Damage scaling is weird/ Practical combos?

[BagelFarmer]

This is a ranty so my main question is below.

 

Damage scaling from what i understand from other games

Ok damage scaling in some of these anime fighters is just crazy. Coming from someone who plays 3d fighters and capcom fighters the system of proration is just weird. I understand what its trying to do but i feel like its just goes overboard and tries to do to much and ends up not working. In games like dead or alive and Soul calibur and most 3d fighters damage scaling is there but its very slight and no one really thinks about it cause for the most part combos in the game are preset and combos are short. I usually just go by how much the combo does in damage as opposed to each individual move. In games like street fighter and other capcom fighters damage scaling is simple. This is the perfect example http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/may/09/how-combo-and-damage-scaling-works-street-fighter-iv/ . Look how simple the damage scaling is. Basically if you do more attacks the damage scaling increases. But for the most part hit confirming into specials and moves does more damage then just doing the move. In street fighter if i link a crouching light punch , crouching light kick, and crouching medium punch into a special it does like 230 ish damage or something but if i just did the special move it would have did like 180 or something. To me this makes sense. I sat in training learning the time for the links and now i can safely hit confirm into that special making it safe and doing more damage verses my cousin who just throws out random special. But in games like Persona 4 Arena and Blaz Blue its the opposite.

 

Damage scaling from what i understand in Persona,blaz blue..etc.

I understand what their trying to do but i feel like it doesn't work. From what i gathered their combo system is high risk high reward. You hit confirm into  comboes and do fast light attacks in the begging and your damage is reduced greatly cause their was "low risk". But if your like my cousin just throwing out random supers you do good damage cause its "high risk". Which sounds good in theory but i feel like the the difference between high risk and low risk is to big and this is mainly because of the crazy proration system. From what i understand each move adds its own amount of damage scaling by adding a certain number of poration points. Which is pretty crazy to me cause some of the moves add like 20 30 or even 40 percent damage scaling and that's just one attack. Once you start combing the damage scaling easily reaches like 40 50 60 percent . But unlike street fighter its a high combo game so even then it makes sense i guess. But then each character has a combo rate which scales down the damage so not only is the damage scaling like 50 % from the combo but also its already reduced by like 60% from the combo rate. At that point every hit is doing like 200 or 300 damage if even that much which is the only time supers are really useful cause they have minimum damage thing so its has to do at least some type of damage. Other wise most of the time they do pathetic damage that i can get from an easy meter-less combo that's easy to get off. Which to me goes against their whole high risk  thing. If i throw out a super randomly in street fighter or even soul calibur 5 it does crazy damage cause everyone usually just blocks it and sees it coming. But if i throw out a super in Persona 4 Arena i do like 2.3 to 2.5 ish damage but i could easily do this amount by doing a simple combo.

 

Just use high damage moves?

Some characters regular moves do like 1k+ damage easily, i would of thought wasting half a meter on a easily blockable move would have been a "high risk" and did like mad damage or something. At times i feel like the system is flawed. Lets say i'm playing naoto and i'm fighting yu in Persona 4. This yu likes to do his overhead a lot so I stand block but he does his sliding low persona attack and it does like 900 damage which is like %10+  of my max hp. Then he comboes it into super and gets like 2k+ easily. High risk i guess but to me i feel like that attack was still pretty quick and did like a tenth of my health not to mention he gonna combo into more after it. some of the moves in the game do insane damage as a single and while it is slower than most moves its not that slow to justify the damage. With naoto if i use all 5 bullets in aim mode it does like less than 1000 damage but if i do 4 shots then pause and hit the last one the last hit alone does 1000 damage . I find that crazy. This crazy long rant leads to my main question.

 

What should i do to improve my game?

With the damage scaling being the way it is what is the general best way to combo. I'm guessing hit confirming to much isn't practical and just throwing out one move specials isn't either. when a combo gets too damage scaled do you just stop it and try to reset or do just get as much damage as you can with each it? Right now i'm just practicing doing long comboes and getting the most off each it just wanna no if this is even  practical or not.

