B.Z.B Posted August 9, 2014 Posted August 9, 2014 Seems pretty rudimentary but Notsu's first combo I can't replicate for the life of me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7l3VCMt_Lw 6D j.c, 5a, 2C, 6B, 2C 236A ... They always tech out between the 2c and 236A in training mode, but on the screen it looks like Notsu's combo was legit. Any idea what I'm missing? Thought it might be charcater specific, but I can't get it to work on chaos either. Does GRD Breaking cause longer hitstun?
LitchiFayeBling Posted August 9, 2014 Posted August 9, 2014 counter hit / grd break give extra hitstun overall to your combo. and it is a very very noticeable and substantial amount. 6D (assault) starters are the shortest starter you can get in the game, but with Counter hit/grd break they become more like normal combos. note you cannot counter hit vatista (she is just protected vs ch as her mechanic) funny cuz someone else asked me the same question.
Tong Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 Hey guys, is there an optimal (and practical) combo list somewhere? I tried some of the wiki combos and some of them just doesnt seem feasible on matches. Appreciated!
Killey Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I was transcribing a combo video that was linked on the wiki. I tried to get the ones that were just practical but there might be some that aren't. I haven't played around with the game enough to be able to make that difference just yet. Damage values are off due to the timing of the Vorpal damage boosts. Legend: xx = Special Cancel jc = Jump Cancel [x] = Button Hold ]x[ = Button Release nj = Neutral jump (puddle) = indicates the normal/special places a puddle that's required for the rest of the combo (Puddle) = Section headings with this requires a puddle on screen prior to starting the combo Mid-screen Combos: Mid-screen 0% Meter: 6D->j.C, 5A, 2C, jc j.6B OTG (puddle), j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 623A, 66C = 2286 Damage 6D->j.C, 5A, 5B, 2C, jc j.6B OTG (puddle), walk back 2C, 5BB (1st B whiffs) xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2334 Damage *Note: These are confirms off of an assault j.C without a puddle. Without a counter hit or a GRD break you will not be able to go into the typical combo 236A extender. You can, however, go into the 236A extender if you land a normal jump in with j.C. If you hit the assault j.C early you’ll have to use 5A to continue the combo but if you hit the j.C deep you can omit the 5A and use 5B instead for more damage. After 66C you can special cancel to 214[A]/ or 22B to place a puddle near your opponent for oki options. You can also do a delayed 236A/B for a meaty but it’ll depend on how the opponent techs. 6D->j.6B (puddle), land, 5B, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], delayed j.6B (puddle) OTG, land, dash 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3438 Damage *Note: You want to delay the second j.6B as late as possible so that the puddle is as close to the opponent as possible. This gives you enough time to dash in close for 2C xx 623A to hit properly for the juggle state. 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C, 5BB (1st hit whiffs) xx 623B, dash 2B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A/B] = 2765 Damage 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C, 5BB (1st hit whiffs), 3B, jc j.B, j.C, land, 2C xx 22B/214[A/B] (whiff) = 2243 Damage *Note: These combos are when 5B hits around max range. The typical 236A follow up will only get 1 hit and will not allow for a proper extension. 