[P4AU] Rise Kujikawa Gameplay Discussion

[Justice7541]

Still pretty good if it gets you Arrow Rain unblockable setup in corner. Have you tried doing 236B meaty to detonate the existing note, set a new one, and blockstring the detonation fior that into 22A+B setup? Something like 214A > 236B meaty (detonates old note) > dash 5AA 2B(1) detonates new one) 22A+B 5AA (lightning hits)> whatever.

[Complexity]

I'll go give it a shot thanks for the ideas.

[Justice7541]

Interestingly this game seems to have some degree of crossup protection.  Not as bad as in UNIEL but it's there.  Might be old news to some but it seems like if you cross up a standing opponent from too ambiguously close they will be able to block it both ways.  Doing notes > jump forward turn around j.B can be blocked both ways for example.  It doesn't seem to apply if the opponent is crouching so there's still a "high/low" mixup in there I guess, you could do notes > 5AA 2B or 5AA j.B and the notes will cross up a crouching opponent and 2B will hit a standing one depending on how well they react to your jump.  Either way the notes will lock them down for further mixup, i.e. if they block 2B you can still do 2C for combo/more pressure.

 

If you actually want to cross someone up with something that can't be blocked both ways I tihnk notes > 5AA back jump airdash j.B is your best bet.  You pass over the opponent enough that crossup protection doesn't kick in and depending on spacing you make it not cross up at all.

 

Incidentally if you do the above 2B/j.B mixup and get the 2B, you can do 2B(1) (notes detonate) 2C 5D dash 5A > whatever.  You can even just do 5AAA 214A 236236B and still have the Analyze for after.

[Complexity]

Fuzzy j.b j.c j.236236c can replace OMC if the opponent is scanned. Don't know if it does more damage though.

[JyakotuKurayami]

Rise is a very weird character to me. I didn't get to play with my waifu a lot, but I think I could do pretty decent with her. Just need to learn what I'm supposed to do with her.

[Justice7541]

Think of her as a setplay character I guess, she has relatively bad damage and short ranges but she's strong once she's in and her momentum carry is super strong.

[Celerity]

Some things I noticed from watching the long set of DIE-chan playing vs Xie and Guymam:

 

-In ~2 hours of play, DIE-chan presses 5B in neutral a total of 3 times, pretty much only when no other move will suffice, like to catch someone as they're landing. Otherwise, IAD j.B was the preferred poke in every situation.

 

-The only 4 moves he used extensively in neutral were: IAD j.B, 236A/B (mostly A),  j.C (surprising to me, but it didn't get beaten a lot, and the persona ended up trading sometimes), and 22X (mostly SB) which he used to control space and also as an anti-air.

 

-He was getting a lot of damage from crossups (or crossovers, at least), and using a route which I didn't know worked: IAD j.B > j.A > 66 5AA > stuff, in order to be close enough to get crouching-only/point blank wallbounce combo. You can fit j.B > j.A > 66 5AA > 5C > 214B > 5AA > 5B > 5C(1) > 22A > j.B > j.D > dj.2B for scan, or j.B > j.A > 66 5AA > 5B > 2B > 5C > 214B > 5AA > 2AB > 236B for note, and it's about the easiest confirm ever.

[Loli Bacon]

Some things I noticed from watching the long set of DIE-chan playing vs Xie and Guymam:

 

-In ~2 hours of play, DIE-chan presses 5B in neutral a total of 3 times, pretty much only when no other move will suffice, like to catch someone as they're landing. Otherwise, IAD j.B was the preferred poke in every situation.

 

-The only 4 moves he used extensively in neutral were: IAD j.B, 236A/B (mostly A),  j.C (surprising to me, but it didn't get beaten a lot, and the persona ended up trading sometimes), and 22X (mostly SB) which he used to control space and also as an anti-air.

 

-He was getting a lot of damage from crossups (or crossovers, at least), and using a route which I didn't know worked: IAD j.B > j.A > 66 5AA > stuff, in order to be close enough to get crouching-only/point blank wallbounce combo. You can fit j.B > j.A > 66 5AA > 5C > 214B > 5AA > 5B > 5C(1) > 22A > j.B > j.D > dj.2B for scan, or j.B > j.A > 66 5AA > 5B > 2B > 5C > 214B > 5AA > 2AB > 236B for note, and it's about the easiest confirm ever.