[mAc Chaos]

Breaking your post up into paragraphs will probably help get more replies. Otherwise people will skip over it.

As for combos, there are three primary factors to consider:

1) Damage

2) Corner carry

3) Meter gain

Certain combos are better suited to maximize a particular one, and weighing when the right time to use them is part of being a good player.

But generally just going for damage is fine. You don't need to spend meter to extend a combo or tack on more damage with a super unless it will do enough damage to be worth it.

Also you have a misconception about the high risk / high reward aspect. Against good players, you will rarely land a random super or extremely risky move without it being a huge punish. Combos off stuff like jabs are much better because you can reliably use them. What's better? A big combo you'll get killed trying to land, or a less damaging combo that you can hit with over and over again?

Your meter also doesn't have to be used on supers; it can be used on rapid canceling too. That lets you cancel out of a move immediately (kind of like FDAC) and extend your combo.

[D.R.F.]

This is a ranty so my main question is below. Ok damage scaling in some of these anime fighters is just crazy. Coming from someone who plays 3d fighters and capcom fighters the system of proration is just weird. I understand what its trying to do but i feel like its just goes overboard and tries to do to much and ends up not working. In games like dead or alive and Soul calibur and most 3d fighters damage scaling is there but its very slight and no one really thinks about it cause for the most part combos in the game are preset and combos are short. I usually just go by how much the combo does in damage as opposed to each individual move. In games like street fighter and other capcom fighters damage scaling is simple. This is the perfect example http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/may/09/how-combo-and-damage-scaling-works-street-fighter-iv/ . Look how simple the damage scaling is. Basically if you do more attacks the damage scaling increases. But for the most part hit confirming into specials and moves does more damage then just doing the move. In street fighter if i link a crouching light punch , crouching light kick, and crouching medium punch into a special it does like 230 ish damage or something but if i just did the special move it would have did like 180 or something. To me this makes sense. I sat in training learning the time for the links and now i can safely hit confirm into that special making it safe and doing more damage verses my cousin who just throws out random special. But in games like Persona 4 Arena and Blaz Blue its the opposite. I understand what their trying to do but i feel like it doesn't work. From what i gathered their combo system is high risk high reward. You hit confirm into comboes and do fast light attacks in the begging and your damage is reduced greatly cause their was "low risk". But if your like my cousin just throwing out random supers you do good damage cause its "high risk". Which sounds good in theory but i feel like the the difference between high risk and low risk is to big and this is mainly because of the crazy proration system. From what i understand each move adds its own amount of damage scaling by adding a certain number of poration points. Which is pretty crazy to me cause some of the moves add like 20 30 or even 40 percent damage scaling and that's just one attack. Once you start combing the damage scaling easily reaches like 40 50 60 percent . But unlike street fighter its a high combo game so even then it makes sense i guess. But then each character has a combo rate which scales down the damage so not only is the damage scaling like 50 % from the combo but also its already reduced by like 60% from the combo rate. At that point every hit is doing like 200 or 300 damage if even that much which is the only time supers are really useful cause they have minimum damage thing so its has to do at least some type of damage. Other wise most of the time they do pathetic damage that i can get from an easy meter-less combo that's easy to get off. Which to me goes against their whole high risk thing. If i throw out a super randomly in street fighter or even soul calibur 5 it does crazy damage cause everyone usually just blocks it and sees it coming. But if i throw out a super in Persona 4 Arena i do like 2.3 to 2.5 ish damage but i could easily do this amount by doing a simple combo. Some characters regular moves do like 1k+ damage easily, i would of thought wasting half a meter on a easily blockable move would have been a "high risk" and did like mad damage or something. At times i feel like the system is flawed. Lets say i'm playing naoto and i'm fighting yu in Persona 4. This yu likes to do his overhead a lot so I stand block but he does his sliding low persona attack and it does like 900 damage which is like %10+ of my max hp. Then he does super and gets like 2k+ easily. High risk i guess but to me i feel like that attack was still pretty quick and did like a tenth of my health not to mention he gonna combo into more after it. some of the moves in the game do insane damage as a single and while it is slower than most moves its not that slow to justify the damage. With naoto if i use all 5 bullets in aim mode it does like less than 1000 damage but if i do 4 shots then pause and hit the last one the last hit alone does 1000 damage . I find that crazy. This crazy long rant leads to my main question.