2A x2, 5B, 2C, jc j.6B OTG (puddle), j.C, j.B, j.A, land, 3B, 2C xx 623A, 66C = 2355 Damage 5A, 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], land, dash 2B OTG, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2743 Damage 3B, jc j.C, j.A, j.B, land 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C, 5BB (1st hit whiffs) xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2518 Damage 3B, jc j.C, j.A, j.B, land 2C xx 236A OTG (puddle), dash j[C], dash 2B, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2417 Damage 2C, 5BB, jc j.C, j.B, land, 2C, 3C xx 22B = 2513 Damage 6[C] (overhead) xx 623A, 5B, jc j.C, delay j.B, land, 2C = 2579 Damage 236A (4 hits & puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], delayed j.6B OTG, land, dash 2C xx 623A, dash 2B, jc j.B, j.A, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3655 Damage 623A, 5B(delay)B, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], land, dash 2B OTG, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C = 3213 Damage Mid-screen 0% Meter Side Switch: 5A, 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash side switch, j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B xx 623A, j[C] xx j.236A (meaty) = 2555 Damage 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A, dash side switch, j.A, j.B, j.C, 3B, 2C xx 623A, 214[A], 3B+]A[, jc j[C], 66C = 2922 Damage 3C xx 623A, dash 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash side switch, j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 2C xx 214[A] (whiff) = 2949 Damage Mid-screen 0% Meter (Puddle): Puddle below - 6D->j.C, 5A, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], land, dash 2B OTG, 2C xx 214[A] (whiff) = 2079 Damage Puddle below - 5B, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], j.6B (puddle) OTG, dash 2C xx 623A, dash 2B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land 3B, 2C, 2A (whiff) = 2965 Damage Puddle below - 6[C] (overhead) xx 623A, delayed 6B (Puddle), 2C xx 236A, dash j[C], dash 2B OTG, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C = 3290 Damage Puddle below – 236A, dash j.C, delay j.B, land, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], dash 2B OTG, slight delay 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3222 Damage *Note: Aim the j.C to hit just as 236A finishes. If you hit the first 2C too high you can delay the 6B to get the rest of the combo to work. Puddle below/behind – 623A, dash 2C, 6B, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], dash 2B OTG, j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C = 2995 Damage Puddle behind - 3C xx 623A, dash 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], dash 2B OTG, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3283 Damage Puddle behind - Air-to-Air j.C (2), delay j.B, land, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A, dash j[C], dash 2B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C = 3256 Damage 214[A] Puddle below - 6BC, ]A[, dash 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C] (2), dash 2B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A]/ (whiff) = 3159 Damage 214[A/B] Puddle below – 5A (]A/B[) xx 236A, j[C], land, dash 2B OTG, slight delay 2C, jc j.6B (puddle), j.C (2), j.B, j.A, land, 3B, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2896 Damage *Note: You’re releasing the charged A/B puddle as you soon as you press 5A then cancelling into 236A. 214[A] puddle below - 6[C] (overhead), 6BC, ]A[, j[C], dash 2B OTG, jc j.B, j.A, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A/B] = 2637 Damage Mid-screen 0% Meter (Puddle) Side Switch: Puddle below - 5A, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash side switch, j[C], land, dash 2B, slight delay 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2859 Damage Puddle behind/below - 3C xx 623A, dash 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash side switch, j.A, j.C, j.B, land, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2949 Damage Mid-screen 100% Meter: 5B, 5C, 2C, 3C xx 22C, 66C xx 214B, 214A = 2828 Damage 6B (full screen), 6BC xx 22C, dash 66C xx 214A/B, 623A/B = 2571 Damage 2C, 5BB, jc j.C, slight delay j.B, land, 2C xx 214A xx 236C, dash j[C], land, dash 2B OTG, slight delay 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3049 Damage 6[C] xx 214A xx 236C, dash j[C], land, dash 2B OTG, slight delay 2C, jc j.6B (puddle), land, j.C, j.B, j.A, land, 3B, 2C xx 623A, (corner) 66C xx 214[A/B] = 3700 Damage 214C, 5B, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], land, dash 2B OTG, j.A, j.B, j.C, 3B, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3394 Damage 63214C xx Chain Shift, j.6B OTG (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j.C, j.B, land, 