTH

They all have at least one quirk that may be bothersome, but picking the best 2 should still give us a strong pool of 7.

Or we could just take the 5 i listed and have each team veto one.

Edited February 14, 2014 by brett_

[Setsuna Yuki]

If I had to choose 2 of the remainings, it'd be between Torrington, Heliopolis and New Hong Kong. All three of them can't be selected ? :P

[Tari]

But... but I like Side 7!

Anyway, you want opinions, so here they are. I personally think Side 7 is more than good enough for everything, but eh.

Out of your list, these are the ones I think are pretty good:

- Side 7

- Troya Base

- Mass Driver - I want to say this map is bigger than its vanilla counterpart, but I'm too lazy to check.

- Industrial 7 - Seems like a similar size to Mass Driver, not too many destructible buildings, relatively level surface, etc.

- Torrington - couple buildings, but they're all destructible. Terrain is conducive to ground type movement.

These have issues (these are listed in order of preference):

- Newtype Lab - structure height and size might obstruct certain suits (Ez-8), but the terrain itself is great. Ground types will be fine here, once the buildings go down.

- New Hong Kong - same problems as Newtype Lab

- Heliopolis - same problems as Newtype Lab. In addition, the arbitrarily indestructible building seems strange and annoying.

- Africa Tower - while it's mostly okay, there are a lot of structures that block movement in the upper area until they're destroyed, and, more importantly, the raised ledge on one side will mess with ground type movement (ie: brake cancelling).

- Africa Desert - the destructible building in the middle is hilarious and problematic in terms of height. I don't mind playing casuals on it, but I'd prefer to avoid it for real matches. One the building in the middle goes away, it has similar issues as Africa Tower, though in an arguably more problematic location.

- Moon Moon - similar issues as the two Africa maps, though with less destructibility and more of an sheer height change on the side of the map

And this one is a no:

- REBIRTH - too many elevations

[Mightfo]

How do you feel about the new g gundam stage, brett? Too small?

Also, thanks for moving this discussion.

[altairdooder]

Taking all of the different types of movement units use into account, here's a list of the most eligible candidates for being in the pool in my opinion (That aren't based Side 7, that's obviously a headline stage): Heliopolis, Mass Driver, Wrecked Colony (That EXVS original stage, I think that's what it's called), Lantau Island, Frontier 1, Torrington, Neo Hong Kong, Newtype Research Lab, A Baoa Qu, and Troya Base. These are maps where the only obstacles for ground units are buildings that can either be destroyed or simply moved around easily enough, and whose topography is exploitable enough by anyone. The only flaw with several of these is size and building concentration.

And here's my ideal pool out of that list of stages: Side 7, Heliopolis, Mass Driver, Wrecked Colony (What is this damn place called anyway), Lantau Island, Troya Base, and Newtype Research Lab (The black sheep of this list, but if we've really gotta have 7 I'll take this over what's left any day). With a selection like this there should be no bitching from someone that "hit a retaining wall and couldn't move" or "got trapped in one of those stupid bowls in the center", and building placement/density doesn't seem like crippling problem (You could argue Newtype Lab has this problem, but big buildings are also big targets).

[brett_]

Regarding Lantau Island (the G Gundam stage) - many people have complained to me it feels small.

Building density is as big of an issue as incompatibility for ground types, imo. The way you play the game on Wrecked / Abandoned / etc Colony (or whatever we're calling it), is really different from the way you play the game on Side 7. If you just visualize the way two 3K fronts interact and engage on that stage compared to Side 7, it should be pretty clear.

Like Tari said, I don't mind playing casuals on any of the maps we mentioned - but my goal is to try and determine the 7 most balanced maps, so there are many I feel fulfill the "doesn't make people mad" requirement, but still come off inbalanced to me.

A pretty common fork in the road seems to be New Hong Kong vs Africa Tower, which is basically an argument of more open space VS uneven terrain trade-off.

Africa Tower

New Hong Kong

If you look at it from top down, Africa Tower has more central open space than New Hong Kong, but it has that ledge that can cause problems. Definitely can see it going either way here.

OR we could just take both of them and ditch Newtype and Heliopolis : PPPP

There are definitely people who seem to like Heliopolis, and those who don't.

[Tari]

I think trying to force a 7 map pool might not really be necessary, if we can't decide on the final two maps (or if two maps are likely to be voted off the majority of the time anyway).

I still stand by Side 7, fwiw. :P But the other 4 maps I mentioned are fine by me, at least.

[brett_]

After some GameCenter local play today:

1) Everyone, including me, hated New Hong Kong. It's really awful, because of the sheer height of the buildings, which will block off even decently high boost hops.

2) Played more Newtype Lab - it feels OKAY but the tall tower building is kinda annoying.

3) Heliopolis starts off pretty meh until the two center buildings get destroyed

4) Moon Moon feels too small, and a lot of situations lead to heavily favoring utilizing the temple structure. I also think odd situations occur due to the roundness of the stonehenge structure. Primarily the Temple though. Lots of situations where it becomes really easy to abuse it, depending on the suit, combined with the small map size.

Overall. my top 5 are still:

Side 7

Troya Station

Mass Driver

Industrial 7

Torrington

Everything else thus far has definitely felt clearly inferior. Either due to size, buildings, or spacial distribution, etc. I feel like maybe we should just go from those 5 and ban 1 each, since the other 2 we put in will probably just get banned anyways ._.

Edited February 15, 2014 by brett_

[Tari]

Agreed on everything but Africa Tower, as I'd rather put Torington in. I'd probably take Africa Tower or Africa Desert over pretty much any of the other maps we tried, though.