 

This is how I've been playing her almost exactly. j.B is her best normal, and I was doing 2B > IAD > A+C > j.B > dash > 5AA for cross up combos into confirms. You can bait DPs by jumping backwards instead, and if they respect you enough and won't DP that anymore, you can do 2C to reset. Where is this set?

[Celerity]

It was posted in the video thread: http://www.twitch.tv/xiei/b/565714593

[TD]

I need to see this too. He was a great mitsuru.

Jc moves her back a bit while keeping whatever air options she has left, so it's sort of low committal.

[FlameIce]

Frame Data values I calculated for Rise. Please let me know If anything looks out of place. Everything is from point blank range /as close as possible.

 

Time Till First Active Frame means just that. For example 5A becomes active on frame 6.

 

Move   Time Till First Active Frame     Hit                 Block

5A                     6                                      -3                    -4

2A                     7                                      -2                    -3

5B                     13                                    -17                  -18

2B                      9                                     -9                    -10

5C                     15                                    -5                    -6

2C                     32                                   +40                  +39

5D                     57                                   +30                  +29

 

214A                 14                                   -12                   -13

214B                 24                                  +10                  -24

236A                 16                                  -5                     -6

236B                 27                                  +3                    +2

22A                   29                                  +25                  +7 (First Hit)

22B                   33                                  +25                  +7 (First Hit)

236C                 12                                  +5                    -23

236D                 24                                  +5                    -4

 

jA                     6 

jB                     9

j2B                   16

jC                     13

jD                     56

J236C              13

J236B               24

[LitchiFayeBling]

forgot 5aa and 5aaa

maybe scanned specials

[Celerity]

Some other unofficial frame data was posted a page back, but it looks like what you have matches almost perfectly.

[Complexity]

Scanned 22ab 5aa 214214cd works anywhere on the map and should be airtight after 22ab rising part hits. Something like 2a 5a 2b 22ab 5aa 214214cd is a poor man's way to get a UB setup with only scan.

[Justice7541]

That works without scan midscreen, you only need scan to make it airtight in corner.  Basically 22A+B hits will be airtight on the way down with no gaps so long as you push them back a bit.

[Complexity]

Something like 22ab 5aa OMC rhythm game super right? Try mashing dp and IB during the rhythm game superflash if you are blocking a normal 22ab.

[Justice7541]

Should work even on IB. I'll have to test it later.

[Loli Bacon]

22A+B IB'd > QE/DP works, I tested this a bunch with a friend of mine. Super finnicky, though and if they get hit by the lightning they just end up taking more damage anyway.

[Justice7541]

Are we talking about 22A+B startup or after the lightning comes down? I was trying to IB DP it when I first discovered you could do it and not having much luck, it may be character specific.

[Loli Bacon]

After the lightning comes down. Like, during super flash animation. My friend and I tested it with Chie and while he was able to get it every now and then, it was extremely inconsistent (timing was too dependent on how far I dashed) and because of this we decided it wasn't worth trying simply because mistake = more damage taken. CA Roll + CA + Burst are good options for it, though. I noticed that players tend to mash DP when they thing 22A+B is coming, so mix it up with 2B delay > sweep > combo or 2B IABD to bait DPs to get free damage in and to make them afraid to hit buttons. Her mixup is a lot scarier in awakening because if you don't respond to 22A+B, you're eating 6k.

[Complexity]

IIRC there are 2 DPable spots after the super flash assuming IB. One is where Rise says 'show' and the other is when she says 'idol'. The first spot is char specific for DP but I think the second spot works for every DP.

[Justice7541]

Here's a really strong Rise setup/combo I've been working on.

