[P4AU] Marie Gameplay Discussion

[Celerity]

Just to add onto the weather change bit, remember that weather will cycle predictably between rounds. Sunny > cloudy > rainy > snowy > sunny. I feel that sunny and rainy are both kind of "filler", and sunny is especially bad, because 236236C~C deals more damage during rainy weather than 236236C~A deals during sunny weather.

 

Anyway, with this in mind, if the round is almost over and there are more to come, your best bet is probably to change the weather to rainy so that you can lame it out with a huge SP boost in the next one.

[DaGodhand]

I never really thought about it but I can see how she can play similarly to Rachel. I need to get around to playing soon.

 

One thing about rainy weather that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that one magatama from 214214C/D shoots a laser 3 times instead of 2.

[FluxWaveZ]

That weather order can't be right. It isn't the first time this has happened, but after finishing the first round with rain just now, the subsequent round was sunny.

 

Another match and it went from rainy > snow... Actually, rain > snow has happened every other time after I typed this. Dammit, I can't be crazy; I could have sworn it went from rainy > sunny, and it hadn't been the first time.

 

Nope, definitely went from cloudy > snowy just now. There might be some element of randomness going on here or something else.

[Buttface]

Teleport slash isn't difficult to react to, just watch for the black hole during the starting animation. The risk/reward on this move is heavily skewed in your favor, and you can blow up random netplay Minazukis pretty much exclusively by being patient and pressing 2B.

 

His 2D is alright, but if you block it, you can throw down a summon, or use 7j.2B to take out a persona card.

 

Good Minazuki players will probably just stay grounded against you and try to disrupt your zoning, especially since our damage conversion is so bad vs Minazuki on the ground. But unlike most other zoning characters, Marie has good enough buttons to contend with Minazuki's, and a real DP to escape pressure, so I don't think the matchup can be "bad". This is also another matchup where I feel like properly spaced j.D can be very strong, especially behind chocolate.

it's not that the moves themselves are a problem, it's just that he can use them to punish any attempt you make to set something up

 

 

He can throw a knife to cover teleport, that's what I see Minazuki doing 90% of the time.

but on the upside, we can use eyes to block knives

[Anne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuMjp9HxnLc&feature=youtu.be

Bace playing her a bit. Screen pollution is neat, everything else is just okay. She has a couple of issues with buttons vs buttons, her buttons actually aren't as good as they look.

[Celerity]

Just found out you can do 236A(2) > OMC > 9j.2B > delay j.B > j.C > 5AA > etc. for a fuzzy setup against most characters. Combined with the fact that you can OMC before the 2nd hit of 236A too, this makes for a pretty scary mixup.

 

Doesn't work on Liz/Teddie/various Shos and Labri, the usual suspects.

 

Edit: Updated Marie's wiki page with frame data and some basic info. Let me know if anything looks out of place.

[TD]

j2b is an overhead then? I thought it was not.

if so this is good stuff.

[Buttface]

j.2B is a better overhead than j.B except for the startup

her overheads aren't very useful outside of blockstrings, unfortunately

 

 

Updated Marie's wiki page with frame data and some basic info. Let me know if anything looks out of place.

 

Fire Lightning should be Hot Lightning, as that's what the move is called in the Golden, and it's worth noting that when two clouds come out during cloudy weather, the additional cloud hovers over you

 

also here's the backstory in english

[Diveman]

not sure if it's useful and there are probably better oki options in corner, but air hit 2C JC j.C is a safe jump vs most DPs

[Buttface]

looks like 236A isn't actually good for blockstrings, since there's a gap between the two hits that's long enough for a DP

 

Also Yukari's arrows get their durability back if they pass through a wind ball after passing through an eye

[Surf]

not sure if it's useful and there are probably better oki options in corner, but air hit 2C JC j.C is a safe jump vs most DPs

 

2C > Delay (iad) j.B > 4A is a better option. j.C's hitstop is too small to actually safejump reliably with. Airdash j.C is good to use after 236A enders midscreen though. But I only do that because they're usually too far for a meaty iad j.B

 

