[P4AU] Marie Gameplay Discussion

[Phones01]

Thnx buttface for the dittos, im still not used to her yet. I feel anti airing her j.c with Igor and 2b are way too difficult but dp, cloud, and maybe 5b will.be the go to anti air.

[TD]

My stupid ps3 is being well, stupid and I haven't had a chance to play the game past day 3 Marie. However I've been doing theory craft which I'm sure isn't too far from the real factual data.

Marie is supposed to create necessary space to setup a summon. She will do this using her longest pokes sweep, 5b, jb; her anti airs as the situations arises mainly 2b but 5c and 2c can be used as well; as well as good movement which is general movement and using jc to move around as well. Should be noted, she actually has a lot of anti airs, though further testing will dictate the strongest which right now IMO is 2b.

Once space is given via combo or the foe can't get in or can't do anything full screen, you can setup. Chocolate has a ton of horizontal movement and not a lot of things can beat it, but be wary of rolls and jump overs. Marie has answers to these. There are certain other things that beat it like koromaru like surf said or another piece of chocolate. On hit or block you can literally do whatever the hell you want.

Cloud simply advises against jumps, aiding chocolate tremendously. Can shock, also aids chocolate quite a lot. Great summon

Eye sucks or pulls the foe away ever so gently which is a passive effect that is good defensively. Also explodes after 4 seconds which is a bit less useful but still good. The eye absorbs projectiles which basically gives her free setup passes against many cast members trying to disrupt her with projectiles.

Weather is passive and deserves it's own strategy. Overall no weather hurts Marie and only gets better once you start using your favorite one/ one best suited for the matchup.

Anything after that, I haven't the smallest clue. No one is posting match videos I'm going to go home and Olaf with my ps3 to get persona running again, see of that helps and then I can give more info. I do believe though that Marie is straightforward but there are so many variations to achieve her goals which makes her very diverse.

[Buttface]

Thnx buttface for the dittos, im still not used to her yet. I feel anti airing her j.c with Igor and 2b are way too difficult but dp, cloud, and maybe 5b will.be the go to anti air.

the timing for 2B punish gets easier once you practice with it in training, but DP is probably the next best alternative

2B has that weird invuln and you can combo after it, you can't combo off DP besides into Shell of Rejection

 

 

Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but how does one go about mounting any sort of offense when the situation calls for it? Should I be looking for 5BB punishes? Poke with some 5A's?

How about defense? Do I want to look for DP punishes and the occasional 5BB to stop any anti-airs?

 

I've found myself on the receiving end of quite a lot of losses because I am lacking in both departments with this character. Not sure if anyone else has experienced that yet.

 

 

Also, this might not be the best thread to ask, but I haven't seen a "Critique" thread yet, so hence me posting in what I thought was the second best thread...

j.C, but don't spam it like I'm guilty of, 5C>236C is a good way to catch people off guard from far away, 5B every once in a while works well too

 

use eyes to stop projectiles, clouds and chocolate to keep them limited in how they approach, 236CD is a nice fullscreen poke or punish, her DP is good but really easy to punish so don't make it to big of a habit, 5D/2D/j.D can help keep the opponent away and can also mix them up if they expect you to j.C, making them whiff a punish attempt

SB items are great because of the shock on block and direction correcting

 

 

 

 

 

SB clouds just shock on block, nothing else seems different

SB chocolate lasts way longer before auto opening if it auto opens at all, and it changes direction if they roll through or jump over it 

[Celerity]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but how does one go about mounting any sort of offense when the situation calls for it? Should I be looking for 5BB punishes? Poke with some 5A's?

How about defense? Do I want to look for DP punishes and the occasional 5BB to stop any anti-airs?

 

 

I'm still playing her pretty defensively for the most part. It's definitely not optimal in every situation, but I think it's kind of important to see what you can get away with on a new character, and her zoning really isn't that bad. 214C/D is highly underrated(?) right now, I feel. It's the gateway to all of your other traps, especially cloud, which is kind of difficult to find the time to set up otherwise. You can throw out a 214C and utilize your pokes behind it, maybe throw in a j.D or 236CD, summon a cloud when the eye is about to detonate, then repeat the process and go for chocolate. Eventually they will either get hit by something or eat a ton of blockstun (chocolate, eye, or a D normal) which gives you the opportunity to go in.

 

The zoning approach doesn't work so well against characters like Mitsuru and Ken, and Marie seems to be a very matchup-driven character, so you're going to have to make a lot of adjustments based on that. My issue with being too aggressive with her is that if you don't have the opponent locked down properly, you're not accomplishing much, and you don't exactly have the best options to reset your pressure without spending meter.  I usually default to the mindset of keeping a safe advantage with space and traps, rather than risking my position with mediocre pressure that often just puts me back at neutral, or worse.