With the damage scaling being the way it is what is the general best way to combo. I'm guessing hit confirming to much isn't practical and just throwing out one move specials isn't either. when a combo gets too damage scaled do you just stop it and try to reset or do just get as much damage as you can with each it? Right now i'm just practicing doing long comboes and getting the most off each it just wanna no if this is even practical or not.

That is one read. Well understanding were you come from, I will say that you have to take the different anime fighters (gonna talk only arcsys for this one, p4a, bbcp and Ggxx) you have to treat their combo systems differently, since they have their different wierd things to have to deal with, from cp and its smp and hitstun timer, to personas more free form system, to guilty gears convoluted bullshit:p.

Bottom line however, is that you generally should be looking for combos that come of good moves (fast pokes, high damage starters) and squeeze the most out of the damage possibly there while still achieving knockdown.

Sure there are style combos and max damage combos, but perfecting your play and using reliable bnbs are usually more important and useful in the long run. And if you got hit by random super its cuz you let it happen. And it sucks aha

[StylisH]

Damage scaling can seem a complicated process, but IMO it all boils down to what normal/special you begin your combo with.

 

In Street Fighter, starting a combo with a Ryu crouching jab will not lead to as much damage as say standing toward fierce (or 6 fierce LOL)

 

It's the same with Blazblue.  Beginning a combo with Ragna 2a won't net you anywhere near the damage say a 5b or 5c will.

 

At least that's the way I look at it.  I'm sure the process is much more complex than that, but that's a universal starting point....

[BagelFarmer]

Ok so what i got from this is its still good to go for damaging comboes as long as its still practical and makes sense.I usually go for meterless comboes and learn those first before going for meter comboes. With meter comboes I have to wiegh if its practical to use the meter to extend or increase the damage of the combo. Like If i'm using like 75% of my bar to get like 500 more damage in a combo then its not worth it. Unless its a really close game and the extra damage will win me the round or something. Also i have to know what moves are good at starting comboes for each character  and not just do 2 or 3 jabs then confirm into other moves. Basically puuting it simply just be smart with my moves and don't waste meter on bad comboes or start comboes of bad moves like a noob and  just don't throw out random stuff and get wrecked.

[StylisH]

Ok so what i got from this is its still good to go for damaging comboes as long as its still practical and makes sense.I usually go for meterless comboes and learn those first before going for meter comboes. With meter comboes I have to wiegh if its practical to use the meter to extend or increase the damage of the combo. Like If i'm using like 75% of my bar to get like 500 more damage in a combo then its not worth it. Unless its a really close game and the extra damage will win me the round or something. Also i have to know what moves are good at starting comboes for each character  and not just do 2 or 3 jabs then confirm into other moves. Basically puuting it simply just be smart with my moves and don't waste meter on bad comboes or start comboes of bad moves like a noob and  just don't throw out random stuff and get wrecked.

 

Meter management comes with experience plus character playstyle.  Using BB as a reference, Rachel would use 50 heat in combos (Baden Baden Lily) or to buy time to restock wind (Tempest Dahlia or however it's spelled).  Ragna would use meter more for RCs than anything else (or a reversal Blood Kain) and would only use meter to finish off an opponent (Carnage Scissors).

[D.R.F.]

And starting combos off of like 2a are fine as long as you dont expect to get big damage. They are more to keep advantAge in your favor or if your poking out of stuff

[Airk]

Actually, it sounds like some people here don't really understand how damage works even in a "simple" game like SF4;  For example, using extra jabs to hitconfirm actually reduces your damage in that game, which is as it should be.

 

But setting that aside, I think you are unclear on the ACTUAL effects of damage scaling in these games.