5B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2579 Damage Mid-screen 100% Meter (Puddle): Puddle below - 63214C xx Chain Shift, 236A OTG, dash j[C], dash 2B OTG, j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2585 Damage Mid-screen 100% Meter Side Switch: 2C, 5BB, jc j.C, slight delay j.B, land, 2C xx 214A xx 236C, dash side switch, j[C], land, dash 2B OTG, slight delay, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] = 3326 Damage Mid-screen 200% Meter: 6D->j.C, 5A, 2C, jc j.6B OTG (puddle), j.C, j.B, j.A, 3B, 2C, 623A, 2C xx 236C xx Chain Shift, Veil Off, 41236D = 4179 Damage 5B, 2C, jc j.6B OTG (puddle), land, 2C xx 236A OTG xx Chain Shift, Veil Off, 214C, 623A, dash 5B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, 3B, 6C xx 41236D = 4295 Damage 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, 66C xx 236C OTG xx Chain Shift, Veil Off, 214C, 623A xx 41236D = 5184 Damage Mid-screen 200% Meter (Puddle): Puddle below – 5B, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], land, 236C OTG xx Chain Shift, Veil Off, 214C, 623A xx 41236D = 4974 Damage 3B Anti-Air Combos 0% Meter: 3B, jc j.C, j.B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], dash 2B OTG, 2C xx 214[A] (whiff) = 2685 Damage Corner Combos: Corner 0% Meter: 6D->j.C, 5A, 2C, 3C xx 22B (corner), 214C, 66C xx 236A OTG, walk forward jump j[C], land, 623A OTG, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2667 Damage 6D->j.C, 5A, 2C, 3C xx 22A, 3B xx 623A, delay j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, walk forward then jump back j[C] (2), 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2736 Damage 6D->j.6B (puddle), land, 5B, 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 236A OTG, walk back D, nj[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] = 3517 Damage *Note: You need to walk back during the first 236A OTG so that it gives enough time for the move to complete when 66C hits so you can cancel into the second 236A OTG. If you do the 66C xx 236A sequence too early 236A won’t come out because the first one isn’t done. During the second 236A you’re aiming the nj[C] to hit just as it completes and puts the opponent in the highest possible position. The [C] during the nj[C] needs to be timed as your rising in the air so that the [C] hits at the peak of your jump; this allows you to j.B and then land before the opponent does so that 2C xx 623A hits. 5A, 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], (corner) dash 2B OTG, slight delay 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2662 Damage 5A, 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, slight [D], 66C xx 236A OTG, walk back D, nj[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] = 3415 Damage *Note: The slight D charge after 236A OTG is used for a timing mechanism for 66C to hit just as 236A ends so that you can special cancel 66C into another 236A. The second 236A requires you to time the nj[C] just as 236A finishes so that you hit the nj[C] at the peak of your jump. The charge for nj[C] needs to be done while you’re rising in the air. 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, 66C (corner) xx 214[A/B], ]A/B[, 5B, jc nj[C] , j.B, land, 2C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2852 Damage 5B, 2C, 3C xx 22A, 5BB xx 623A, walk back j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, walk forward jump back j[C] xx j.236A OTG, dash 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3139 Damage 2C, 5B(delay)B, jc j.B, j.A, j.C, land, 2C (corner) xx 22A (puddle), 3B xx 623A, walk back j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, walk forward jump back, j[C], 66C OTG xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2751 Damage 6[C] (overhead), 22A (puddle), 5BB xx 623A, walk back j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, micro dash jump back j[C] xx j.236A OTG, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3539 Damage 3C xx 22A, 5BB xx 623A, delayed j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A, micro dash jump back j[C] xx j.236A OTG, 66C xx 214 [A/B] = 3409 Damage 3C xx 22A, dash 