I played her offline for a couple hours earlier and I'm starting to get the feel of things, did like 60+ matches. Annel is right in that her buttons are honestly not as great as they look. I fought Ken, Yu, Slab, Shadow Mitsuru, and Yukari. And the hardest matchup was Ken because his normals would outright beat mine and Koromaru or Ken 236A/B/iad j.B would kill any attempt at setting up in neutral. Only chances I got to put things up were on knockdown. But I later learned resetting it back to neutral against him isnt the best idea. Feel like it's a matchup where you have to stay ontop of Ken the entire time. Snow helps for mixup and 236CD is great to use since trying to poke against him usually doesn't end well. 2D helped in the Ken matchup alot for when they would sit almost full screen and try to command Koromaru. The arrows would either hit Koro or get Ken to block, stopping Koromaru's attack.

 

Igor helped a lot later in the night when my opponent would just iad and press something when they saw her reaching in her bag. I'm really glad she has a move to purposefully stop the opponent from doing that. Eyes are a great defensive tool because if your caught blocking and they're out, the suction will usually screw up the opponents strings. Making something whiff. I'd then whiff punish with 5/2C. 236236C is an amazing tool to do full screen punishes with and can go into major damage by itself with sunny or rainy. Or you could always just change the weather into something that makes the matchup more manageable.

 

214A stance cancels are a great way to end pressure or to bait our whatever the opponent is doing. It's extremely potent in the corner. Once they start getting antsy to press buttons you can start frametrapping between 5B/5C/2C to gain respect again. Also be mindful of people doing run up grab on you. Wither you tech it or not, it'll have what you placed on screen go away. Situations similar to how players will grab Rachel to get rid of George or pumpkin(?). But if you see them doing that just set up some chocolate after knockdown and be prepared to stuff a roll/jump in attempt. If they sit and block, go in

[TD]

She is good because her traps can't be killed and they serve purposes similar to Rachel's summons. Except her chocolate can't be killed and she doesn't have a projectile that moves with her (though clouds come very close to this). Her anti punish moves are also legit. Looks like she was given just the right tools, not to powerful but certainly strong.

[Wild Candy]

I'm going to say based on some observations

 

Marie's AA's are VERY Strong, her 5B, 2B, 5C, and possibly 2C definitely keep air borne opponents from approaching. 

 

Her j.C Seems to be REALLY Effective for safe jumps, and it seems really good for spacing and such. 

 

her zoning tools are really decent, but I feel like she's kinda outclassed by Yukiko and Yukari when it comes to pure zoning. Most of the time I'm using summons and j.C to approach the the opponent and start pressure.

 

I unfortunately haven't found a lot of use for 214C/D since the small hit box on the detonation seems hard to make use of. None the less, it's decent for it's vacuum effect and projectile appetite.

 

I think the only tools Marie has I don't really make much use of are D because the lack of versatility on spears, Igor-In-A-Bog because of how situational it is, and Shell of Rejection since it seems outclassed by 236236C/D in terms of a finisher

 

Overall, I think she's really solid though.  

[Surf]

She is good because her traps can't be killed and they serve purposes similar to Rachel's summons. Except her chocolate can't be killed and she doesn't have a projectile that moves with her (though clouds come very close to this). Her anti punish moves are also legit. Looks like she was given just the right tools, not to powerful but certainly strong.

 

Last night vs the Ken I noticed that Koromaru bounced the present away when he hit it. Which surprised the hell out of me. I think hitbox it may come in contact with may hit it away. Just doesn't happen often because most things don't hit the ground that low. And in the mirror match when present collides with itself both of them just jump into each other and don't move

[Buttface]

looks like most sweeps low profile her 5B for a nice CH

 

I was also wrong about her 236A being DPable between hits, that's only if they IB the first hit

 

Her sweep is safe on block too, so that's another way to end blockstrings if you don't want to take the risk

[MegaBlues]

Marie's 5B might be Chest property, if sweeps go through it.

[Buttface]

236A/B~C whiffs completely on Kanji, Sho, Labrys, Teddie, and Junpei unless they're jumping

it whiffs on Rise unless she's as close to you as possible or jumping

which sucks because our only other FC is 5BB

[FlameIce]

Here is some frame data from my notes. includes Ground Normals, Ground Specials, Ground EX Moves, Air Normals, Air Specials Move, and Air Ex Moves.

