Godlike Assault Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 I like this Ragna. Enlighten me with your opinions.
WolfCrimson Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Come on Wild Throw!!! Rushdown/semi-rushdown characters like Plat, Tsubaki, Hazama, Bang have a command grab but not Ragna? Seems really wrong honestly.
Fluck Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Enlighten me with your opinions. I was expecting huge in-coming nerfs, instead everyone gets nerfed along with Ragna (lol???), he is the only S Tier character that is relatively untouched while Valk and Haku are in all kinds of trouble. He still has big damage and he still has nice corner carry, all of his most important spacing tools are intact (no j.C nerf, seriously???) and that is primarily why I play Ragna. I'm not bothered at all that he has weaker pressure or mixup cause those aspects of his game have always been mediocre anyways.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 We're far enough away from release that all of this can change, so there's really no point in getting too upset about it. Fluck has good points, Ragna's rushdown capability has always been somewhat weak in comparison to the rest of the cast. The main difference between the versions where he's good and the versions where he isn't good have mostly related to his damage output compared to the rest of the cast and whether or not the characters that give him trouble are strong in that particular version. EX Ragna really isn't that different from previous versions, yet he's S tier in that game. Why? From what I can see, damage off of everything. Just gives more backing to the idea of him being a strong aggressive spacing character, as opposed to a rushdown character.
YukiBlue Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 You can't give a character with a DP, Solid AA, Install and Incredible normals a command grab. It just doesn't work like that...Right?
KayEff Posted August 30, 2012 Author Posted August 30, 2012 well minus the incredible normals tsubaki has all that stuff and even then tsubaki's normals are okay and ragna's normals aren't really that great
Errol Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 tsubaki's command grab isn't functional as a damage throw anyway. it gets charge. you should think of it more like platinum's throw than like Bang's...
Fluck Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 You can't give a character with a DP, Solid AA, Install and Incredible normals a command grab. It just doesn't work like that...Right? Sol ?_?
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Yeah, Ragna's normals don't fall under the category of "incredible". I would call them functional, and he has at least one tool for almost every scenario, but they don't come together in a way that is especially strong, so you have to be a pretty strong player to make them work, or you just have to be incredibly lame. This leads back to what I was saying in that the stronger versions of Ragna typically had better damage in BnB situations. In order for his gameplan to really come together, every hit has to count for something. This is a similar concept to Sol, though not as strong since Sol not only had better offensive tools, but the game he was in was better geared (lol) towards an offensive playstyle. He is designed to be an easily understood character who can be played in an aggressive manner, a fun character for a newer or less serious player to play. This is not to say you can't play him seriously, but your approach has to change if you intend to be competitive. As far as command grabs, my guess is that Mori doesn't want another Sol in his game. Ragna is already similar enough in design that giving him more of Sol's useful tools would sort of degrade the character's identity. It's unfortunate for those of us who tend to look at these games from a more competition-focused perspective, but that's just the way it is.
Kuraudo_V6 Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 According to my friend, one of the biggest reasons why Ragna was SO good in Extend wasn't just because of his damage off of everything, but the fact that insta-blocking was nerfed allowing Ragna to keep in easier even on footsies. So maybe that played a big part in Ragna's beastly status in the last game. I can't wait to play the new game though. The loketest in Akihabara alone was awesome to play the first time around. I think that Ragna doesn't need a command grab. When you think about it, his command grab is Devoured by Darkness. Better now that it's a normal distortion instead of only being used in Blood Kain.
Cheefoo Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Maybe if they make DbD not have such shit P2 proration, it could be a somewhat viable option with 100 heat. Oh, and have it come out during superflash pretty please.
KayEff Posted August 30, 2012 Author Posted August 30, 2012 i'm pretty sure they're going to change DbD's P2 now, maybe make it to somewhere around 50, especially when you consider the fact that you can now RC DbD.