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 214[A/B], ]A/B[, 5B, jc j[C], j.B, 2C xx 214[A/B] = 3842 Damage 3B, jc j.C (2), j.A, j.B, land, 5B (corner), 2C xx 22A (puddle), 5B xx 623A, walk back j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, jump back j[C], 66C OTG xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 2802 Damage 236A (4 hits & puddle), dash j[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 22A, 5B, 3C xx 623A, walk back j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, micro dash jump back j[C] xx j.236A OTG, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 4136 Damage *Note: All j.6B, 66C combos require you to input the 66C as fast possible so that it combos after the j.6B. You can input 66C during the j.6B hit animation. 236A (4 hits & puddle), 2C xx 623A, delayed 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 214[A], ]A[, 5B, jc j[C], j.B, land, 3B, 2C = 4441 Damage Corner 0% Meter (Puddle): Puddle below - 5A, 5B, 2C xx 236A OTG, slight [D], 66C, 236A OTG, walk back D, nj[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3415 Damage Puddle below - 2C xx 22A, 5BB xx 623B, j.6B, 6C xx 236A OTG, walk forward jump back, j[C] xx j.236A OTG, 66C xx 214[A] (whiff) = 3409 Damage Puddle below – 2C xx 623B, dash 2C, 6B, 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 214[A], 5B, ]A[, nj[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 214[A] (whiff) = 3842 Damage Puddle below - 6[C] (overhead) xx 623A, wait 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 214[A], ]A[, 3B, jc nj[C], j.B, land, 3B, 2C = 3851 Damage Puddle below - 6[C] (overhead) xx 623A, wait 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 214[A], ]A[, 3B, jc j[C], j.B, land, 3B, 2C = 3851 Damage Puddle below – 236A, dash j.C, delay j.B, 2C xx 22A, 5B, 5C xx 623A, walk back j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, walk forward jump back j[C] xx j.236A OTG, 66C xx 214[A] (whiff) = 4136 Damage 214[A/B] Puddle below - ]A/B[, 3C xx 22A, 2C xx 623A, delayed 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 236A OTG, walk back nj[C], j.B, land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A]/ or 236A = 3814 Damage 214[A/B] Puddle below – 2B, 5C, 2C, 3C xx 22A/B, ]A/B[, 66C xx 236A OTG, back dash nj[C], land, 623A OTG, 66C xx 214[A/B] = 3356 Damage 214[A/B] Puddle in front - 6[C] (overhead), 6BC, ]A/B[, j[C], land, 2B OTG xx 22A, 3B xx 623A, walk back delayed j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, walk back nj[C], land, 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3418 Damage Puddle & 214 Puddle below – 6[C], (]B[) xx 236A OTG, D, nj[C], land, 66C OTG xx 236A, walk back D, nj[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3986 Damage 214[A/B] Puddle below – 5A (]A/B[) xx 236A, D, j[C], dash 2B OTG xx 22A/B, 3B xx 623A, walk back j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, walk back nj[C], 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3444 Damage 214[A/B] Puddle below – 5A (]A/B[) xx 236A, D, j[C], land, j.6B OTG (puddle), land, 22A, 3B xx 623A, walk back j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, j[C], 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3563 Damage 214[A/B] Puddle below - ]A/B[, dash 5A, 6C, jc j.C, delay j.B, land, 2C xx 22A, 5B, 5C xx 623A, walk back delayed j.6B, 66C xx 236A OTG, back dash nj[C] xx j.236A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3688 Damage 214[A/B] Puddle below - ]A/B[, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 236A OTG, walk back D, nj[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3896 Damage *Note: During the nj[C] you need to wait just as 236A ends. You need to press and hold C during the jumping animation; you’re aiming to hit the j[C] at the peak of the opponent’s height but during the start of Carmine’s descent. This lets you hit j.B and land before the opponent does so you can get the 2C to hit high enough for 623A to continue the juggle. If the opponent hits the ground before you can land j.B it means you did the j[C] too early during 236A. If the opponent techs out after j.B it means you timed the j[C] too late and the opponent is landing before