 

Yes, correct, just throwing out a special is usually a bad idea.  (Note: It's usually a bad idea in SF4 too).  That is working as intended.  If you're using a special move, you are probably using it for a reason  - invulnerability, covering ground, etc.  Some moves you can combo off of, but -usually- they are used for movement and controlling space, or improving your situation.  (Your example of P4A Yu doing sliding slash into super is a good example of this, actually. The sliding slash is being used as mixup - getting 2k and change for 50 meter off a move that can be punished on block is pretty awful.)

 

Combos off jabs are very low damage, partly because of damage scaling, but actually mostly because of the 'starter value' that caps the combo at a shorter length of time.  This is because jabs are fast, easy to land, and yes, low risk.  Again, this is similar to SF4, where comboing into an ultra off a few jabs will generally get you lower damage than just doing the ultra raw.

Combos off heavier attacks lead into more damage, because those attacks are (theoretically) harder to land (Note: This breaks down somewhat when you have characters with absurdly good 5C attacks.) and thus, allow you to do a longer combo for more damage.

 

In terms of what combos you should learn, it depends on your character, but a beginner should learn the following TYPES of combos:

 

A "short combo" that you can do off 5A/2A, because you're going to be pushing these buttons a lot, simply because they are fast. (i.e. if you are within jab range of your opponent, you push 5C while he pushes 5A, he's going to hit you and get a combo, because 5A is faster).   These combos generally won't do a lot of damage (most characters can get somewhere in neighborhood of 2k off this) but you'll be hitting these a lot, so it's important to know.

a "normal combo" - which will probably work off your 5B and/or 5C.  This combo will be longer and more damaging than your short combo, and will come into play at ranges when jabs aren't appropriate.  Most characters can do the same combo off 5B and 5C, with the latter doing more damage.

A "punish combo" - which will vary with starter depending on your character, but with the objective of piling on the damage when you get the opportunity to do whatever combo you want (after blocking an uppercut type move, for example).  These combos can do a LOT of damage.

A combo of a throw, because throws are useful for mixup.

 

And then there are a pile of variations on those - combos off your anti air. Midscreen vs corner versions of the 'normal' combo in particular (there's usually not too much difference on the jab and punish combos).  Combos off air throw.  Punish combos that vary depending on the resources you have available (whether or not you have 50 meter for a rapid cancel can make a huge difference in your damage output here, as can whether or not you decide to hit Overdrive.). Combos off less commonly used normals or certain specials. Etc.

 

But if you start with the 4 types above (or depending on character, you may want to replace the throw combo with an anti-air combo) you won't go too far wrong.

[BagelFarmer]

 

Actually, it sounds like some people here don't really understand how damage works even in a "simple" game like SF4;  For example, using extra jabs to hitconfirm actually reduces your damage in that game, which is as it should be.

 

But setting that aside, I think you are unclear on the ACTUAL effects of damage scaling in these games.

 

Combos off jabs are very low damage, partly because of damage scaling, but actually mostly because of the 'starter value' that caps the combo at a shorter length of time.  This is because jabs are fast, easy to land, and yes, low risk.  Again, this is similar to SF4, where comboing into an ultra off a few jabs will generally get you lower damage than just doing the ultra raw.

Combos off heavier attacks lead into more damage, because those attacks are (theoretically) harder to land (Note: This breaks down somewhat when you have characters with absurdly good 5C attacks.) and thus, allow you to do a longer combo for more damage.

 

In street fighter damage scaling isnt enough to really lessen your damage though unless your comboing into ultra or super. Basic chains and links into specials usually (not always) do more damage and is safer than just doing it raw. With cammy's spiral arrow in SF4 i always hit confirm into it cause its unsafe on block. Hit confirming into it does more damage than me doing it raw and being unsafe.If that's the case unless i need to get across the screen or punish when my jabs cant reach why would i ever do it raw . If i do 3 normals into a special it still does more damage than me just doing that special. But in Arc system games if i use 3 normal's into a special it barely does the damage of the special raw. In street fighter its clear don't throw out random shorukens unless as a anti air or reversal (but then its not really random) cause if i do it might get punished but i can hit confirm into it and still do more damage then a random DP and the jabs faster.Which for the most part why i feel in SF more hits kind of = more damage unless u throwing out like 4 jabs or something.But in these games its not that clear to me cause it does a lot more damage raw. Hitting the last 5th bullet with naoto raw does more damage then if i hit all five bullets in a combo. 

