[CT] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Id_asz]

I was thinking of picking up Bang, I'm not ready to drop Carl, yet. BTW, Carl v. Carl matches are really really cool. GL finding 2 Carl players, though.

[JinSaotome]

Yeah, I'm still highly interested in Carl, but from the sounds of it, he has issues with quite a few characters

[FoxSpirit]

The REAL problem is... ArcSys released two Carl BnBs which lead to the now known loop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnem-4t1yTs). One from jab if the characters is sandwiched, and one from throw where it doesn't matter where Nirvana is because it involves the teleport of Nirvana.

Even Dio didn't use it so far though he got into the right situation plenty of times in this match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjYKwvW5Rzc

Well, not so much in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGmhWLK-y-w

Well, he already did well without it, can't wait to see what happens when he finds this out

Just wait and watch and don't despair

[Zeero]

i dont think you can loop the combo from the jab startup because theres too many hits and hitstun is reduced. At least thats what i would assume since the loop from throw we can't do more than 3 loops else its techable... which rsults to about 10hits... it doesnt even seem like you're in the position to do an actual loop either. If they cant ground tech afterwards then its okay, because you get an oki game. But really, damage wise and position wise, it makes no difference than to keep doing the DIO loop until it doesnt work anymore. That was still like 1.8k damage, opponent still sandwiched, and still techable so they can get away. Looping from throws we already know about, but like i've said many times, throwing is kinda hard to pull off with carl because of he has to hop to throw with his extremely short range (the 6B~C kara throw helps, now i can actually do 2a 6B~C kara, i tried before doing 2a -> throw and the throw whiffed). Im happy about the new combos tho. might spark new ideas.

[FoxSpirit]

Well, you can only do the loop 3 times but it was never teched, the oponent just fell down after the 3rd rep... and yeah, after the loop fall down, no groundtech either. At least from what we saw. So I think the combo in the BnB will give you the loop in the end... or there is some weird limiter since in the vid, the other guy also feel straight to the ground. But the spacing after the dash seems perfect for the loop. Just my observations, though.

[Alternate275]

Man I Like Carl's Throw! =o

[Zeero]

me too! i just cant ever get it in because of the range and the ease of teching throws in this game.

[Alternate275]

the ease of teching throws in this game.

D***it! That's what I was afraid of

Question... Is it as easy as throw escaping in kof?

[squirrel]

Well I suppose you guys will just have to get used to using throw attempts as counterattacks, since counter-throws can't be escaped. Ugh, all that stuff about Carl suckage is very discouraging. I (like everyone) had really high hopes for him. There WILL be stubbourn players who insist on playing him though. I'd be one of them if I wasn't content with Taokaka.

[Id_asz]

D***it! That's what I was afraid of

Question... Is it as easy as throw escaping in kof?

idk how easy it is to tech out of Kof throws, but BB is definitely the easiest in terms of throw teching I've ever seen.

That being said, you can only throw tech on a throw mid-combo, so it's really not all that bad.

Carl can air-throw into another air-throw and keep going until his opponent techs out. I got someone with 5 or 6 of these in a row once.

[FoxSpirit]

Hint: throw breaks in the corner are a serious disadvantage to the escapee. Not counting that Nirvana could probably catch you during the escap sequence... unless she quits movement once a throw is initiated.

[magz]

me too!

i just cant ever get it in because of the range and the ease of teching throws in this game.

In regards to the range, Carl has the longest kara throw in the game with 6B + C.

[Zeero]

Shortest range (not to mention the momentumless hop) with longest kara only balances it out to a below average if not average throw range with extra effort on our part. I once tried dash 2a throw and it whiffed. I have to kara it for it to work. While i see other people dashing in 2a 2a and throw with no problem (probably coz they also have that dash momentum). anyway, dash throwing with carl is probably not the best way to throw like most characters. You'll probably want to throw sometime when you got them in the middle of you and nirvana (easier to do 2c 8d loop as well)

[Bloodcrave]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5431640

best carl we've seen?

[Zeero]

I take my words back about the way to end the loop with 623C 8D 236B its actually really good position wise if you hold D if they tech neutral, you can continue looping if they tech towards carl, you can continue looping if they tech towards nirvana, you can do 6D then 236B again and then continue looping. Not bad at all. Another thing i noticed today. IAD sucks with Carl. I don't know if its just me, but people today CROUCHED under my IAD C (and its already our lowest hitting move) all day. Then when you whiff the C, you IAD too far for you to do anything except 5B, which for me got beaten by everybody else's move. Now i know why j2c exists. Oh, also. Depending on what Nirvana was doing before she gets hit, the recovery time for her is different. I tried getting hit while doing 41236D and it took forever for her to recover but just walking into the same hit was almost instant recovery. like you see her stop walking, then shes walking again. So maybe you can even try to let her purposely take a hit from just walking then do the move (6d?) while your opponent is recovering from whatever move he hit nivana with

[NamelessCounter]

Today i learned a lesson.

Theres a reason why the japanese gave up on Carl.

And its because hes that shitty.

What kind of character can't hit crouching opponents if he air dashes?? but not only that, he also lands outside of his reach to do anything.