you do. Corner 100% Meter: 6[C] (overhead), 22A (puddle), 5BB, jc j.C, j.B, 2C, 6[C] xx 623A, 66C xx 214A xx Chain Shift, 236C, walk back, 66C =3908 Damage 6[C] xx 214A xx 236C, nj[C], land, 214[A/B], 5B jc, ]A/B[, nj[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] = 4067 Damage *Note: Aim the nj[C] to hit during the descent of your jump so you land before the opponent. This allows 214[A/B] to OTG and continue the combo. After the 5B, press and hold C during the ascent of your jump so that you hit the nj[C] at the peak of your jump. 214C (side switch), 5B, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back 66C xx 236A OTG, walk back D, nj[C], j.B, land, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A/B] (whiff) = 3826 Damage Corner 200% Meter: 6D->j.C, 5A, 2C, 3C xx 22A (puddle), 3B xx 623A, delayed j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, back dash, nj[C], land, 236C xx Chain Shift, Veil Off, 41236D = 4488 Damage 5B, 2C, 3C xx 22A (puddle), 5B, 2C xx 236A OTG, Veil Off, 214C, 623A, 2C xx 236C, 214[A], 41236D, ]A[ = 5263 Damage 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], dash 2B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 22C, Veil Off, 236C xx 623C = 4759 Damage *Note: Cancel the 236C during the first or second hit into 623C. If you wait to recover from 236C then you won’t have enough veil off meter to do 623C. 5B, 2C, 3C xx 22A (puddle), 5B, 5C xx 623A, delayed j.6B (puddle), 66C xx 236A OTG, back dash nj[C], land, 236C OTG xx Chain Shift, Veil Off, 2C xx 236C, 214A xx 41236D = 5667 Damage 63214C xx Chain Shift, 22A OTG (corner & puddle), 3B, 5C, jc j.B, j.C, land, 2C xx 236A OTG, Veil Off, 214C, 623A, 2C, 3C, 6C xx 41236D = 4085 Damage Corner 200% Meter (Puddle): Puddle below – 623A, dash 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, walk back nj[C], land, 236A OTG, Veil Off, 214C, 3B, 6C xx 41236D = 5129 Damage
LitchiFayeBling Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 the combos in the wiki are from the "official" 2.02 combo vid
B.Z.B Posted August 10, 2014 Posted August 10, 2014 I catch a lot of people with 2C outside of the typical 2C, 6B, 2C range a lot (but not far enough for the first 5B to wiff). What is the optimal ender w/o puddle? I usually just do 2C, 5BB, JC, JB, 3B, 2C. Also what's the typical combo off a j.C or 6D j.C? They always tech out of the typical 2C 6B 2C (unless CH).
jo-p Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Killey just gave us the holy grail, great write up! But back to my fraudulence, what's the most ideal oki after landing a throw? Maybe my spacing is off but everytime I try 214[a] I always get grabbed. Im assuming 236A/tk.236B is the best option?
Kirnupiima Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 Killey just gave us the holy grail, great write up! But back to my fraudulence, what's the most ideal oki after landing a throw? Maybe my spacing is off but everytime I try 214[a] I always get grabbed. Im assuming 236A/tk.236B is the best option? Walk back a bit and then 214A, there is time. Vatista's flash kick might get you but usually I feel safe against other characters.
B.Z.B Posted August 11, 2014 Posted August 11, 2014 So I've found a few matches of Notsu / SAT's carmine on youtube - any nico videos etc I should be checking out? I'd like to see them deal with the S Tier Cast.
Merkyl999x Posted August 12, 2014 Posted August 12, 2014 This guy is pretty solid. 【UNIEL】カーマインランクマ動画part１ http://nico.ms/sm24170187 #nicoid #sm24170187 Plays as umintyu. Something like 1.1 mil online.
Tomo009 Posted August 12, 2014 Posted August 12, 2014 Anyone have anything decent from a 22A confirm midscreen? All I have is 2B 2C xx 22A 5B 5B j.C j.A j.B 2C xx 214[A] for oki 2224 damage so not amazing.
2 GB Combo Posted August 12, 2014 Posted August 12, 2014 Alright I went ahead and tested the startups of some of his normals. 22A/B is +1, so I used that and other known frame data as a reference. 5A: 6f 2A: 7f 5B: 9f 2B: 7f 5C: 15f 2C: 11f 6B: 13f (this is when the projectile is guaranteed to come out) 3B: 8f 3C: 15f 6C: 13f 6[C]: 27f Feel free to put this on the wiki. I'll try to find frame advantage later.