 

5AA 2A+B 236C+D dash 5C(1) 22A 5C(1) 5D dash 5AA 2A+B (2806 damage) > meaty 236B dash 5AA 2B(1) (note detonates) 22B 5A 2A+B dash 214214C(+D)

 

"Meterless" setup into unblockable using midcombo scan.  Turns out scanned 22B works similar to 22A+B in terms of airtightness so long as you use a note detonation to cover the 22B itself (since it can be crouched to make whiff otherrwise) and the extra stun from sweep is just enough to make the rest airtight.  Mostly the problem here is in the setup combo, the 5C 5D part should be technically universal but it's a bit annoying on certain characters.  Characters with skinnier air hitboxes (Rise, Minazuki, etc.) won't get hit by descending lightning as easily so it's possible that 5C(1) won't combo directly into descending 22A.  For those characters you have to delay the 5C just enough so that the next bolt that comes down still connects without the combo dropping, but if you delay it too much they won't drop enough and you won't be able to 5AA for the knockdown.  Also the sweep ender is a bit tough, you can drop it and just do 5AA > note oki but that costs you about 150 damage.

 

Still a pretty good setup to learn considering.  Getting both midcombo scan and note oki is too strong.  I wonder if there's an easier setup for it though.

[Complexity]

Here's a really strong Rise setup/combo I've been working on.

5AA 2A+B 236C+D dash 5C(1) 22A 5C(1) 5D dash 5AA 2A+B (2806 damage) > meaty 236B dash 5AA 2B(1) (note detonates) 22B 5A 2A+B dash 214214C(+D)

"Meterless" setup into unblockable using midcombo scan. Turns out scanned 22B works similar to 22A+B in terms of airtightness so long as you use a note detonation to cover the 22B itself (since it can be crouched to make whiff otherrwise) and the extra stun from sweep is just enough to make the rest airtight. Mostly the problem here is in the setup combo, the 5C 5D part should be technically universal but it's a bit annoying on certain characters. Characters with skinnier air hitboxes (Rise, Minazuki, etc.) won't get hit by descending lightning as easily so it's possible that 5C(1) won't combo directly into descending 22A. For those characters you have to delay the 5C just enough so that the next bolt that comes down still connects without the combo dropping, but if you delay it too much they won't drop enough and you won't be able to 5AA for the knockdown. Also the sweep ender is a bit tough, you can drop it and just do 5AA > note oki but that costs you about 150 damage.

Still a pretty good setup to learn considering. Getting both midcombo scan and note oki is too strong. I wonder if there's an easier setup for it though.

I think you can't skip the sweep if you want note oki because Himiko is still in recovery from 5d.

[Loli Bacon]

Here's a really strong Rise setup/combo I've been working on.

 

5AA 2A+B 236C+D dash 5C(1) 22A 5C(1) 5D dash 5AA 2A+B (2806 damage) > meaty 236B dash 5AA 2B(1) (note detonates) 22B 5A 2A+B dash 214214C(+D)

 

"Meterless" setup into unblockable using midcombo scan.  Turns out scanned 22B works similar to 22A+B in terms of airtightness so long as you use a note detonation to cover the 22B itself (since it can be crouched to make whiff otherrwise) and the extra stun from sweep is just enough to make the rest airtight.  Mostly the problem here is in the setup combo, the 5C 5D part should be technically universal but it's a bit annoying on certain characters.  Characters with skinnier air hitboxes (Rise, Minazuki, etc.) won't get hit by descending lightning as easily so it's possible that 5C(1) won't combo directly into descending 22A.  For those characters you have to delay the 5C just enough so that the next bolt that comes down still connects without the combo dropping, but if you delay it too much they won't drop enough and you won't be able to 5AA for the knockdown.  Also the sweep ender is a bit tough, you can drop it and just do 5AA > note oki but that costs you about 150 damage.

 

Still a pretty good setup to learn considering.  Getting both midcombo scan and note oki is too strong.  I wonder if there's an easier setup for it though.

 

This is the combo I've been doing, but it often turns into stuff > 5C(1) > 22A > dash 5C(1) > 5D > (too high to 5A) 214A KD

Lots of damage lost, but full screen scan means I can just 236D to get back in.

[Justice7541]

I think you can't skip the sweep if you want note oki because Himiko is still in recovery from 5d.

Yeah, the problem is more that you can't get a perfect 236B note oki if you do just 5AA. I'm trying to figure out how to get the sweep ender consistently on all characters. You can do some really silly stuff using scanned 22B blockstrings, feels like a waste to pass up the setup just because of execution issues.