Theres also a reason why only Ragna and Rachel has Astral finishes, and thats because they're the only characters worth using in the game.

This game is going to die in japan within 2 months. Bet it

informative

[FoxSpirit]

Let him be alone with his pain. ...also, that was some nice Carl in that vid.

[Leebee]

I could care less about a lot of the crap stuff that Carl's got, but whose brilliant idea was it to make Litch's staff beatup super do like 4000 damage and carl's nirvana rush do like... 2000

[magz]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5431640

best carl we've seen?

The use of j2c during the 6D sandwich loop/mixup seems to be very effective. It seems that, at a certain height at least, you don't bounce up from hitting with j2c and instead land.

I don't know about the usage of 6B over 5C but perhaps it can be useful for reset purposes and that's why he chose it.

2:08 - Also, the baiting of his opponent with Nirvana into crossup j.C into 6D loop was also nicely done.

If memory serves, Murasaki (Carl in the vid) was a Bridget player in AC?

[Alternate275]

Hint: throw breaks in the corner are a serious disadvantage to the escapee. Not counting that Nirvana could probably catch you during the escap sequence... unless she quits movement once a throw is initiated.

Wait, during throws, can you control Nirvana?

I take my words back about the way to end the loop with 623C 8D 236B

its actually really good position wise if you hold D

if they tech neutral, you can continue looping

if they tech towards carl, you can continue looping

if they tech towards nirvana, you can do 6D then 236B again and then continue looping.

Not bad at all.

So basically, if you're worth your salt... You keep looping? xD

[Zeero]

seriously im getting pissed off at NamelessCounter because hes quoting my rants which i do in my own local matchup thread to my friends who check out that thread. Its not like im posting it here (in fact, if you've thread through this whole thread, i personally believe the stuff i post is actually carl related and useful here). I honestly believe that i can post whatever i want on my matchup forum because everybody knows everybody else and we talk shit all day there anyway, but he obviously thinks otherwise. I'm still going to rant on Carl on that thread whenever i feel like it, if he decides to quote it here for no other reason other than his stupidity, then i can't help it. Ignore his quotes or something if ur tired of my rants. If you find MY posts HERE uninformative, then thats another issue. But anyway back to topic @Alternate275 Pretty much... The only way i really could win last night was to have people stuck in between Carl and Nirvana and just keep trying to do 2a 5a 5b 5c 6d loop and keep resetting it with overhead or purposely mistime nirvana to let the combo go and just keep trying to land hits. Also throwing into 2C8D loop because they're already in between nirvana and Carl so the loop is pretty easy if you got the 2C8D timing down. Lets face it, Carl is nowhere near as dangerous unless you keep them in between Carl and Nirvana. Even when i got them in the corner with nirvana right behind me, theres nowhere near as much pressure as you can do when they're in between. @magz I didn't watch the vid yet so i'm not sure what you're talking about 6b over 5c, but from last night, when people FD the whole 2a 5a 5b 5c (6d), it pushes you pretty far away for your next 2a and sometimes they can jump out. Using 6b puts you closer to the opponent allowing you to do 2a quicker. edit: wow that carl is really good. I especially like how he constantly has D button held down and put the stick in neutral to evade hits (then do a super) good stuff that or he actually released D since the super is pretty quick startup. Another thing that might help: if you do 5b 5b, it actually because 5b 6b. So if you're doing the loop with 5b 6b, you can do 2a 5a 4b 4b (4 moves nirvana closer to opponent and you while holding 6 moves her further away) then push 6 and release D.

[squirrel]

That loop against Tager in the second round of the first match was just beautiful. Carl may suck, but he's amazing to watch in the hands of a good player. Faults aside, It at least looks like people will be able to make him work. Oh and Zeero: I believe Arakune is a high-tier contender who doesn't have an astral finish. Same for Jin and Tao. But I know you were just being sarcastic. Still, everybody whines about Arakune more than they do about Ragna.

[Alternate275]

So from what I'm starting to picture is that it seems like the general play style is to use gimmicks until you can the opponent inbetween Nirvana and Carl, since that is where Carl is playing at his strongest.

[magz]

@magz

I didn't watch the vid yet so i'm not sure what you're talking about 6b over 5c, but from last night, when people FD the whole 2a 5a 5b 5c (6d), it pushes you pretty far away for your next 2a and sometimes they can jump out. Using 6b puts you closer to the opponent allowing you to do 2a quicker.

I meant it for the part where he did 6b over 5c on hit.

[Zeero]

I meant it for the part where he did 6b over 5c on hit.

same theory perhaps?

Definately Carl is MUCH MORE competitive when you've got gimmicks to get your opponent in between. One such gimmick would be to do something like

2a 5b 6b 623C 22d 236b

instead of going for the 4 extra hits in the combo, you roll making your opponent fall in between...

Thats what i do sometimes but its not too effective (after a while, people just airdash after teching out of the middle), thinking of ways to make it more effective.

I probably have to do the 22d along with 2a then hold D somewhere in there and make nirvana do 8D so when they tech, they block it or something... but all theory fighting for now.

edit:

Forgot to mention, Carl's DAA is his 6C... which has pretty shit range. So use it wisely