Magaki Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 the combos in the wiki are from the "official" 2.02 combo vid Like I mentionned before, a lot of combos there are either really character specific or just don't work at all. If you're referring to the in-birth wikia that is. Killey's list allow us to start from something that we are certain does work and can be easily expanded later on hence why what he did is extremely useful. I catch a lot of people with 2C outside of the typical 2C, 6B, 2C range a lot (but not far enough for the first 5B to wiff). What is the optimal ender w/o puddle? I usually just do 2C, 5BB, JC, JB, 3B, 2C. Also what's the typical combo off a j.C or 6D j.C? They always tech out of the typical 2C 6B 2C (unless CH). Depends a lot of the character it's used on, the amount of hits you did in order to hitconfirm and whether you're midscreen or in the corner. Learn the basic j6B routes. Usually, with puddleless combos, you go for 2C>j6B combos or j[C]>delay j6B. Dash C after a j6B OTG should work on most of the cast and will usually be followed by 623A/B. It's really hard to say at this point what is optimized or not before we manage to make a list in order to classify what exactly is character specific or isn't. For jC or 6D jC, if you got a puddle around, always go straight for 5A>2C>236A route. Without a puddle, go rather for: jC>5A>2C>(7)j6B>jCBA>3B>2C>623A>66C That's a universal combo IIRC and the one you should go with puddleless. Killey just gave us the holy grail, great write up! But back to my fraudulence, what's the most ideal oki after landing a throw? Maybe my spacing is off but everytime I try 214[a] I always get grabbed. Im assuming 236A/tk.236B is the best option? After a throw, you always have enough time to do 214[A]>walk backwards and put your fingers on B+C to react to a back tech. With the command grab, you don't have that much time so I prefer to go for 214[A]>backdash 236X is the easiest meaty to go with and it provides a puddle but it loses to delay tech way too easily and some characters can easily backdash out of it (Love you too Merkava. Love you too). So I've found a few matches of Notsu / SAT's carmine on youtube - any nico videos etc I should be checking out? I'd like to see them deal with the S Tier Cast. Here's a list containing 612 videos of Carmines. On Nicovideo of course. Be careful though, SAT is interesting to watch because the way he plays Carmine is different than the others (and it works quite well) but he likes to YOLO it out a bit too hard IMO and doesn't seem the kind of guys who prefer solid strategies. Which is what you're usually looking for when studying matchups. That's why your best bets are actually to watch Notsu (ノーツ) and Nedji (ネヂ). Nothing surprising about Notsu. Nedji though isn't as strong as Notsu and SAT but he's extremely solid and doesn't take as much risks as the 2 others which is something quite interesting considering that Carmine is a huge risk/reward character. Anyone have anything decent from a 22A confirm midscreen? All I have is 2B 2C xx 22A 5B 5B j.C j.A j.B 2C xx 214[A] for oki 2224 damage so not amazing. Just 22A as a starter you mean ? If you can link 2C after that and considering that 22A will always leave a puddle, you can go for 2C>236A. I'll check later to see the most I can get out of it midscreen considering that I mostly use it in the corner. Alright I went ahead and tested the startups of some of his normals. 22A/B is +1, so I used that and other known frame data as a reference. 5A: 6f 2A: 7f 5B: 9f 2B: 7f 5C: 15f 2C: 11f 6B: 13f (this is when the projectile is guaranteed to come out) 3B: 8f 3C: 15f 6C: 13f 6[C]: 27f Feel free to put this on the wiki. I'll try to find frame advantage later. Waaaah ! Thanks man ! That's awesome ! I'll add them right away ! Are you certain though that 2B is 7f ? Might be just me but the move doesn't really seem that fast to me. Also, if you don't mind, can you check if the whiff cancels 2A/5A from the C normals are + on block ? Anyway, a few random things: -Seems that Merkava can actually escape the pseudo-infinite simply by jumping and using flight midscreen or in the corner. It loses though against 236B. -I edited the wiki and filled the description of every moves as well as added the framedatas 2GB found. I'll probably work more on it tomorrow but if there is something that you disagree with, please don't hesitate voicing your opinion. Even if you feel like it might be silly, it could be something that I didn't think of.
2 GB Combo Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 2B is for sure 7f, both 2A and 2B trade with 3B after 22A so they have to be the same speed. I plan to test frame advantage sometime this week, but it's going to be hard without any recording equipment. I'll post here when I'm done.
Killey Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 My physical copy of the game arrived yesterday and after getting more training time with Carmine I have to fix up some information in the combos I posted so don't take that as the holy grail. I'll also try to expand on the combos with notes on execution timing and oki options after wards. I'll also be able to filter out what combos are practical and what are flashy. I'm also documenting his block strings, oki game, combo routes off of common stray hits, and the various properties of his moves. Once I have all that information organized I'll post it up. Can someone explain to me what the pseudo-infinite block string is?