 

But i get what your saying. 5B and 5C Have more range than 5A so if i could hit a 5B or 5C go for it. But if the other player really close 5A would be easier cause it comes out faster but its not gonna do a lot of damage but its better than getting hit by his 5A or him blockig my 5C and getting punished. And learning combo's for every situation is a good idea. Usually i just practice combo's but i should be practicing combo's for each situation and no what i can get off of each attack.  This is good. Thinking about this whole damage thing a little different now. Thx guys.

[D.R.F.]

What character do you plan on/ are using in cp?

[Airk]

In street fighter damage scaling isnt enough to really lessen your damage though unless your comboing into ultra or super. Basic chains and links into specials usually (not always) do more damage and is safer than just doing it raw. With cammy's spiral arrow in SF4 i always hit confirm into it cause its unsafe on block. Hit confirming into it does more damage than me doing it raw and being unsafe.If that's the case unless i need to get across the screen or punish when my jabs cant reach why would i ever do it raw . If i do 3 normals into a special it still does more damage than me just doing that special. But in Arc system games if i use 3 normal's into a special it barely does the damage of the special raw. In street fighter its clear don't throw out random shorukens unless as a anti air or reversal (but then its not really random) cause if i do it might get punished but i can hit confirm into it and still do more damage then a random DP and the jabs faster.Which for the most part why i feel in SF more hits kind of = more damage unless u throwing out like 4 jabs or something.But in these games its not that clear to me cause it does a lot more damage raw. Hitting the last 5th bullet with naoto raw does more damage then if i hit all five bullets in a combo. 

 

 

 

I really don't grasp what you're saying here.   Hitconfirming with multiple jabs in SF4 reduces your damage. This is also true in BB.  Starting a combo with a couple of good strong attacks in SF4 increases your damage.  This is also true in BB. Ragna doing 5B > 5C > Hell's Fang > Followup does markedly more damage than just doing Hell's Fang > Followup (2k+ vs like 1300?)

 

So... I disagree with your assertion that comboing into a special off a couple of attacks does less damage than the special by itself?  Sure, specials done late in the combo will lose a lot of damage, but the same is true in SF4...

 

At the end of the day, combo damage works in fundamentally the same way in both games:

 

The more hits you do in a combo, the less damage subsequent hits do.  In SF4 it's STRICTLY the number of hits you do, whereas in BB the TYPES of hits matter.  That's the only real difference.

[Mcgreag]

It is the jabs that are the big difference between SF and BB I would say. In SF starting with a jab and or doing multiple jabs early in the combo might not be optimal but the difference is not that big. But in BB, especially the latest version jabs are really bad combo starters and if you are not hit confirming and start with 2-3 of them the damage is going to be very limited. For most other normal attack starters the difference is not nearly as large (there are of course exceptions). Post the jabs if you have a choice of 2 different attacks that will both lead into the same followup one of them might result in more damage but difference is in general going to be less than 10% of the total combo damage.

 

To me this is how it should be, why should you get good damage from mashing 5/2A? Attacks that are not only fast, but cancel into itself on wiff and mostly safe on block (if nothing else it will always lead into a block string with mixups

[Airk]

Yeah. I'm inclined to agree.  The problem with treating all moves the same for purposes of damage scaling is that how negative a move is starts to become irrelevant.

 

"Move is -6 and can only be punished by a jab?" -> Jab into huge combo for 4k!

"Move is -20 and can be punished by WTFEver?" -> WTFEver into huge combo for 4.5k?

 

That's NOT how it should work.  But it kindof IS in Street Fighter.

[Sashi]

Meeeeeeelty blood.