KayEff Posted August 30, 2012 Author Posted August 30, 2012 dunno, but i would conjecture that it would be impossible to followup meterlessly, just like with carnage scissors though it's just conjecture
Gramas Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 I just hope they dont remove tools in neutral as far as 6B C gatlings I think they want you to hitconfirm the 6B.....and ragna had 6A galings back in the first loketest right?Did they removed those again?lol
WolfCrimson Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 Next batch of JBBS posts: 55 ：名無しさん：2012/08/28(火) 23:49:15 ID:K5qC0QKcO 立ち回りじゃ使えないって事はハザマのヒレントツみたいなもん？ BSループ…いやなんでもない 56 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 00:27:09 ID:d.lnJYgUO テスタメントさん、出番ですよ 57 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 00:43:36 ID:rdSlqWBkO ｳｫｰ!ﾄｩｰﾘｬ!ﾌﾞﾗｯﾄﾞｻｲｽﾞ!ｳｫｰ!ﾄｩｰﾘｬ!ﾌﾞﾗｯﾄﾞｻｲｽﾞ! 58 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 00:45:35 ID:pSSl.yxUO BSﾙｰﾌﾟでうおぉ！連呼するﾗｸﾞﾅが… 59 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 00:57:27 ID:eDV4ADlI0 踊りやがれぇ！踊りやがれぇ！ 60 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 01:12:15 ID:02J8OXSA0 ヒレンループはチマチマしててダサいがＢＳのダイナミックなモーションなら見栄えも良いはず(迫真) 61 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 01:16:46 ID:zHeLwRbs0 ブラッドサイズは直ガされても有利だったよ。 めくり性能はほとんどない。めくれると思っても正面ガードになる。 デッドスパイクダッシュキャンセルはガードで有利、直ガは調べてない。 俺は他キャラ使いだけど友人のラグナ使いと二人で調べたので確実。 62 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 01:31:43 ID:eDV4ADlI0 >>61 レベルが低すぎる。つまらなすぎ 半年はROMれ 63 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 07:48:36 ID:Eed6SkVM0 そもそも上のまとめにも誤情報あるしどうでもいい 64 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 08:18:56 ID:wUAqvZmA0 >>61 DSダッシュキャンセルは先端付近か持続重ねじゃないと有利取れなかったぞ・・・ 65 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 08:26:31 ID:Iu2qn7MMO 先端付近ってお前それ結局持続じゃねえの 66 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 08:31:14 ID:wUAqvZmA0 >>38だけど >>45 -6～-7ってそれ空中版じゃ・・・空中版なら余裕で反撃確定レベルの不利Ｆだよ ロケテは動画撮影禁止だし根拠とか証明とかできるものは無いからあれだけど 同キャラで調べたりはしてないがロケテラグナ10クレくらい触ってブラッドサイズとデットスパイクは結構色々試して確認したんで 地上版ブラッドサイズがガードさせて有利なのは間違いないと言える自信はある 67 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 12:20:59 ID:NTEDae620 あんだけモーションでかくて不利だったらがっかりする 68 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:14:28 ID:J.icvz.A0 61だけど、デッドスパイクダッシュキャンセルは密着でガードさせて上いれっぱで試したから確実だよ。 最速ダッシュキャンセルが少しシビア？だからミスったら不利になるだけ。 69 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:28:17 ID:91iZ57Tg0 ハーデスはガードされても有利だったよ 上いれっぱで試したから確実。 70 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:29:45 ID:IHW.gf1k0 romが違うんじゃないのかね？ どちらも嘘には見えない書き込みだ 71 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:30:04 ID:wUAqvZmA0 >>68 なん・・だと・・俺のやりこみが足りなかったみたいで否定文書いてしまってごめん 稼動したら最速ダッシュキャンセルの練習10000000回しよう！有益な情報さんくす 72 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:37:34 ID:wUAqvZmA0 >>70 ノエルスレでもromが違うって話題が出てますね、俺は九州ロケテで色々確認したんだけど もしromが違う説が正しいのなら別のロケテ場所だと>>45の言うとおりブラッドサイズは反撃確定だっただろうか？ 73 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:44:53 ID:Eed6SkVM0 EXロケテの時でも地域によってrom違いでアンケートの差異を見てたケースがあったからな… 74 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:47:46 ID:6Z7IqrQg0 おまえら本当に馬鹿だな。ロケテではラグナしかいないのか？ｗｗｗ もっとはっきり変わってる他キャラがいるのに他スレで話題にならねーわけねーだろｗ こんな釣りに構ってどうすんだよ。とマジレス 75 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 14:16:08 ID:wUAqvZmA0 確認しようが無いんだから釣りかどうかも分からない 何でも釣り認定してるからＤＳｄｃの話題の時だって情報提供してくれた人が嫌な思いしたんじゃないの？ 疑ってるなら何も書き込む必要ないよ、そうやって周りの猜疑心煽って情報かき回してるって自覚しなよ 76 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 14:42:38 ID:VtFyTses0 釣りだと思わなら釣り乙って思って書き込まなきゃいいんだよ なんで俺は釣りってわかってっからｗｗってドヤ顔で書き込む必用があるのか 77 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 14:48:16 ID:Daez9Z2E0 不明瞭な事が多い中、議論を交わした所で妄想の域を出る事はないと思う。 