Magaki Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Basically, it's: (236A>214[A]>]A[) xN Works both midscreen and in the corner but there are some ways to deal with it midscreen like with guardshield or nicely-timed backdashes. Reason why it's a pseudo-infinite is because there is a gap between 214[A] and ]A[. However, ]A[ won't disappear once triggered even on hit and 214[A] is safe on block so you can block whatever the opponent might want to throw out. Even 2As will get counter hit because of that so that's a deadly frame trap. Only Merkava and Waldstein seem to have a guaranteed way to deal with it in the corner so far. Obviously though, because it requires a 236A or a 214[A] to trigger, that's only something you do during blood pressure. It's overall a really strong tool to use. Will win you matches against people who aren't really patient and allow you to go for whatever mixup you want against more experienced players. There is also an important mind game everytime you do 214[A]. If you go for 214, you can do dash>throw and tick throw them with that. So, everytime you use a 214X, the opponent has to guess whether it's A and you keep the pseudo-infinite going or B and you throw/throw bait them.
LitchiFayeBling Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 note that 2gb's string is 236a 214 5a+releaseB repeat
Tomo009 Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Just 22A as a starter you mean ? If you can link 2C after that and considering that 22A will always leave a puddle, you can go for 2C>236A. I'll check later to see the most I can get out of it midscreen considering that I mostly use it in the corner. 2C doesn't link unless I'm just bad. I use it midscreen as well as in the corner, I love having the +1 then I can use a pinwheel with the puddle on my next blockstring.
Killey Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Basically, it's: (236A>214[A]>]A[) xN Works both midscreen and in the corner but there are some ways to deal with it midscreen like with guardshield or nicely-timed backdashes. Reason why it's a pseudo-infinite is because there is a gap between 214[A] and ]A[. However, ]A[ won't disappear once triggered even on hit and 214[A] is safe on block so you can block whatever the opponent might want to throw out. Even 2As will get counter hit because of that so that's a deadly frame trap. Only Merkava and Waldstein seem to have a guaranteed way to deal with it in the corner so far. Obviously though, because it requires a 236A or a 214[A] to trigger, that's only something you do during blood pressure. It's overall a really strong tool to use. Will win you matches against people who aren't really patient and allow you to go for whatever mixup you want against more experienced players. There is also an important mind game everytime you do 214[A]. If you go for 214, you can do dash>throw and tick throw them with that. So, everytime you use a 214X, the opponent has to guess whether it's A and you keep the pseudo-infinite going or B and you throw/throw bait them. I won a couple of matches in a ranbat last night utilizing this corner pressure tool but it wasn't perfect. I don't have the timings down so there were a bunch of gaps but the continuous pressure of 236A, 214[A]/, ]A[/]B[ got a lot of people panicking. Most people tried to chicken block after 2 reps and then I usually tag them with an air unblockable because they weren't air shielding. I actually ended up winning that ranbat so hooray for Carmine. lol I really need to get his pressure game committed to memory because I know I'm leaving too many gaps in my strings. I kept using 5B, 2C, 5A, 5C, 6C, 3C xx 22B and then depending on spacing 623A to catch people pushing buttons. A lot of the times people were pushing buttons in between 3C xx 22B (getting caught by 22B) and the 623A if the blocked the 22B. I couldn't remember the proper combo routes off of 22B so I just confirmed into 22C. I'm pretty surprised how much untechable time that 623A has since I was able to confirm into a combo from about a character to two character lengths away. Is 22C air unblockable and if so can it be air shield guarded? I was utilizing this as an anti-air and against zoning characters and found it to be a nice compliment to his zoning game. I figure it's probably not as good as I'm thinking it is since I don't see Japanese players utilize this move in the same way.
spiralfang Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Okay im new to carmine and i like the character alot is there anything i need to know as far as useful bnbs and block strings and also how hard are his bnbs to do
Merkyl999x Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 I'm not sure if it's on CH only, but you can definitely link 22A > 2Cxx236A j[C] etc. (If you hit the 22A it's almost always because they're pressing buttons anyways, so...