 

Time Till First Active Frame means the time it takes for the move to become active. So for 5A it becomes active on frame 6. 

Knockdown Advantage(Neutral Tech) means the amount of advantage you have if you let the opponent neutral tech.

 

At the bottom I also included some data for the chocolate move. The Time Till First Active Frame for her chocolate move includes the time it takes for you to set the trap, the time it takes for it to appear, and go off. I'm 100% confident on those values so I highlighted it in red. There is a slim chance I might be a frame or two off. 

 

For her traps I included the Time it Takes For You to Recover if you decide to set one. 

 

Please let me know if anything seems off so I can correct my self. Hopefully I entered everything correctly lol.

 

I'll do her supers at a later date. I want to fool around with the engine more so I can be confident in the values I calculate for her supers. 

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NSjskH8nkYUg487mSY5VeS8L85Z6AVwY2gfN8plzOZk/edit?pli=1#gid=2133502340

 

Edit: Sorry for the formatting error. Instead I linked a google doc. That should make things easier.

[Buttface]

depending on character and range, Marie's 236236C/D/CD can be punished with an instant kill buffered during superflash if used raw

 

For example

Minazuki can't

Yosuke and Marie can if they're close

Yu can from fullscreen

 

don't know about anyone else

[Celerity]

Here is some frame data from my notes. includes Ground Normals, Ground Specials, Ground EX Moves, Air Normals, Air Specials Move, and Air Ex Moves.

 

...

 

Thank you for compiling this. The difficult part for me to understand from Maven's frame data was the difference between all the variations of 214X and 214X~C and feinting, etc., which I don't see listed in your spreadsheet. More specifically, I would like to know the total recovery for:

 

-214A~X as fast as possible (52F?)

-214B~X as fast as possible (52F?)

-214X~C as fast as possible (startup+recovery both needed)

-214A~D as fast as possible

-214A/B max time with no other inputs

[Buttface]

looks like 52F, 52F, 20F startup/52F start to finish, 22F, 82F respectively

[Surf]

More matches I do the more I think next round weather change may be percentage based based on the weather you had before the round is over. Like Celerity mentioned earlier, ending in Rainy or Cloudy raises the chance of having the next round be Snow by quit a lot. Testing through matches, I think Snows percentage is higher when a match ends in Cloudy. For me anyway. I've been ending in Rainy hoping to get Snow the next round and it just becomes Sunny again. I don't think she can go from Sunny to Snow either. If she does the percentage for it happening is extremely small. I also can't recall Rainy > Cloudy happening. The number of rounds that have transpired may also have some influence over it. Say I win the first round and end it in Cloudy/Rainy hoping for Snow. But the next round ends up being Sunny. But if I were to do the same thing on the second match (meaning I lost one) Snow, would almost always happen

 

This is just me hypothesizing but I think it may go somewhere along the lines of

 

Sunny > Rainy/Cloudy

Cloudy > Rainy/Snow

Rainy > Sunny/Snow

Snow > Sunny/Cloudy

 

Edit: Fast forwarding through my replays, I'm pretty certain those pairing are right

[Buttface]

236A>IAD>j.B pressure is pretty good but not perfect

you can be hit when you try to airdash 

SB chocolate autocorrects direction if the opponent jumps over it or rolls through it. definitely lasts longer before automatically opening, too

no idea about clouds

[Buttface]

OOOH

OH DAMN

SB CLOUD SHOCKS EVEN ON BLOCK
 

[WindmanV3]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but how does one go about mounting any sort of offense when the situation calls for it? Should I be looking for 5BB punishes? Poke with some 5A's?

How about defense? Do I want to look for DP punishes and the occasional 5BB to stop any anti-airs?

 

I've found myself on the receiving end of quite a lot of losses because I am lacking in both departments with this character. Not sure if anyone else has experienced that yet.

 

 

Also, this might not be the best thread to ask, but I haven't seen a "Critique" thread yet, so hence me posting in what I thought was the second best thread...