これから色んな変更も加わる事だろうし穏やかにいこうよ。 78 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 14:56:20 ID:6Z7IqrQg0 お前らが馬鹿で騙されてるだけなら構わないが、それで何十レスも進んで議論してるのが見苦しいんだよ 79 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 15:12:40 ID:Jsb0etXI0 何書き込んでも疑われるようなスレにわざわざ書き込むような御方はいらっしゃいませんわな 80 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 15:23:05 ID:NTEDae620 そういえばほぼ密着でCSをハクメンのJB？（した方向に蹴るやつ） すかしてカウンターとれたよ 玉無敵はわからない 81 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 15:24:18 ID:Daez9Z2E0 まああれだ、不毛な煽りをする人は闇にモグモグされるといいよ。 そんな事より次回のロケテに向けて調べたい事、調べて欲しい事をまとめておいた方がよっぽどお得な気がするよ。 82 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 23:25:30 ID:/blFYG9U0 新技でここまで荒れるとはな 83 ：名無しさん：2012/08/30(木) 19:14:44 ID:QOvOaKeU0 そして誰も書き込まなくなった 84 ：名無しさん：2012/08/31(金) 06:16:26 ID:pvPsOVeg0 今のところ不味そうなのは6Aガード時jc不可能ぐらいでなんだかんだ6Bもコンボ出来ないわけじゃないから心配ないんだよな。 85 ：名無しさん：2012/08/31(金) 15:44:37 ID:AvCPBtTw0 ６B先端ヒット時６A繋がらなかった？ あと中央ノーゲージでまだおｄｃから何か繋がった？
KayEff Posted September 1, 2012 Author Posted September 1, 2012 55 ：名無しさん：2012/08/28(火) 23:49:15 ID:K5qC0QKcO Doesn't [blood Scythe] seem like it would work like Hazama's Hirentotsu? Blood Scythe loops...I mean never mind 56 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 00:27:09 ID:d.lnJYgUO Here comes Testament 59 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 00:57:27 ID:eDV4ADlI0 Dance dance! 60 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 01:12:15 ID:02J8OXSA0 Hirentotsu loops became old due to how boring they were, but I'm expecting Blood Scythe loops (if real) are going to have some sort of dynamic motion. 61 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 01:16:46 ID:zHeLwRbs0 Blood Scythe is still safe even on IB. Blood Scythe crossup is hard to pull off and almost never happens. If it does crossup I'm thinking you can still block it with the same direction. Dead Spike dash cancel is safe on block, but whether it is on IB is still unknown. I've been playing other characters, and my friend was playing Ragna, but there were only a couple people there who could reliably test his stuff. 62 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 01:31:43 ID:eDV4ADlI0 >>61 So much scrub. So boring. ROM loops for half a year. 68 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:14:28 ID:J.icvz.A0 #61, it's confirmed that opponents can jump out after the dash cancel if Dead Spike hits the opponent at its earliest active frame. Isn't it a little tight if you use the earliest dash cancel? I'm guessing if you miss Dead Spike you'll be at disadvantage. 69 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 13:28:17 ID:91iZ57Tg0 Gauntlet Hades on block is safe. It's confirmed that you're able to jump out afterwards. 80 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 15:23:05 ID:NTEDae620 Which reminds me, close-range Carnage Scissors is Hakumen j.B now? Still ends up in CH state on whiff. Don't know if it's still projectile invincible. 81 ：名無しさん：2012/08/29(水) 15:24:18 ID:Daez9Z2E0 Well it's okay, the people with no confidence about this don't matter anyways. Regardless, I'm excited to test out stuff for next loketest, though I don't think there will be anyone else there who'd end up making a summary of the next loketest changes. 84 ：名無しさん：2012/08/31(金) 06:16:26 ID:pvPsOVeg0 At this point it's pretty terrible that 6A is not jump cancellable on block, but I'm sure this doesn't mean that we won't be able to use different combos off of 6B. 85 ：名無しさん：2012/08/31(金) 15:44:37 ID:AvCPBtTw0 Does corner 6B > 6A work? And can you followup from 22C > dc midscreen meterlessly? i'mma herpin and i'mma derpin