Killey Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Okay im new to carmine and i like the character alot is there anything i need to know as far as useful bnbs and block strings and also how hard are his bnbs to do Personally, I find these are good starting combos to learn. His combos aren't that hard to learn, imo. Most of them follow a certain format but it's just remembering your combo route based on the starter that gets tricky since he can pretty much confirm off of any stray hit. Plus you have to remember what combo to go for based on if you have blood puddle on the floor or not. Mid-screen 0% Meter: 6D->j.C (2), 5A, 2C, jc j.6B OTG (puddle), j.C (2), slight delay j.B, j.A, land, 3B, 2C xx 623A/B, 66C 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C, 5BB (1st hit whiffs) xx 623A, dash 2B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C (2), land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A] (whiff) 5A, 5B, 2C, 6B (puddle), 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C] (2), dash 2B OTG, jc j.A, j.B, j.C (2), land, 3B, 2C xx 214[A] (whiff) Mid-screen 0% Meter (Puddle): Puddle below - 5B, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C] (2), j.6B (puddle) OTG, micro dash 2C xx 623A, dash 2B, jc j.A, j.B, j.C (2), land 3B, 2C, 2A (whiff) Puddle below – 6D->j.C, 5A, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C], dash 2B OTG, 2C xx 214[A] (whiff) Mid-screen 100% Meter: 5B, 5C, 2C, 3C xx 22C, 66C xx 214B, 214[A] Corner 0% Meter: 5A, 5B, 2C, 6B, 2C xx 236A OTG, dash j[C] (2), (corner) dash 2B OTG, 2C xx 623A, 66C xx 214[A]/ (whiff) Corner 100% Meter: 6[C] (overhead), 22A (puddle), 5BB, jc j.C, j.B, 2C, 6[C] xx 623A, 66C xx 214A, DD, 236C, walk back, 66C
Merkyl999x Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 As far as his blockstrings go, the main thing you need to keep in mind is how long your opponents normals are. In general, the longer their normals are, the more C normals you want to add to the end of a blockstring before ending with 22A. So against someone like akatsuki, AB2Cxx22A will usually put you in a position that you can fish for a counterhit with 5BB or 2C and since you have the puddle from the 22A you get a super easy confirm. On someone like Nanase, though, there are ranges where AB2Cxx22A isn't plus enough so you'll want to add a 5C,3C, and/or 6C before the 22A so you can abuse the range in his normals. Also, j.[C] seems like it should be one of those buttons you throw out all day, but you want to resist using it on normal jumps because you do have some landing recovery and can get punished of it. Try to get used to poking with j.B (especially jump back j.B, land, 2C when you have a puddle nearby.) That normal has a great hitbox for defensive and offensive okay. In general, I think his combos actually require a bit of dedication (this coming from someone that plays Magneto and Dante in UMvC3 and is pretty comfortable with higher execution requirements.) For me, the dash 2B pickup took some work (start by practicing it off a 5B or 3C starter.) Also, the cancel timing on uniel is a bit strange compared to other fighters so make sure you're delaying your specials so that the A/B his around the same time the normal your trying to cancel off of is hitting your opponent. On the 5BB (1st hit whiffs)combos, make sure you're starting the combo with the tip of the 5B starter to get the right spacing (those combos are meant specifically for converting off max range pokes.) Some of his higher damage corner combos are actually pretty high execution, links + timing jump/charge normals to hit at specific heights and juggling off of negative edge traps. I've had a ton of fun with him and I feel like he's easily up there with the big 3, tier-wise, he just takes more dedication and pays much better returns on the effort you put into him.
Merkyl999x Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 http://finalclause.dantarion.com/hitboxes/#2/1/4 So this might be useful... (Just tried to look through it, It might be useful later...but right now it's pretty rough.) Edit to avoid triple posting: What's the best way to find SAT videos on niconico? Notes I can find with no problem on that huge nico match list and I've think I've seen a few Nedji, but haven't run across an SAT match yet. :/ Quad-Edit (Ultra Combo!): Is SAT the guy that plays with the tag "somethingのナイトアルト"? The 'something' is blurry Kanji that I'm not gonna waste time trying to suss out.
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