 

Marie's oki and damage in the corner is really good, though, so if you get them into the corner you should definitely try to keep them there as long as possible, especially with 214AB under cloudy weather, or Bright Arrow in awakening.

 

 

Also, this might not be the best thread to ask, but I haven't seen a "Critique" thread yet, so hence me posting in what I thought was the second best thread...

 

 

I find that critique threads usually die out pretty quickly, and I want to promote moving a lot of that type of discussion into the matchup threads where it will be better organized. Your questions are also just fine for general gameplay discussion, but I'll start a critique thread if there's demand for it.

[Buttface]

Resetting pressure is actually pretty easy with an airdash>j.B off a blocked 236A

best bit is depending on how high you are when you airdash, you can "feint" a j.2B after the j.B

the animation will start but you'll hit the ground before it finishes, and you can go straight into a 5A low

[Surf]

3 worst matchups I've done so far are Ken, Mitsuru, and Liz. And all 3 of them are somewhat for the same reasons. You can't set up against them because its too dangerous and they have normals that easily stuff j.C, even on air to air. Once you get a confirm you pretty much just have to go in and try to end it as fast as possible. In my notes, I have these 3, and a couple other characters, under Snow weather. The added meter will help with 214AB and 236CD to gain at least some sort of momentum (I honestly feel her SB moves are some of the best in the game). You'll also have meter for super enders often and OMC 5BB mixup attempts. But you have to make the decision to change the weather manually the first match and risk not having it the second match, since you might not be able to end the first match with super. Ending in snow risks the next matchup being Sunny, which doesn't help with the neutral game at all. Cloudy helps, but the main problems with these matchups is that Cloud/getting shocked don't hinder the characters. Ken can still poke 3/4's of the screen away and summon Koro despite being shocked. Mitsuru can just drill the shit out of you and take a chunk of damage away if your just an inch too close. And Liz can just sit there and Zio if you try to setup anything. And Zio kills eyes immediately so they're useless. If anything if they do become shocked, you can confirm with 2C if your close enough and transition into safejump and start your offense. If your too far and still too wary to approach despite them being shocked then try to get a chocolate out and follow behind it

 

From my earlier list, if your hoping for a round in Snow, make sure to end your first round in Cloudy. The next round will be either Rainy or Snow. If its Rainy your guaranteed Snow in the 3rd round since I don't think weathers repeat twice by themselves in one match. If you want Snow a second time it'll have to be manually

 

I actually need to use 214AB more, saves alot of set up time. And I honestly didn't know chocolate auto corrects and cloud shocks on block 

[Balguna]

I've played a few Maries, and while I don't think most of them were playing optimally I feel Teddie could be a rough match-up for her. His item tossing is better if less reliable, his normals have better range, and j.C approaches can be reacted to with 5B/2B without too much difficulty. While Teddie Decoy has been notably nerfed, it still gives him a free exit out of items if necessary.

[Celerity]

Resetting pressure is actually pretty easy with an airdash>j.B off a blocked 236A

best bit is depending on how high you are when you airdash, you can "feint" a j.2B after the j.B

the animation will start but you'll hit the ground before it finishes, and you can go straight into a 5A low

 

Why would they not just 2B you on reaction in this situation? I think resetting pressure this way is way too slow/risky since you have no options for baiting their best answer.

 

Also, 236A > airdash j.B whiffs on crouchers, you would need to do j.2B instead.

[Buttface]

Why would they not just 2B you on reaction in this situation? I think resetting pressure this way is way too slow/risky since you have no options for baiting their best answer.

 

Also, 236A > airdash j.B whiffs on crouchers, you would need to do j.2B instead.

ah, shit, didn't realize there was enough time for a 2B on reaction

 

 

reseting with 5B or 5A after blocked sweep seems a lot better anyway

you aren't airborne so you can safely bait stuff, and there's a lot less time for them to react

 

If you do 5AA>5B>2AB you can reset with 5A, if you throw in a 5C or 2B, you have to use 5B

[Buttface]

looks like chocolate is projectile property, becasuse I just saw a Junpei bat one of the hits

 

also apparently this is somehow possible

 

[Tae Seong Kim]

Haha, you can totally make her 2A+B barely plus on block by canceling into 214A+B ~ D. Used it for throw setup and Burst bait. Lol! Wish I the normal ones cancel just as fast...

[Justice7541]

Why would they not just 2B you on reaction in this situation? I think resetting pressure this way is way too slow/risky since you have no options for baiting their best answer.

 

Also, 236A > airdash j.B whiffs on crouchers, you would need to do j.2B instead.

 

Still valid on Yukiko/Yukari/anyone else who doesn't have a real AA.