SolheartStud Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) Blood Scythe, Dead Spike, AND Gauntlet Hades are safe on block? AND(If I understand what JBBS said correctly) being able to jump out afterwards of GH means you can jump cancel on block then correct? Sounds like Ragna has more ways to stay in now it seems. Edited September 1, 2012 by SolheartStud
WhiteWolfMomiji Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 I don't think GH is jump cancelable or anything, cause that'll be too good to be true. Doesn't it mean you have enough time to jump after blocked?
KayEff Posted September 1, 2012 Author Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) by "being able to jump out" it's probably meant in that after the move is blocked, the opponent can jump out and be able to block in the air. this implies that the advantage is something below +2 or +3, assuming that the move used afterwards is 5 or 6 frames startup and jump startup is 4 frames (of course, i could be wrong. they are making the game faster after all). the way to test it is to use the move, have the opponent block, then jump after blockstun is finished, then use a move afterwards to see if the opponent blocks it or not. you cannot block during jump startup, so it's either they block or they don't block. regardless, if gauntlet hades does turn out to be safe on block, then it'll really help ragna's pressure out a lot. it's a nice change of pace from when more than half of your moves aren't safe without meter. Edited September 1, 2012 by KayEff
MashThat5A Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 So wait, you're telling me they're trying to make Ragna a good character for real reasons rather than, "Herp derp damage"??? I'm getting pretty hype.
Cheefoo Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 by "being able to jump out" it's probably meant in that after the move is blocked, the opponent can jump out and be able to block in the air. this implies that the advantage is something below +2 or +3, assuming that the move used afterwards is 5 or 6 frames startup and jump startup is 4 frames (of course, i could be wrong. they are making the game faster after all). the way to test it is to use the move, have the opponent block, then jump after blockstun is finished, then use a move afterwards to see if the opponent blocks it or not. you cannot block during jump startup, so it's either they block or they don't block. regardless, if gauntlet hades does turn out to be safe on block, then it'll really help ragna's pressure out a lot. it's a nice change of pace from when more than half of your moves aren't safe without meter. Perhaps they meant Ragna could jump out, meaning it would be -3~ instead of +3~? I also wish they'd make hell's fang have set recovery frames. So if you hit with the later active frames, it's plus on block, and if you hit with the earlier frames, it's more punishable. I mean, really... wh-why does Hazama get all these specials that are plus on block and we don't? TERUMIIIII!!
WolfCrimson Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Thank you KF for the translations. I can't believe it, GH safe on block? I hope it stays in the final version. Ragna keeps getting better and better. To me, i don't see 6B losing its C gatlings as a big nerf, if it is still special cancellable. I wanna know if 6B > DS is airtight.
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