[Celerity]

Still valid on Yukiko/Yukari/anyone else who doesn't have a real AA.

 

In the corner maybe, but back jump j.2B is Yukari's typical response to stuff like this, and I'm pretty sure it beats anything Marie can do in that spot aside from a yomi card toss.

 

Also, empty jump low is so slow from the IAD that you can likely just block high and throw out a 2A to option select both halves of the "mixup".

[Justice7541]

How can you block high and 2A at the same time?  You mean 5A maybe?

[Celerity]

How can you block high and 2A at the same time?  You mean 5A maybe?

 

The difference in timing between IAD j.2B and land 5A is very large, ~10F at least, so you can fuzzy it by blocking high for a bit and then blocking low or throwing out any poke. In Yukari's case, it would be 2A.

 

I mean, it's not a real pressure reset, it's just a random IAD in neutral. Yukari's tools aren't so bad that she can't deal with this.

[Buttface]

I never really meant that it was the best or even a particularly good option, just that it exists.

It's about as good as moonsaulting over someone when they block a dash spring with Yosuke

You can always be punished for it, but if you only throw it out every once in a while after training them to not expect it, you can catch some people off guard

 

the 5A/5B reset off sweep is much better

[Buttface]

I was definitely wrong about Marie's j.C being plus

it's -5, so there's a single frame for a few characters to get a CH 5A or command grab in Kanji and Minazuki's cases

all depends on how long it's already been active when you hit them 

 

If it finishes its active frames while still in the air, you'll definitely be safe

[Buttface]

sweep into slightly delayed hop j.C feels decent as an oki tool. They don't have the time to 2B it, and they have a very small window to DP out

[TD]

Are there any more videos of Marie matches on YouTube/twitch/nico/some other site? I'm not finding any, sadly. Its surprising jp players haven't uploaded a compilation of their best Marie or a good one playing yet, because it seems they love to do so and has even done so with adachi. Anyway, I'll keep looking, but just wanted to ask you guys.

[Buttface]

trying to test out how to use the eyes in corner blockstrings to make use of the extra blockstun

2AB>214C>5A>5AA>5B>5C>236A>214C auto detonate

is really good, you can j.662B and have it be completely gapless or other mixup shenanigans 

I'll make a video tomorrow to show what I'm talking about 

 

video:

http://youtu.be/jrbB84-SXpc

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Are there any more videos of Marie matches on YouTube/twitch/nico/some other site? I'm not finding any, sadly. Its surprising jp players haven't uploaded a compilation of their best Marie or a good one playing yet, because it seems they love to do so and has even done so with adachi. Anyway, I'll keep looking, but just wanted to ask you guys.

 

I've seen one or two people on last weekend's RebelUp stream and Brett's Online tourny playing Marie but that's about it.

 

That said, you can always look for matches on the match database on horibuna for Niconico stuff. Here's Marie's page if you're intereseted

[CageRedfield]

So I'm not sure if I'm dumb or if this is actually the case, but it feels like the time it takes to tech is longer/shorter depending which weather is used in 236236C/C+D. Like, it feels like you have no time to set anything up after Level 2 Rain but Level 2 Snow (depending on how long it takes them to get out of ice) grants a free 236D or sweep xx present. I supposed the best to set stuff up with be Level 2 Cloudy since they're shocked, but I really don't like having to look out for reversal/rolling away. Keep in mind, this is all with 236236C/C+D used at the end of a combo. I doubt it changes much if you somehow hit them raw with the super, but it might and it probably doesn't matter.

[Buttface]

you're definitely right, there's a notable difference. 

 

Also, the update today added a color differentiation for presents

chocolate and clouds are different colors than they used to be if you're on player 2 side

[SolAscension]

edit: original post was on something I thought I'd found, but ended up finding it being discussed a few pages back.

 

So with that, hello!

 

Was curious what projectiles you guys have found Marie's 214 c/d effective against blocking? 

[CageRedfield]

Not sure how good this might be but

Any juggle combo that uses the 5BB 2B 5C 2C route allows for a safe hop or a free 236D in either the midscreen area or in the corner. If they delay tech, you have time to recover from 236D/the hop and punish or pressure them afterwards. If certain characters wakeup and reversal with a stationary DP/reversal super, they get counter-hit by the magatama and you're in the perfect range for 5B conversions. You can probably setup a SP eye, make them block and detonate it if you want to use it that.

EDIT: So SP Eye setups off this are only possible in the corner and aren't guaranteed. Doing something like 5BB 2B 5C 2C xx SP Eye, dash up 5AA 5B 5C 2C xx Detonate SP Eye (as a blockstring) has a really tight window for them to reversal out, but it's still possible.